Originally posted by Beniboybling
I searched Outbound Flight and only found this😖uffice to say it's no more than Kenobi's opinion, who nonetheless admits elsewhere:That he's still less powerful than Yoda. 👆I highlighted the key words, both sources imply this is merely the perception of his peers (though evidently not all of them), not an actual fact.
Canon. This poll is Legends only. Though I would note neither of these things necessarily translate into superiority as a warrior in general only in terms of his battlefield accomplishments, with Yoda being typically stylised as rarely participating in battle and a reluctant fighter.
Again, understand that this is the same Fact Files that described Yoda's Force ability as "incomparable".
And there are just as many that describe Yoda as the greatest, unmatched, and without peer. Plus quotes that put Dooku in there league as well. Nah, there is no sense arguing this is "clear cut" when we are dealing with sources that contradict themselves within the same series. 😂
But if we approach the subject from feats alone then yes, it is very clear.
If you are referring to this:I wouldn't say that's particularly fair, as taken within the contexts of the scene preceding it in which Yoda describes Dooku as there "greatest student/greatest failure", and it is clearly nothing more than a narrative link. The same narrative that admits Anakin is more gifted than the Count. 😬
Thanks to Vaapad the flow of power is frictionless yes, which means Windu can channel more power through himself that he'd usually be capable of, without running the risk of having his atoms fly apart.
No that's not what I said. This is what I said:And regardless of whether it requires him to hold a "barely contained explosion of power" - or in other words hold a charge - his ability to do so remains amplified by Vaapad's superconducting qualities.
I would dispute in this particular instance that Mace is withholding Palpatine's power (and that that extract is referring exclusively to the wielder's inner darkness), as the flow of power is described as indeed constant and uninterrupted, but I will also reiterate that it [b]does not matter
- his ability to do so is still amplified by Vaapad transforming him into a superconductor all the same, by which he's able to punch far above his natural potential.He takes ownership of Palpatine's power certainly. But he cannot do that without Palpatine, and he can only do it with Vaapad to enhance natural capacity. [/B]
1. You are now nitpicking quotes which are pretty huge in number, instead of recognizing the intent behind them.
You say that Yoda's abilities are described as incomparable? Yeah, I checked the fact file, and it is a general statement. A general statement which is false, for obvious reasons. What is the excuse? "Oh, but this obviously refers to Jedi only, not anyone else"?
Even taking it at face value, I can just as well go on a rant and bring out the quotes that describe Mace Windu as unmatched, or likewise, incomparable. There are many, in fact like that. In fact, it took me about 3 minutes to find a new one(no kidding, I don't think anybody knows about this, even I didn't):
One of the greatest among the Jedi, Mace Windu is without peer in close quarters lightsaber combat.
Credit: Hasbro Saga legends, 2006/2007
He is "without peer as a combatant" among the Jedi. There are many other quotes directly equating him to Yoda in skill.
For all your wordplay, you simply don't recognize the intent behind these quotes-That is, to establish comparability between Mace and Yoda. To convey the firm message that Mace is indeed on Yoda's level. Yoda may be superior, no doubt, but Mace is on his general level. There are many quotes that state that Obi Wan and Anakin were evenly matched on Mustafar. Yet we know that Anakin was superior, but Obi Wan followed close behind.
To give you an example, Obi Wan says that Mace is as closely attuned with the force as Yoda is. And then he says that Mace is the most powerful after Yoda. Does this mean we will simply dismiss the two? No, because the meaning clearly is that, despite Mace being inferior to Yoda, he is still very much on his level in general.
How about this one-
He made her nervous in a way no other Jedi did, not even Master Yoda. His presence in the Force was breathtaking. Standing beside him was like being buffeted by a gale-and he wasn't even trying. He was just breathing, just being himself. What it felt like to be near Mace Windu when he exerted himself? That was something she wasn't sure she ever wanted to experience.
Credit: Clone Wars-Siege
Mace's force signature is outright described superior to Yoda's, by Ahsoka. Note that even Yoda's force signature was unnerving/breathtaking to Ahsoka, which is why she said "not even Master Yoda".
Next, no, Dooku doesn't have even remotely as many quotes as Mace does comparing him to Yoda, lmao. He has a few quotes declaring comparability in skill( and one other quote regarding the force from the Geonosis battle, that is easily refuted), but that is it. Mace has many quotes declaring comparability in overall ability, several quotes declaring comparability in power and many other quotes declaring comparability in skill.
Nothing is clear cut, but if you are now going to argue that Mace on his own, is going to be beaten easily by Yoda or something, and that he isn't comparable to Yoda, then at this stage, it is only laughable.
As for the DR quote, no, the scene with Yoda is at the start of the novel. That particular scene with Dooku is at the end, and it is entirely isolated and on its own. Both in terms of narration and scene placement.
In other words, it is you who chooses to equate the two, not that they actually are similar. The obvious explanation is that the novelization has an inflated opinion on Dooku.
2. All you are saying is that "Vaapad transforms him to a superconducting loop, by which he is able to punch far above his natural potential" or "Vaapad far enhances his natural capacity".
This is baseless, to say the least. If you noticed, even Sidious is a part of that superconducting loop. The other half. So is Sidious's power being enhanced far beyond his capacity?
The novel makes it obvious, that whatever state Mace is in, Sidious is too. Both are exact halves of the whole. Darkness flows in and out of both. Both are superconductors or whatever.
Again, it is important to emphasize that it is Mace's own power that is being brought into play here. Just as Sidious's power is. The "explosion of power" makes it pretty obvious that it is Mace's own power being brought into the picture and which is being channelized througj Vaapad. This is essential-Vaapad is nothing more than a channelizing mechanism(not an amplifying one). The force user has a huge amount of power. Unleashing that power in one go, would mean the huge risk of the force user turning to the dark side, especially for a person like Mace. Mace created Vaapad to channel his power effectively and safely without turning to the dark side. That is the gist of it. Now pretending that somehow this concept pushes him far beyond his natural level, not only is baseless, it is outright contradicted by all the quotes putting him at Yoda's level. Forget that, it is outright contradicted in the fight itself, where he negates most of the power of Sidious's blast (see my conversation with haschwalth for the semantics), despite being distracted, caught off guard, and without Vaapad.
In the end, we have a direct statement about the force user's own power being involved in Vaapad, we have Vaapad being described, by all accounts as a channelizing mechanism( nothing else), that allows Mace to use dark side emotions in battle, without fear of turning to the dark side, we have a shit ton of quotes equating Mace to Yoda with quite a few even declaring him superior to Yoda, and you are turning this aside, for what? Your own opinion on how it should be?