Originally posted by ILS
@slayne
He didn't charge up his attack for a good few seconds, he just pushed the HoT away. https://youtu.be/vT6T1Lxph4k?t=6m21s
AotC Kenobi laughed off Dooku's lightning, but I fail to see how that proves he's more powerful than the Count.
And it seems there's an inconsistency: we see an affirmation of my stance in TOR in the form of Vitiate's fight with the strike team. The two less powerful members of the team relative to Vitiate - Narezz and Sedoru - immediately get overwhelmed by the lightning, even with their blades drawn and deflecting the lightning. The two more powerful members of the team relative to Vitiate - Braga and the HoT - manage to deflect his lightning for a prolonged amount of time, before eventually getting overwhelmed once he puts forth a concentrated attack. It's made clear that, at least in the TOR medium, your ability to block an attack directly corresponds with your power relative to the attacker - and as our debate concerns TOR subject matter, this would apply more accurately to the material in question than an example from a completely different source.
With that in mind, can you provide the Kas'im quote? (not contesting it, just don't have it on hand right now)
It's pretty unclear who is more powerful aside from the obvious roles of knight vs sorcerer that are on display, and while Vitiate is weakened, it's also noted by Scourge that he is quick to recover; and that is before you get a ship to the temple and fight through it. Since we know Vitiate is ordinarily far more powerful than the HoT, that he was on a nexus and quickly recovering, and that the HoT was weakened twicefold from having to fight an army and the nexus itself, it's pretty plausible he'd be the weaker Force user here.
@slayne
...what? He keeps his hand reared for at least 2 seconds before he pushes the HoT, and dark side energy, lightning, etc. almost englulfs him as he releases the wave. Contrast that with the other force attack he uses in that scene, the lightning (which was flung instantaneously, with no effort, without any visible dark side energy at all and cast from the same kneeling position) and it becomes pretty clear that he charged the push.Clip starts at :22. A flash appears at :23. Push happens at :24. Not interested in your conjecture, there's no indication he charged this push "for a good few seconds." It was just a Force push. He spends the same amount of time "charging" (that is to say none) the lightning.
Again, what? The lightning that he fires at Kenobi and the lightning which he'd use when he wants to kill his opponent are vastly different in terms of potency.Fair enough, forgot he wasn't trying to merk him there.
And it seems there's an inconsistency: we see an affirmation of my stance in TOR in the form of Vitiate's fight with the strike team. The two less powerful members of the team relative to Vitiate - Narezz and Sedoru - immediately get overwhelmed by the lightning, even with their blades drawn and deflecting the lightning. The two more powerful members of the team relative to Vitiate - Braga and the HoT - manage to deflect his lightning for a prolonged amount of time, before eventually getting overwhelmed once he puts forth a concentrated attack. It's made clear that, at least in the TOR medium, your ability to block an attack directly corresponds with your power relative to the attacker - and as our debate concerns TOR subject matter, this would apply more accurately to the material in question than an example from a completely different source.If your assertion is that the HoT must necessarily be more powerful than Vitiate because he blocked his lightning, that's just conjecture. Vitiate at that point was wounded and walked into the lightsaber. Although I'll grant you that power does seem to have a correlative effect on how well you can block lightning.
With that in mind, can you provide the Kas'im quote? (not contesting it, just don't have it on hand right now)Making me read this garbage just to torment me?
On the landing high above Kas'im stood beneath the massive arch of the Temple entrance, staring down at him."I will follow you wherever you run," he said. "Wherever you go I will eventually find you and kill you. Don't live your life in fear, Bane. Better to end it now."
"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.
There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.
Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.
As you can see, the much more powerful Bane, even with a charged telekinetic attack, can't break through a last-second barrier put up by Kas'im.
We don't know exactly how much Vitiate was weakened relative to the HoT, though. He could've been weakened to the point where the HoT might've stomped him had he not been on a nexus and fought through an army, and given the scale of the ritual, it's entirely plausible that he wasted an amount of energy on the ritual sufficient enough for that to be the case.Yeah, we don't know, but what you just said is mere conjecture. Not to mention irrelevant since we're discussing who is more powerful at the time of the fight.
