Originally posted by DarthAnt66Some notes:
Lmfao, no he doesn't. He's on the floor and Palpatine blasts him with lightning. He wonders why he didn't use a barrier and realizes Plagueis is trying to use MM. Palpatine proceeds to torture the **** out of him as Plagueis slowly dies.We also don't know the amount of concentration needed for Plagueis to do this, so saying he could in combat while also, say, dueling and whatnot is pretty absurd.
-Plagueis is drunk
-He is attacked in his sleep
-He is slowly suffocating from the onset of the battle because the lightning grounds itself on his breathing device
-He at no point erects a barrier
-As a result of his suffocation, his muscles, brain, heart(s) and lungs are all being starved of vital oxygen, so all of his critical systems will be failing, his vision will be fogging over, his movement will be impaired, his vital organs including his brain are suffering permanent damage (as Sidious notes) etc
Now read this:
Crackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun's breathing device. Plagueis's eyes snapped open, the Force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who had survived assassinations and killed countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn't be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place. Momentarily taken aback, Sidious stood absolutely still. Was Plagueis so self-deluded as to believe that he had achieved immortality?The question lingered for only a moment, then Sidious unleashed another tangle of lightning, drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had.
[...]
Still struggling for breath, Plagueis managed to stand, but only to collapse back onto the couch, knocking a statue from its perch. Sidious moved in, his hands upraised to deliver another bolt, his expression arctic enough to chill the room. A Force storm gathered over the couch, spreading out in concentric rings, to wash over Sidious and hurl objects to all corners. In the center of it, Plagueis's form became anamorphic, then resumed shape as the storm began to wane.
[...]
Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. "Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis." He held his thumb and forefinger close together. "Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you."Plagueis gulped for air and lifted an arm toward him.
"There's the rub, you see," Sidious said in a philosophical tone. "All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life... They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midi-chlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them.
Hatred stained Sidious's eyes.
"I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis. I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain. But I'll do no such thing. The idea here is not to drag you back at the last moment, but to bring you to death's door and shove you through to the other side."
Sidious sighed. "A tragedy, really, for one so wise. One who could oversee the lives and deaths of all beings, except himself."
The Muun's eyes had begun to bulge; his pale flesh, to turn cyanotic."
So some observations that are important. Sidious tried his hardest, harder than he ever had, to kill Plagueis with lightning. Yet, Plagueis is healing through it, and Sidious notes this. But Sidious also mentions repeatedly, and it's noted in the text, that Plagueis cannot heal himself if he is starved of oxygen, and indeed, he is starved of oxygen from the very beginning of the fight. All of the damage done to Plagueis is described by Sidious and the narrator in terms of oxygen deprivation. Sidious' victory is described entirely in terms of him choking Plagueis to death. Sidious dispenses with the lightning even though he put his full effort into using it, and then adjusts his strategy to starving him of air. And he attributes Plagueis' failure to heal himself not in terms of a lack of ability, but because he can't do it if he's choking to death.
Concentration needed? Well there's a passive and an active element to it. Passively, Plagueis is always combating aging/tissue damage and increasing his midichlorian count, as noted earlier in the book. He can then speed by this up by tasking his midichlorians to heal tissue, and they'll do it in the background for him, as Sidious notes "retask your body to undo the damage already done" - and there's also an active element, which we see when Plagueis doesn't defend himself but simply heals himself through Sidious' lightning.
It's much the same as Krayt's dark transfer in terms of combat. You take a second out of combat, heal, and get back to it. Although there's also an element where it runs in the background.
The idea that he can heal himself while creating a Force storm, while ambushed, drunk and oxygen starved, but he won't be able to with the full range of his abilities and perfect health, which would involve less than a second out of combat, is pretty absurd to say the least. It would be the same as any other Force user, except he can be healing while he erects a barrier or retreats. He can be healing while he's fighting with a lightsaber.
Originally posted by ILS
Valk's only saving grace is that he's a spirit which makes him harder to kill, but given that even Kun could destroy spirits, I doubt Plagueis will be incapable. Nor do I think Valk has a way to put him down realistically before he expends himself.
This is another misconception that needs to die. Valkorion has never been seen as an independent spirit on a non-nexus environment. Every single planet he's been on in his entire life was a Force nexus, save for the Asylum but he was tied to the Outlander then, so that doesn't count. It's a general rule of thumb that dark side spirits require external sustenance to maintain their presence in the physical realm lest they dissipate into the void, and nothing Valkorion has makes me think he's an exception.
