Originally posted by One Big MobSure. It was explained that he needed Galactus' ship to survive the Universe's destruction, and onto the next Universe. You...see him be desperate to catch up to the ship. He grabbed onto the ship. The ship split the aleph [iirc that's what it was called] in two, allowing the Universe to expand back again, while Surfer looked on from the Void at it taking shape:
Explain
Because he knew Galactus' ship was the epicenter of the big bang, and he knew it would take him to the next universe.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SvPhHh0Bsm8/WfB7qjHbfNI/AAAAAAAAFgE/M6nbW1OcPtE2AE-xdiFziQRCki9kP6JrQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO002.jpg
Which is why he had to grab onto his ship, as otherwise he might not have "arrived" in the new universe.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hvfMNOgKqkQ/WfB7rITmbvI/AAAAAAAAFgQ/tK90J-lVb3cWgPEe-upVMXRSfQ_mDbWbACHMYCw/s1600/RCO003.jpg
Him being in a void is consistent with a big bang, yes:
"After the initial expansion, the universe cooled sufficiently to allow the formation of_subatomic particles, and later simple_atoms. Giant clouds of these primordial elements later coalesced through_gravity_in halos of_dark matter, eventually forming the_stars_and_galaxies_visible today."
Though not sure what your argument would be here. There was a void and then everything formed because nothing happened?
Originally posted by Digi
This thread is for recent feats specifically. But are we just resigned to weighting older feats far less, even if they're still in canon? Stretch far enough back, and, for example, the Surfer discussion becomes moot. Even without recent feats, his past space cheese and highest showings equals the most ludicrous of any of the characters being discussed.I always sort of knew I was in the minority by counting older stuff equal to recent feats, but I think the hardcore recency bias is a problem unto itself. Just statistically, if you only focus on a smaller chunk of time, the fluctuations will be wilder. Like a stock that averages 7% gains per year, but you're looking at month-to-month. Because chances are the pendulum will swing the other way at some point, or DC will plateau, etc. So in terms of griping about these things, widening our gaze might help immensely.
/srug
it's for recent specifically only because i feel like the pendulum has really begun to only in more recent years. i see what you're saying--we have great feats from the past that can maybe match the recent dc ones. and maybe there are, but i don't think the number of even these older feats matches the more recent showings from dc. i think it can now legitimately be argued that hal and superman could b viewed as trans based on their recent feats. ww too could fall in that category. in the past, it was pretty definitively held that they were heralds. the older marvel feats weren't enough to raise those older marvel heroes to trans--ever. see the difference i'm trying to get at?
and again, ultimately, whatever. but it feels like the divide is getting larger. i'm open to being to proven wrong, but i've seen next to nothing posted (other than hulk) from marvel to prove me wrong. and even if a couple feats ARE shown, i don't think they can match the sheer number of feats performed by dc guys of late.
again, that's my perception of things and may not be accurate.
So from what I've gathered by the wealth of information in this thread is that leo f*cking hates DC.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Jessica tanked a big bang too?
How you been Bran?
Originally posted by leonidas
it's for recent specifically only because i feel like the pendulum has really begun to only in more recent years. i see what you're saying--we have great feats from the past that can maybe match the recent dc ones. and maybe there are, but i don't think the number of even these older feats matches the more recent showings from dc. i think it can now legitimately be argued that hal and superman could b viewed as trans based on their recent feats. ww too could fall in that category. in the past, it was pretty definitively held that they were heralds. the older marvel feats weren't enough to raise those older marvel heroes to trans--ever. see the difference i'm trying to get at?and again, ultimately, whatever. but it feels like the divide is getting larger. i'm open to being to proven wrong, but i've seen next to nothing posted (other than hulk) from marvel to prove me wrong. and even if a couple feats ARE shown, i don't think they can match the sheer number of feats performed by dc guys of late.
again, that's my perception of things and may not be accurate.