Not to mention, there is a version of the fight where Vitiate is given, according to Scourge, far too much time to recover his strength.
"We have surprised the Emperor, but he will recover quickly."
https://youtu.be/vT6T1Lxph4k?t=3m3s
"You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are all fortunate to be alive."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoFNJ7UophU&feature=youtu.be&t=590
Vitiate himself also states that the HoT wasted his own energy saving his friends.
"You dissipated your energy saving the weak. There are consequences."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoFNJ7UophU&feature=youtu.be&t=385
If Vitiate is weaker than the HoT while on a powerful dark side nexus, given apparently ample time to recover much of his power, and while the HoT himself is notably weaker from being on said nexus and wasting energy fighting on it, then I hope you can prove it.
I still maintain that Vitiate may not be prepared for a random 20-foot CQC encounter with someone like Maul. I'll agree with you he's clearly far more powerful, but I'm not sold he will survive given the distance.
Maul is especially noted to be a very fast combatant. Valkorion is yet to demonstrate such speed feats and going by his novel showing he is not that great in combat reaction. I don't see how the fact that Valky is powerful grants him supreme speed, example:
Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
This was brought up elsewhere, and not refuted.The logic inherently contradicts itself. Valkorion, based on feats and accolades, is more powerful than Kit Fisto, and therefore faster than him. But Kit Fisto, based on feats and accolades is faster than Valkorion, and therefore more powerful than him... what?
With the distance specified in the OP, Maul has a very big chance of winning this due to skill and speed.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yeah Maul blitzes 😉
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Novel Vitiate != SWTOR Vitiate. Novel Vitiate on a powerful dark side nexus gets disarmed by Meetra Surik's saber throw, nearly blindsided by T3, and knocked on his ass by his own lightning bolts. There's basically no evidence that he has bothered to refine his reflexes or close-quarters combat abilities at all, given that his imperial guard basically makes it impossible for any of his fodder to get as close to him as Maul starts in this fight.
One must love the fact, that people keep attempting to discredit Vitiate, using a fight he clearly didn't take siriously. You may want to look at the beginning of that fight. Vitiate would have viewed Revan as a person he easily dominated before - no threat. Scourge was his servant - no threat. Only Meetra would have been an unknown to him, but less powerful than Revan - no threat. So at that point, he didn't need to watch out for anything.
When Vitiate started to take that fight seriously, he obliterated T3 with a casual blast and overpowered Revan's force defence in a split-second. It is in that instance in which Scourge notices that even Revan, Meetra and himself combined would probably not stand a chance against Vitiate when they were all pretty much in "close quarters" with him. So why do you think Maul would stand a chance?
Likewise, Force augmentation is correlated more closely with "raw" power than other, more external abilities are, and Maul's raw potential rivals Palpatine's. Add that to his far more relevant training and specialization in close quarters combat and speed-blitzing feats and it's unclear if a sorcerer like Tenebrae would be prepared to deal with one of the fastest and deadliest combatants in the mythos standing six meters away from him.(HoT was also weakened but ILS and co. can handle that) [/B]
First: Vitiate has absorbed the power of an entire planet including hundreds or even thousands of Sith Lords and millions of Sith/Massassi. His "raw power" does probably eclipse that of anybody in the mythos, if only because of that ritual he performed to enhance himself.
Second: I don't get why people assume that Vitiate would need to "react" to a charge by Maul. This is a versus fight. They would both try to kill their opponent instantly. So Maul needs to cross the 6 meters of distance (which he, without doubt, can do rather fast) but all that Vitiate needs to do is point a finger at Maul (if even that) and the Sith apprentice would just vanish in a flash of lightning, leaving two smouldering boots behind. If Vitiate does even need gestures, provided he obliterated the entire cast of a Dark Council once by toasting them on the steps to the palace, apparently without even leaving his throne room.
Thirdly: Vitiate/Valkorion has already demonstrated his ability to summon force fields capable of defending him against lightsaber attacks (parrying lightsaber attack with his bare hands). So he could probably just sit this out, if he really wanted to.
