1/18/2018 - #6A (Ranking SIX, Round ONE) - Most Powerful Tournament - VOTE!

Originally posted by MythLord
Hmm... I'm legit willing to vote for Valkorion, but I've also seen some nice arguments pro-Mace.

I'll wait until someone makes an argument for either side, then choose which one is more convincing. I wanna see how well Windu can handle Valk's TP, Lightning and other haxx abilities.

So a few points:
[list]
[*]Re: attempts to lowball Mace, he's noted to grow in power through to RotS, so pre-RotS showings aren't really legitimate
[*]Windu's superconducting loop is described as reflecting dark side energies, so it should generically work against Valkorion's power (note that it works against Sidious's speed and lightning, two disparate manifestations of the dark side energies - and we know from the RotJ novelization that things that can be generated by the Force can get stopped by it)
[*]Mace Windu fights Palpatine so fast in the novelization (i.e. Legends version of the fight) that Anakin Skywalker can barely see them. Much better speed feat than Valkorion = can cut him up.
[*]Since you do seem to accept that RotS Sidious > Valkorion, if Windu's vaapad allows him to equalize SIdious, it lets him **at the least** equalize Valkorion.
[*]Mace even pre-vaapad is still deflecting Palpatine's TK and stuff
[*]Palpatine knows lots of haxx abilities too - I reckon the reason he doesn't use them on Mace is that frankly Windu is too fast and powerful for it to be practical.
[/list]

Mace Windu fights Palpatine so fast in the novelization (i.e. Legends version of the fight) that Anakin Skywalker can barely see them. Much better speed feat than Valkorion = can cut him up.

Granted, there is inconsistency among works of how it all works.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

I always have issue with this particular argument. Force-users generally perceive their opponent via Force senses and precognition, not eyesight. It's noted Anakin couldn't track them with his eyes but still follow them with the Force, which should be expected with combatants of this scale. So, I'd rephrase and just say that they can move faster than a human eye can follow.

Granted, there is inconsistency among works of how it all works. [/B]

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sun fire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his
own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

^ It seems like Anakin is pretty astounded by their speed, and regardless it's still a good feat vs. a Valkorion whose reflexes and general combat awareness aren't particularly elite.

There's no denying they were moving incredibly fast. My issue was more with the implication Anakin wouldn't be capable of jumping into the fray himself without being speedblitzed, yet he obviously can.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no denying they were moving incredibly fast. My issue was more with the implication Anakin wouldn't be capable of jumping into the fray himself without being speedblitzed, yet he obviously can.

Sure. You could be a dick by noting sources where scalable characters are described as seeing attacks and whatnot with their eyes, but speed feats are honestly really a crapshoot in Star Wars.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion can likely use teleportation (given the Dread, Revan, and Satele can), so I don't think a lightsaber will make or break it here.

It was just a joke, but now that you brought up teleportation I think that matters even less at this tier of power. What good it does when any distance he instantly gains Mace can cover in a fraction of a second with Force Speed. Unless Valkorion straight up runs away, in which case Mace won.

And as for Valkorion's TP: He never defeated anyone with it in combat. Revan and Malak were at the edge of the dark side anyway, the Jedi Strike Team was knocked out by lightning first, and even Vaylin needed conditioning so Valkorion can break her mind.

Something Sidious' dark side adepts can do is totes relevant vs Mace Windu.

-

Valk's TP expressly works by attempting to overwhelm his opponents with the dark side, the chances of that working against Mace are nil.

lol, Mace. 🙂

I'll go with Valk

ur new avi makes me mad

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'll go with Valk

change ur avi back

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion can likely use teleportation (given the Dread, Revan, and Satele can), so I don't think a lightsaber will make or break it here.

One of the abilities you get when you play as Valkorion is teleportation, so imo he can definitely use it.

Also good point with Vastor TP'ing Mace. 👆

Has teleportation ever actually changed the outcome of a fight?

The vast majority of the fights against its practitioners take place in gameplay. I believe the practical benefits of the technique should be apparent to everyone, however. Revan almost won his fight by teleporting and instantly unleashing an overwhelming attack, for instance.

In this case in particular Valkorion would undoubtedly benefit from it immensely. If Sidious had been able to get distance from Mace and launch Force attacks at him, I think the fight would have gone very differently.

Mace should be 6

Originally posted by Nephthys
The vast majority of the fights against its practitioners take place in gameplay. I believe the practical benefits of the technique should be apparent to everyone, however. Revan almost won his fight by teleporting and instantly unleashing an overwhelming attack, for instance.

In this case in particular Valkorion would undoubtedly benefit from it immensely. If Sidious had been able to get distance from Mace and launch Force attacks at him, I think the fight would have gone very differently.

Sure, I'm just saying that pretty much every single known teleporter has lost their battles, lol. It can't be that much of a difference. And given how none of them could use it even to flee by the end of their fights, presumably it does require considerable effort that we can't see just because they don't perform complex hand maneuvers or scream in exertion.

Depends. Force Speed at such a high level could cover similar distances without taking much longer, and is probably far less exhausting to boot. Given that Valkorion or anyone else can't just teleport out of the arena (or else it'd be counted as a loss), I think the power's pretty gimmicky and dependent on the surrounding environment at best.

Valk is as likely to teleport into a lightsaber as he is to use it properly.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sure, I'm just saying that pretty much every single known teleporter has lost their battles, lol. It can't be that much of a difference. And given how none of them could use it even to flee by the end of their fights, presumably it does require considerable effort that we can't see just because they don't perform complex hand maneuvers or scream in exertion.

Depends. Force Speed at such a high level could cover similar distances without taking much longer, and is probably far less exhausting to boot. Given that Valkorion or anyone else can't just teleport out of the arena (or else it'd be counted as a loss), I think the power's pretty gimmicky and dependent on the surrounding environment.

Which has nothing to do with the technique itself. Every time its been shown used its been effective. It was brought up specifically as a counter to Maces lightsaber assault. If you have reason to suggest it couldn't do that then it'd be relevant. Your suggestion that its a trash ability isn't though. And Revan uses it to flee twice, actually. Your assumption of effort is baseless and its been proven to be able to be used instantly, consecutively, in combination with force attacks and with no apparent effort.

You mean like Yoda covered the distance between him and Sidious instantly in the senate? There are countless of examples of people getting attacks off when given distance and their opponents not knowing where they are (and comparatively miniscule amounts of fighters covering ground before such attacks can be used). Valkorion can likely teleport and attack instantly before Mace can even locate him. An "instants distraction" was almost enough for Sidious to kill him and Mace was right in front of him. And it takes far, far less time for Valkorion to attack than it takes Mace to locate and run over to him.