Each dark side spirit has a focal point of power that anchors it in the physical world. For example, the interred Sith Lords of Korriban use their burial sarcophagi to hold their spirits for millennia after death. Freedon Nadd clung to his tomb for countless centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to turn his successor to the dark side. Exar Kun - who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity - resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.
The Dark Side Sourcebook
"Don't be so surprised. Where you [The Outlander] go I go. We are indivisible now."
--Valkorion
The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire
Even though the planet is bristling with the energy of the dark side, it is the Imperial military that has the largest visible presence on Dromund Kaas.
The Old Republic Holonet
The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet—a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.
The Old Republic: Revan
Hundreds of years ago, the Sith Emperor ordered the construction of the Dark Temple as a burial place for his dead and defeated enemies, "to aid them in becoming one with the Force." Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy, and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers.
Although the Dark Temple grounds have always been a dangerous place for the weak-willed (the expansion of the Kaas City power grid into tunnels beneath the temple drove a thousand slaves mad), the temple itself remained sealed until recently, when an expedition of power-hungry Sith Lords and their servants breached the gateway.
The Old Republic Codex: The Dark Temple
For well over a thousand years now, the dark side of the Force has flowed through Yavin 4 in an ever-increasing magnitude.
The Old Republic Codex: Yavin 4
“The dark side permeates everything here [on Yavin IV]. Saturates it. I've been to Oricon, this is another level entirely."
--Satele Shan
The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan
Located in an unremarkable system well off the Hydian Way, Oricon seems an almost arbitrary choice for the Dread Masters’ home. But anyone with an affinity for the Force can sense that the rocky Outer Rim moon is immeasurably strong with the dark side.
The Old Republic Codex: Oricon
“The dark side is strong on Ziost. Using the outpost’s resources, our former Emperor can massacre the defenceless to fuel him.”
--Rane Kovatch
The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor
Situated in the heart of Imperial Space, Ziost has long played a vital role in the intricate history of the Sith. For thousands of years, in fact, the craggy, arid world served as the ancient Sith Empire's capital until infighting splintered its leadership. Today, Ziost remains an important commercial, political and population center of the Empire--this in spite of its shift from a warm climate with dense forests to a bitterly cold tundra. Whether this environmental turnabout is due to geological reasons or eons of dark side influence remains a subject of scholarly consideration.
The Old Republic Codex: Ziost
Sparsely populated and largely unexplored, Dathomir wasn’t Korriban or Ziost, but it was powerful in the Force, in part because of its fecundity, but mainly due to the presence of groups of female adepts who practiced dark side magicks.
Darth Plagueis
“On Odessen, light and dark exist in perfect balance, forming a nexus in the Force. There is another world like it… Zakuul.”
--Satele Shan
The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire
I have an unexpected study hall, so:
Originally posted by ILS
Still proves it isn't a trump card, and knowledge of the technique seems less relevant than simply having the power to resist it. You're committing a no-limits fallacy by suggesting it'll automatically work on Plagueis.
My point was, though, that this advantage will likely surpass midichlorian manipulation in combat-efficiency. I'm public about how the ability is ambiguous in its use, but it is apparent that it can be used sudden enough that an active Force barrier cannot be thrown up (and I don't think you would argue Darth Plagueis' Lesser Force barrier is powerful enough to resist such an attack). So, Plagueis will be held for a period of time, especially since he first has to process what the hell is going on before he does anything. I'm not going to get into the argument if he can or not - for the sake of our conversation I will say he can - but I think it's reasonable to assume whatever period of time it takes to process and break free will be used by Valkorion to the absolute advantage. Because Plagueis will be stopped in time for whatever duration, he will be unable to use midichlorian manipulation or any Force shields, therefore meaning a potent attack by Valkorion would likely obliterate his Muun body.
EDIT: To clarify, I don't think an unexpected Plagueis could break free from an esoteric ability faster than Valkorian can unleash his power. There is no indication - visual or otherwise - that Valkorion is strained by doing this, so in theory he could spam this ability until he does successfully destroy Plagueis' unprotected body, if we want to go that route, also.
I would argue there is plenty of basis he can heal against Valk's lightning, given the Sidious example, but even providing he can't out-heal it permanently, he doesn't need to because, he isn't drunk, ambushed and defenceless here. He can use barriers, tutaminis, his lightsaber for defence, relocate, retreat, heal and come back to the fight etc. He can be back in peak shape even if Valk breaks his defences. The midichlorians are creating new tissue to replace damaged tissue in real time.
