Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul is roughly the same age as Kenobi, who was also thoroughly well trained by TPM.
Actually, Maul's training would be, by any common sense, infinitely superior to Obi Wan's. In addition, he has a master infinitely superior to Obi Wan's master, who directs all of Maul's energies towards achieving more power in an incredibly better way. In addition, Maul has incredibly more amount of resources to learn from, and sources of knowledge much, much more potent than Obi Wan has access to, as being a padawan, he has much, much lesser knowledge than your average Jedi Master, and the Banite archives which were accessible to Maul should be at the very least, superior to that.
I mean, it is obvious that we cannot compare the training of these two guys.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Actually, Maul's training would be, by any common sense, infinitely superior to Obi Wan's. In addition, he has a master infinitely superior to Obi Wan's master, who directs all of Maul's energies towards achieving more power in an incredibly better way. In addition, Maul has incredibly more amount of resources to learn from, and sources of knowledge much, much more potent than Obi Wan has access to, as being a padawan, he has much, much lesser knowledge than your average Jedi Master, and the Banite archives which were accessible to Maul should be at the very least, superior to that.I mean, it is obvious that we cannot compare the training of these two guys.
Think you’re exaggerating the difference there.
But obviously Maul’s training was superior. Which is why he was better at the time. Just as ROTJ Vader was also vastly better trained than Luke at the time (who was also technically a Padawan).
Point being Kenobi was well trained and already had the makings of a great Jedi.
I am not exaggerating anything.
Let us first consider that Obi Wan was given the same training as any other padawan. He may have been the best of his generation, but that is because of his natural talent, not any special training. No hype has been given to his training at all. You can argue that Qui Gon would have instructed him well, giving him better training than most other Jedi Masters would give to their apprentices( which is pure speculation), and admittedly, Jedi training as a whole would be the best in this era, but that's about it.
Next, the training of Sith apprentices are naturally far more intense than Jedi training, because most of their efforts are focused and directed towards combat, whereas for Jedi, a huge chunk of time is devoted to various miscellaneous stuff, not to mention that they do not train as intensively for combat as Sith do. Now let us consider that Banite training, would be a lot more advanced than your average Sith training because they have far better knowledge, resources and potential. A Banite Sith apprentice not only has access to a tremendous amount of knowledge of the best of the Ancient Sith, but they have the full knowledge of the earlier generations of their order as well( which is especially noteworthy, when you consider that Bane, the weakest of their order, is arguably comparable to Sith like Ludo Kressh or Naga Sadow by consensus). Maul being at the very end of this line, benefits the most out of it.
Now consider that Maul's training has specifically been hyped even on top of that, and repeatedly been stated to be among the best in history. A great many accolades point to his training as being of supreme quality. Apparently, neither Plagueis nor Sidious had the same intensity of training, and their abilities are well known. Next, Maul's master, is infinitely more powerful and knowledgeable than Obi Wan's own and would have directed Maul's efforts to achieve more power in a much better way than Qui Gon ever would to Obi Wan.
That kind of stuff blows any kind of training Obi Wan got out of the galaxy. I'd wager that the kind of knowledge Maul had access to would be above even many of the best Jedi Masters of the era. Let's not forget that Knights have a greater knowledge base and resources than padawans, and Jedi Masters have access to such amounts of knowledge, that a choice few Jedi( knights) even "dream" of.
So, no, not really. The two aren't comparable at all.
Originally posted by HeartThrob
Doesn't the new canon material say that Obi's Force potential is actually meh, and his power level is due to hard work.
Don't know about canon, but his potential is not meh, lmfao. Both Yoda and Qui Gon have remarked incredibly high on it.
A guy who masters the Jedi fundamentals taught to initiates by by the age of two, a guy who is near-equal to one of the best Jedi Masters in the 25000 year old history of the order when he is just a 17 year old padawan, a guy who has been repeatedly stated to be among the best Jedi of the entire order, when only just a padawan( and the Jedi of the era are the best of all time), and a guy who was Yoda's "first choice" for many unconventional missions when only just a padawan, despite the fact that generally teams of Jedi( Masters and apprentices) are sent for such stuff, I am pretty sure will be among the most talented of the most talented of all the Jedi in the mythos.