Seems like there's consensus agreement though. And yeah, I see your point and tend to agree with it. Once fictional universes set their boundaries, being internally consistent is important. Power creep hinders that mightily.
I do think the forum has a laughably short memory, though. I'm not talking Silver Age or anything. But we've definitely created a "what have you done lately?" mentality that skews our perception of power levels.
Originally posted by darthgooberHe's overpowered infinite time loops, split Howard casually from the Nexus of Realities (though he still shared a psychic link), casually manipulated a cosmic storm that was going to destroy a planet, outpaced universal destruction, replicated the Never Queen's heart... power, and also seems like he transmuted it into a toy monkey. One punched Warrior Zero when he got serious (wait for it), slapped an army of horses including Beta Ray Bill, Thorse and Ego back to their homes, overpowered the Zenn Lavian merged Avengers including Jane Thor, and some other stuff in the last 3-4 years. I'd have to look at the fight where he fought the planet, and was manipulating her, cutting off sound, and then blasted her apart, since I don't think it's as easy as that. I probably won't go look at it though.
Don't forget the fact that he's now older than the universe itself(for that matter he's actually older than Galactus by... well basically however old he was before he traveled to the previous universe lol), can hide from Eternity himself for Eons, and pulled off a solo universal level energy manipulation feet to boot.How you been Bran?
He's done ok for himself. He just doesn't fight that often, or in fights people want him to when he's traveling never before seen planets.
I'm ok. How about yourself?
I won't use recent Hal, since that would be unfair to you.
Originally posted by DigiThe crunch is external plot-device, not his own power. Is using external sources now part of the characters on the forum? The Surfer doesn't start forum fights next to the crunch, the same way Kyle doesn't start next to CPB in order to manipulate it and become Ion.
Channeling the Crunch to decimate Tenebrous/Aegis
Put Surfer in a neutral setting and he'd get stomped by T&A....as he was, until the external plot-device crunch conveniently appeared.
Originally posted by DigiIt destroyed a single planet, and he was outputting energy to beat Morg. Kyle blew up Oa. Kyle has rebuild a planet in its entirety. He has made the sun go supernova John held a planet together. Jessica held a planet together WHILE shielding it from a sun about to go supernova. I could go on and on. Planetary feats are child's play.
or the residual energies from his fight with Morg destroying multiple planets.
Originally posted by DigiIt's easier to surf [get it?] a wave, than to get hit in the face by it, wouldn't you say?
he's gone surfing in supernovas, using the explosion as propulsion, multiple times (for fun, it should be noted).
I'll do you better.
Kyle has contained supernovas in his constructs. John has tanked a supernova, and a planet exploding, one after another, and shielded Martian Manhunter in the process, too.
Originally posted by DigiGreen Lantern rings can alter the size of themselves and/or other beings, aswell.
He could enter or exit the microverse
Hell, Kyle could manipulate planck-distance (i.e. the smallest length possible) to basically manipulate reality:
https://imgur.com/a/Bb45u
John has sent GL energy at sub-atomic level to combat opponents etc.
Originally posted by Digi
He's also existed without a physical body, fwiw.
Originally posted by DigiThere's dozens of instances of Green Lanterns transmutating their own body, other people's body, devolving people, shapeshifting etc. I mean, I know you're just listing random stuff you can remember, but this isn't even close to proving any point. Kyle has existed literally as a spirit form (see JLA Obsidian Age, for example), among the other crazy shit they've done.
shape shift into an old lady
Originally posted by Digilol? The Green Lantern ring is literally tracking stuff across the Universe, countless times. Even through time itself. Even to the other side of the Universe, such as the Source Wall. It's tracked energy trails, vibrations, psychic signatures, subatomic telepaths (lol) and a shitload of stuff.
then follow the movement of a dust mote from light years away.
The rings are also AI, and can be programmed to track specific movements. Like, for example, John telling the ring to shoot anybody above the speed of sound.