And in all honesty: It's pretty obvious, that Vitiate/Valkorion has been designed as the most powerful "regular" being in the mythos, but designed with character flaws that enable his opponents to get to him (and defeat him) in the first place. Removing those, which is usually done for a versus fight, Vitiate - even in his "Revan" incarnation - would casually destroy anybody up to Revan tier. With Maul being far below that level. No matter how close you put him to the Sith Emperor.
Originally posted by Nai
One must love the fact, that people keep attempting to discredit Vitiate, using a fight he clearly didn't take siriously. You may want to look at the beginning of that fight. Vitiate would have viewed Revan as a person he easily dominated before - no threat. Scourge was his servant - no threat. Only Meetra would have been an unknown to him, but less powerful than Revan - no threat. So at that point, he didn't need to watch out for anything.
His overconfidence might have been a semi-coherent excuse up until Revan resists his TP and knocks him on his ass in the opening moves of the fight. Then, if Vitiate still doesn't take Revan seriously, he's a top tier moron. If he likewise continues to not do so after having get knocked on his ass by his own lightning and subsequently blindsided by both T3 and Meetra, then he probably just walks onto Maul's lightsaber from sheer stupidity.
When Vitiate started to take that fight seriously, he obliterated T3 with a casual blast
???
This statement is just completely wrong on every level:
1. Vitiate had already started taking the fight seriously, yet despite the throne room being depicted as a long walkway with only one entrance:
T3 manages to move in front of a Revan who had already made considerable headway (given that Revan sees T3), before Vitiate finally notices him at the last moment.
2. He is so pressed to stop T3's flamethrower that he has to stop what he's doing just to defend himself from it (contrast: Sidious no-sells Plagueis's telekinesis while continuing to electrocute him at the end of the Plagueis novel)
3. He then unleashes "the full power of the dark side" to destroy an R2D2 sized droid.
Now sure how you're trying to spin this into a positive feat for him, lmao.
and overpowered Revan's force defence in a split-second.
He still has to raise his arms and gather his energy with some amount of time - there's not enough distance in this confrontation for that to happen.
It is in that instance in which Scourge notices that even Revan, Meetra and himself combined would probably not stand a chance against Vitiate when they were all pretty much in "close quarters" with him. So why do you think Maul would stand a chance?
??? 😕 Scourge gets flashes of visions that depict both his victory and defeat in the throne room; we have no idea what the most likely outcome was.
In either case, Scourge and Meetra are both fodder-tier combatants at that stage in the timeline, so it's kind of funny that their presence is so important. It would be like Sidious getting threatened because Mace Windu brought Kit Fisto and three other pretty powerful Jedi Masters with him, except Scourge and Meetra are even weak-ohhhh.
First: Vitiate has absorbed the power of an entire planet including hundreds or even thousands of Sith Lords and millions of Sith/Massassi. His "raw power" does probably eclipse that of anybody in the mythos, if only because of that ritual he performed to enhance himself.
That's just embarrassing then, because you think he has more raw power than anyone else and 1000+ years to unlock it but still almost dies to T3.
In all seriousness, even if you think Vitiate > Sidious, the latter clear has more potential even post-Nathema because he's grown as powerful as he has by Dark Empire in the course of like nine decades.
Second: I don't get why people assume that Vitiate would need to "react" to a charge by Maul. This is a versus fight. They would both try to kill their opponent instantly. So Maul needs to cross the 6 meters of distance (which he, without doubt, can do rather fast) but all that Vitiate needs to do is point a finger at Maul (if even that) and the Sith apprentice would just vanish in a flash of lightning, leaving two smouldering boots behind. If Vitiate does even need gestures, provided he obliterated the entire cast of a Dark Council once by toasting them on the steps to the palace, apparently without even leaving his throne room.
Doesn't matter. Vitiate's combat reflexes are sh*t and he has horrible awareness. 6 meters might as well be point blank range given Maul's speed feats. I'm also not convinced that he would overpower Maul at that range without gathering his energy for some amount of time.