I think you expanded on your explanation on that in your second post, so I'll respond to that there. If not, I'll re-quote it again and respond based on the insight you provided with midichlorian manipulation in that post.
Originally posted by ILS
"I could save you, of course. Return you from the brink, as you did Venamis._I could retask your body to repair the damage already done to your lungs, your hearts, your aged brain."
Brilliant observation, ILS. So Sidious can also command midi-chlorians to heal badly damaged tissue, and not just any midi-chlorians - Plagueis' midi-chlorians. If we take Sidious on his word, he could mess with other people's midi-chlorians to heal and presumably, given Plagueis noted this was much easier, to kill them also. Even TPM Sidious can tap into the very source code of the Force and one-shot virtually anyone it seems. Damn.
An addendum to your points, though: Plagueis does not need to actively command his midi-chlorians to get results. For example, Plagueis simply gave instructions to Veruna's midi-chlorians to kill their host, and Plagueis noted they would continue to so do on their own even should Plagueis leave his side.
"Let me explain what is happening to you," Plagueis said. "The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you."
Veruna's face was losing color, and his breathing had slowed. "Bring... me back. I can still be... of service... to you..."
"But you are, Your Majesty. A celebrated ancient poet once said that every death lessened him, for he considered himself to be a brother to every living being. I, on the other hand, have come to understand that every death I oversee nourishes and empowers me, for I am a true Sith."
"No... better than... an Anzati."
"The brain eaters? What does better than mean to those of us who have passed beyond notions of good and evil? Are you better than Bon Tapalo? Are you better than Queen Padmé Amidala? I am the only one fit to answer the question. Better are those who do my bidding." Plagueis placed his hand atop Veruna's. "I'll remain with you for a while as you meld with the Force. But at some point, I will have to leave you at the threshold to continue on your own."
"Don't do this... Damask. Please..."
"I am Darth Plagueis, Veruna. Your shepherd."
Darth Plagueis
Plagueis merely needs to pull the switch and set his midi-chlorians to healing mode. He doesn't need to concentrate on them and can combat Valkorion while they heal him independent of his will. Similarly he could put Valkorion's midi-chlorians to kill mode and watch in satisfaction as the Not-So-Immortal Emperor dies a very mortal death, unable to do anything to stop his ignoble fate. Or he could add in conscious effort to speed up the process, and kill Valkorion in less than a second.
Exactly, yeah. He can simply speed up the process by micro managing it, but otherwise it's a heal-over-time.
So Valk's puny muggle body gets midichlorian'd and his spirit vanishes in the absence of a nexus or tethering point. His time manipulation (or whatever it is in reality) can be overpowered by scrubs like Vaylin, so Plagueis should be able to react to it easily enough (like how he instantly reacted to a drunken sleeping ambush from Sidious). This is made easier by the fact Vaylin simply over powered it, there's no special knowledge or technique required to do so that has been made apparent.
GG. It's all over.
I know you said you would wait until I finish both responses - and I obviously have not yet (class is almost over, so I'll be reading and responding at home) - but I feel obligated to *again* point out that spirit Valkorion was in an *immensely* weakened state that is no where near the potency of full-powered Valkorion.
Originally posted by Azronger
"I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source."
If you analyze the grammar of the sentence, you can clearly see that you have the word 'have' along 'instructed', that means it did not happen right there and then.
When you use 'have' in a sentence it means that is the "present perfect" form. Basically, when we use the Present Perfect it means that something has happened at some point before now.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I know you said you would wait until I finish both responses - and I obviously have not yet (class is almost over, so I'll be reading and responding at home) - but I feel obligated to *again* point out that spirit Valkorion was in an *immensely* weakened state that is no where near the potency of full-powered Valkorion.
And I feel obligated to *again* point out that Plagueis is *immensely* more powerful than peak Valkorion per his galactic TP, Naboo climate/earthquake, cosmic unbalancing, and overpowering the will of the Force feats as well as general powerscaling, not to mention being a sufficient threat in the Force's eyes to warrant a demigod to take him down - a demigod whose might you already recognize full well.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
If you analyze the grammar of the sentence, you can clearly see that you have the word 'have' along 'instructed', that means it did not happen right there and then.When you use 'have' in a sentence it means that is the "present perfect" form. Basically, when we use the Present Perfect it means that something has happened at some point before now.
Are you a troll?