Originally posted by DigiKyle and Kilowog has modified an entire planet's ecosystem. They've altered the DNA of opponents, transmutated nuclear missles etc.
that time he evolved the biology of an entire planet's species billions of years in like a single panel (he's got a few that are similar, too, of creating life ex nihilo)
Hal has literally stopped time across the planet to stretch into nanoseconds. Good luck matching that.
Originally posted by DigiThat's simply not true. I know all of Surfer's feats, so I feel quite comfortable in saying that I can approximate all of them, while you won't be able to do so for Green Lanterns.
Thor's fight with Mercy alone is another good example of this. Obviously he's taken a gut punch in recent years, but his historic best is comparable to anyone's who doesn't transcend into abstract godhood..
Originally posted by DigiYou can't throw a firecracker, and then just say "I won't argue full stop". If you say he is more powerful than Green Lanterns - nevermind current Hal, who is several tiers above usual Green Lanterns, then you have to prove it and don't go for "Many on the forum agreed in 2007!".
I feel like you're missing my point by pulling into a "show me the feats" war. Maybe a handful of GLs have better feats, and maybe you aren't really counting the versatility stuff that isn't over 9000, so to speak. But that list is like 1/30 of his best feats. So I won't argue with you if you just disagree, full stop. I don't care enough to parse them out any further. But you start splitting hairs after a certain point and unless we grant abstract status to heralds, there's just going to be several that exist in that upper strata, give or take small degrees of power.
Like, I get that you don't have the physical time to stay that much on the forums, but you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
Originally posted by ParmaniacI'll try to fetch scans when I can.
@Phil"Kyle and Kilowog has modified an entire planet's ecosystem. [b]They've altered the DNA of opponents
, transmutated nuclear missles etc. "Do you have a scan of that? Not that I don't believe you, I just like to see that. [/B]
I'm posting when I find gaps in time.
Originally posted by One Big MobGalactus ship crashed into Alpha/Omega, causing it to split apart in opposite directions. You can actually see the two pieces moving away from Galactus' ship [i.e. Surfer's location] to expand into the Universe/Eternity, like a carpet. It's like having a gun that shoots in opposite directions to your location, and you consider it a durability feat of tanking the bullets. It wasn't even close to being presented as such, either.
Because he knew Galactus' ship was the epicenter of the big bang, and he knew it would take him to the next universe.Which is why he had to grab onto his ship, as otherwise he might not have "arrived" in the new universe.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hvfMNOgKqkQ/WfB7rITmbvI/AAAAAAAAFgQ/tK90J-lVb3cWgPEe-upVMXRSfQ_mDbWbACHMYCw/s1600/RCO003.jpgHim being in a void is consistent with a big bang, yes:
"After the initial expansion, the universe cooled sufficiently to allow the formation of_subatomic particles, and later simple_atoms. Giant clouds of these primordial elements later coalesced through_gravity_in halos of_dark matter, eventually forming the_stars_and_galaxies_visible today."Though not sure what your argument would be here. There was a void and then everything formed because nothing happened?
I don't even want to start mentioning the fact that there were different laws of physics and his power cosmic worked completely different, until the 616 Universe was reformed, rendering everything invalid...even if you think that it...showed something?
Oh gawd this again.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
👆And for anyone bringing up outrunning the destruction of the previous universe yadda yadda, that's not the point.
The act of G's ship splitting the Alpha/Omega is what caused the big bang. All potential matter and energy was contained inside said Alpha/Omega.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s34bLKlSnrg/WO5EGxWOh8I/AAAAAAADM5M/dMxN6vb6YaMRMpLmyIUgdgKQQmhG7434wCLcB/s1600/071_006.jpgAs far as I know he wasn't inside the incuba-cell to shield him from such an explosion.
Massive feat any way u look at it. Surprising for a herald, I guess? But Surfer is usually considered in the high end of heralds and has a bevy of wtf feats. So not really all that surprising in the end.