The dark council scene isn't relevant at all; Vitiate isn't inviting Maul to visit him in his own fortress at a time of his choosing to conveniently kill him with a mysterious technique he never uses in any other context.
Thirdly: Vitiate/Valkorion has already demonstrated his ability to summon force fields capable of defending him against lightsaber attacks (parrying lightsaber attack with his bare hands). So he could probably just sit this out, if he really wanted to.
Novel Vitiate? But again, gotta see evidence he'd react in time after his atrocious performance in the novel.
And in all honesty: It's pretty obvious, that Vitiate/Valkorion has been designed as the most powerful "regular" being in the mythos, but designed with character flaws that enable his opponents to get to him (and defeat him) in the first place. Removing those, which is usually done for a versus fight, Vitiate - even in his "Revan" incarnation - would casually destroy anybody up to Revan tier. With Maul being far below that level. No matter how close you put him to the Sith Emperor.
Though I don't think Vitiate is the most powerful "regular" being, I agree that if he trained in combat for a bit he'd defeat Maul. But when we get rid of character flaws for the sake of a debate we usually mean moral inhibitions, not combat skill.
The full fight for those who are interested:
As Meetra and Scourge battled the Guard, Revan charged toward the Emperor.
His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.
Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.
The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.
Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.
He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy.
Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.
The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.
The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.
Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid.
T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.
“No!” Revan screamed from the ground as bits of his friend rained down on him in the form of unrecognizable shrapnel.
He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.
The Emperor was approaching him with calm, purposeful steps. Once he reached Revan’s side he calmly bent down and picked up the Jedi’s fallen weapon, igniting the blade.
The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan’s wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength. Helpless, he could only stare up at the Emperor as he raised the lightsaber to deliver the killing blow.
Even as she called to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.
What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.
Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.
It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.
In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw, guiding it with the Force so that it spiraled end-over-end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor’s grasp and sending it skittering across the floor.
Suddenly empty-handed, the Emperor took a quick step back. His attention had been focused solely on Revan; Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise. Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade, she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan’s. But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy, and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity.
Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand.
Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.
Meetra had placed herself between the Emperor and Revan, valiantly protecting her wounded friend. As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp.
The three of them stood side by side, two Jedi and a Sith Lord against the Emperor.
“I expected better from you, Lord Scourge,” the Emperor said.
Scourge wondered if he was stalling for time so his Guard could break through the sealed door. There wasn’t much chance of that, however; by the time they broke into the throne room the battle would already be decided, one way or the other.
“He has seen the depths of your evil,” Revan declared. “He stands with us now.”
“Then he will die with you, as well.”
“You can’t defeat all three of us,” Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.”
“That remains to be seen,” the Emperor replied.
For Scourge, the universe suddenly seemed frozen in place, as if time itself had stopped. He realized he was at a crux in history; fate and destiny would be forever altered in the next few moments.
The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.
He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.
The moment passed and the universe began to move again, though everything seemed to be happening in slow motion. Revan and Meetra stepped forward, ready to initiate the final confrontation. Scourge knew he had to act now; he had to make his choice.
In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of a powerful Jedi … but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith Lord knew what he had to do.
Instead of advancing with his two companions, Scourge stepped to the side so that he was standing directly behind Meetra. There was a flicker in his consciousness as the universe snapped back to full speed, and he slid the blade of his lightsaber between her shoulders.
Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan’s head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Vitiate had already started taking the fight seriously, yet despite the throne room being depicted as a long walkway with only one entrance:T3 manages to move in front of a Revan who had already made considerable headway (given that Revan sees T3), before Vitiate finally notices him at the last moment.
That's an inaccurate depiction, its described very differently in the novel. Thats just Gnost Durals guesstimation of it.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
you keen for a Darth Maul vote over valkorian in a few more matches, in ants tournament?First we needa put, dooku/Revan etc in front of that.
If Windu wins, at the moment I'd vote UnuThul, Krayt, Caedus and Tenebrous above Valkorion. Not sure if I'll make the leap and put Vader down too.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
hmm I might as well take Ct123's malak force Drain speed blog.
That outdoes any PT speed movement feat.****, might as well start arguing Malak would blitz Sidious with that.
Link?