Let's not even get into his feats as a padawan.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul is roughly the same age as Kenobi, who was also thoroughly well trained by TPM.This -got cut down by a Padawan- nonesense is Just playing on semantics to lowball.
Nah its technically true. Kenobi was certainly Knight-level by that point, but Maul still was overwhelmed by enraged Kenobi. In fact were it not for his weapon being double chamber he would have been effectively disarmed in seconds by TPM Kenobi. Dooku would never be disarmed by AOTCs Kenobi, let alone one ten years his junior.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah its technically true. Kenobi was certainly Knight-level by that point, but Maul still was overwhelmed by enraged Kenobi. In fact were it not for his weapon being double chamber he would have been effectively disarmed in seconds by TPM Kenobi. Dooku would never be disarmed by AOTCs Kenobi, let alone one ten years his junior.
And yet even post AOTC, Kenobi couldnt simply disarm Maul in seconds during TCW. So clearly Maul was simply caught off guard by the intensity of Kenobis rage attack.
Plus you cant relate what would happen with different weapons like that.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I am not exaggerating anything.Let us first consider that Obi Wan was given the same training as any other padawan. He may have been the best of his generation, but that is because of his natural talent, not any special training. No hype has been given to his training at all. You can argue that Qui Gon would have instructed him well, giving him better training than most other Jedi Masters would give to their apprentices( which is pure speculation), and admittedly, Jedi training as a whole would be the best in this era, but that's about it.
Next, the training of Sith apprentices are naturally far more intense than Jedi training, because most of their efforts are focused and directed towards combat, whereas for Jedi, a huge chunk of time is devoted to various miscellaneous stuff, not to mention that they do not train as intensively for combat as Sith do. Now let us consider that Banite training, would be a lot more advanced than your average Sith training because they have far better knowledge, resources and potential. A Banite Sith apprentice not only has access to a tremendous amount of knowledge of the best of the Ancient Sith, but they have the full knowledge of the earlier generations of their order as well( which is especially noteworthy, when you consider that Bane, the weakest of their order, is arguably comparable to Sith like Ludo Kressh or Naga Sadow by consensus). Maul being at the very end of this line, benefits the most out of it.
Now consider that Maul's training has specifically been hyped even on top of that, and repeatedly been stated to be among the best in history. A great many accolades point to his training as being of supreme quality. Apparently, neither Plagueis nor Sidious had the same intensity of training, and their abilities are well known. Next, Maul's master, is infinitely more powerful and knowledgeable than Obi Wan's own and would have directed Maul's efforts to achieve more power in a much better way than Qui Gon ever would to Obi Wan.
That kind of stuff blows any kind of training Obi Wan got out of the galaxy. I'd wager that the kind of knowledge Maul had access to would be above even many of the best Jedi Masters of the era. Let's not forget that Knights have a greater knowledge base and resources than padawans, and Jedi Masters have access to such amounts of knowledge, that a choice few Jedi( knights) even "dream" of.
So, no, not really. The two aren't comparable at all.
Of course they are comparable, otherwise there would be no fight at all.
Remember Qui-Gons words- But He was well trained in the Jedi arts-
Qui-Gon wasnt like OMFG that dudes skillz were like wayyy ahead of what we teach!
Just look at the fact that Obi-Wan outperformed his Master in combat by the end of TPM. Or look at Anakin smoking out Dooku, despite Dooku having spent several decades perfecting fencing. Or Padawan Luke taking out Vader.
Jedi training is intense itself (especially at the height of their power), but to reach new level of power you need to connect better to the Force. And theres no evidence anything the Sith do is more advanced for those purposes. Some things just need time (and potential).
Mauls training was better, which is why he was better than Obi-Wan at the time. But Obi-Wan/Qui-Gons training (at the height of the Jedi) were clearly still on a level where they could fight as even compete against Maul.
theres plenty of quotes though that say the Dark Side is more concentrated in the Sith as compared to the light side in the Jedi; this may have been hyperbole on the part of Plagueis but its always seemed to me that the Jedi know that their Sith counterparts are superior for the most part; notwithstanding yoda, mace, obi wan of course; they immediately promoted Kenobi to knight based purely on his defeat of a confirmed Sith Lord; Dooku was unbeatable til the very end by the Chosen One; same with Sidious, even Yoda mused to himself that he wasn't up for the challenge when he faced Sidious.
Theres nothing inherently better about the Sith. They just have to choose apprentices wisely because there can be only 2.
Maul being one of the best trained Sith in history is as much to do with the Jedi/Sith being at their peak in this time period, as it is to do with Sidious superior training.
Still Maul was better trained, ergo why he was better than Obi-Wan (at the time) but saying Infinitely better as if we are comparing an accomplished Master to a half trained Padawan is going completely overboard IMO.
Especially given the way Obi-Wan won was basically highlighting a Jedis strength and Siths weakness.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And yet even post AOTC, Kenobi couldnt simply disarm Maul in seconds during TCW. So clearly Maul was simply caught off guard by the intensity of Kenobis rage attack.Plus you cant relate what would happen with different weapons like that.
Well, actually we don't know that. Part of Maul's technique is utilizing a saber staff, Kenobi clearly struggles with single blade Maul thereafter in TPM. The next time we see Kenobi fight Maul with a saber staff he also defeats him in seconds.
Not saying he wasn't, I'm saying that Dooku would not be. We see Dooku face off against a far more powerful Anakin, and get demolished. Uh, yes you can, when people portray Maul vs. Kenobi in TPM as a MAUL ZOMGODSTOMP, when in fact he was very hard pressed to defeat him, and again got his weapon destroyed and put on his ass. Granted by this point TPM Kenobi was easily performing at master level, but the point still stands that this was a hard duel for Maul by this point, arguably the most difficult of his life. And TPM Kenobi isn't exactly Dooku or Mace Windu as far as bladework goes.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLightlmfao. Both Yoda and Qui Gon have remarked incredibly high on it.
A guy who masters the Jedi fundamentals taught to initiates by by the age of two, a guy who is near-equal to one of the best Jedi Masters in the 25000 year old history of the order when he is just a 17 year old padawan, a guy who has been repeatedly stated to be among the best Jedi of the entire order, when only just a padawan( and the Jedi of the era are the best of all time), and a guy who was Yoda's "first choice" for many unconventional missions when only just a padawan, despite the fact that generally teams of Jedi( Masters and apprentices) are sent for such stuff, I am pretty sure will be among the most talented of the most talented of all the Jedi in the mythos.
Let's not even get into his feats as a padawan. [/B]
The question LOTL, was wether Obi Wan is eluded to having a mediocre inate power within the realm of canon. A relevant detail despite you're non-answer drawing almost entirely from Legends sources. How about saving the lubricant for when the time calls for it. As for the enquiry regarding Kenobi's potential, this is all that needs to be said:
Don't know about canon
So that people don't try to estimate Dooku's abilities base don his aotc-rots showings:
Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself.Source: Revenge of the Sith
"I have spent the last ten years learning to use the power of the Dark Side. It gives me infinitely greater power."Source: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Attack-of-the-Clones
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
"Your Master, Thame Cerulian, says the most gifted Padawan he ever saw, you are. Trust in yourself, you need not. I, Yoda, great and powerful Jedi Master, will trust for you! Is it enough?"Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
And if you scale him above TPM Mace, he gets this:
Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.Star Wars Fact File 11
The argument for Maul would be that
A. He's in the same tier as Sith Dooku who is vastly above his Jedi self.
B. He has more impressive feats and scales above incarnations of Kenobi that
-> Have telekenetically cloaked and tk'd 40 m ships
-> Have fought off the mental influence of a bunch of banite sith artifacts trying to kill him
-> Have done the heavy lifting bringing down large air ships 5 years post TPM
Not to mention Maul's Sidious tier potential and the decades of top tier training he's received.
Overall, I find all of the above impressive enough to supersede Jedi Dooku's hype, even if we assume that the difference between a low 8 and high 8 can be equivalent to Dooku getting "infinitely more powerful".