Originally posted by leonidasRead the two Silver Surfer series, they're quick mini-series basically.
some of bran's ss feats sound pretty cool if they are as he remembers them. certainly they sound like they are up there in power level....
Bran likes to use flower language, lol. The one thing I did find impressive was the phasing out of existence feat. That was great.
Originally posted by Philosophíawait what?
Galactus ship crashed into Alpha/Omega, causing it to split apart in opposite directions. You can actually see the two pieces moving away from Galactus' ship [i.e. Surfer's location] to expand into the Universe/Eternity, like a carpet. It's like having a gun that shoots in opposite directions to your location, and you consider it a durability feat of tanking the bullets. It wasn't even close to being presented as such, either.I don't even want to start mentioning the fact that there were different laws of physics and his power cosmic worked completely different, until the 616 Universe was reformed, rendering everything invalid...even if you think that it...showed something?
If we take your interpretation as an indication, we would have a big bang that didn't form outwards in 360 degrees. You realize energy doesn't have to follow the two halves, don't you? You realize running into an explosion wouldn't magically bypass the explosion?
But anyway, we were told what would happen if Surfer ran into it anyway:
Also I'm curious where you were going with your "void" argument. The fact that we saw him front and center of the big bang means it's pointless to point out. But if you're arguing that he exited the universe to watch the universe form, then that would imply, at least by that series that he blew a hole in reality and slipped through. Which is a great feat don't get me wrong, but it wasn't stated on panel.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
wait what?If we take your interpretation as an indication, we would have a big bang that didn't form outwards in 360 degrees. You realize energy doesn't have to follow the two halves, don't you? You realize running into an explosion wouldn't magically bypass the explosion?
But anyway, we were told what would happen if Surfer ran into it anyway:
Also I'm curious where you were going with your "void" argument. The fact that we saw him front and center of the big bang means it's pointless to point out. But if you're arguing that he exited the universe to watch the universe form, then that would imply, at least by that series that he blew a hole in reality and slipped through. Which is a great feat don't get me wrong, but it wasn't stated on panel.
The two halves, as have been described, are a box to the Universe. Once the halves are separated, the Universe expands. The Universe is described as potential matter and energy, which the coalesces into actual matter and energy. The initial state of the Universe is basically a void that is constantly expanding. That's why it's said to be potential matter and energy, because it's not there yet. It's why Surfer has no reaction as the parts are separated, because he's not actually hit with anything - and nothing is even directed at him anyway. It's crazy to me that you'd see this as a durability feat in any way.
W-w---whyy did you just post that scan, to help me? Why crop it, lol? The next part is relevant. Surfer and Dawn are going back in time there and actually pass through the stages of the Universe [i.e. the big bang] in order to end up in the previous Universe. They're distorted due to the fact that time/space are meaningless, but are undamaged since, again, they're not actually hit with anything, it's just a timeless/spaceless region of non-Universe:
Are we supposed to ignore how the series portrays the big bang, and how Surfer isn't hit with anything, to pretend that it's the bestest durability feat ever?
BONUS: different laws of physics/power cosmic scan.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
He's overpowered infinite time loops, split Howard casually from the Nexus of Realities (though he still shared a psychic link), casually manipulated a cosmic storm that was going to destroy a planet, outpaced universal destruction, replicated the Never Queen's heart... power, and also seems like he transmuted it into a toy monkey. One punched Warrior Zero when he got serious (wait for it), slapped an army of horses including Beta Ray Bill, Thorse and Ego back to their homes, overpowered the Zenn Lavian merged Avengers including Jane Thor, and some other stuff in the last 3-4 years. I'd have to look at the fight where he fought the planet, and was manipulating her, cutting off sound, and then blasted her apart, since I don't think it's as easy as that. I probably won't go look at it though.He's done ok for himself. He just doesn't fight that often, or in fights people want him to when he's traveling never before seen planets.
I'm ok. How about yourself?
If Superman did 2 of the things you've put in this post, KMC would rank him as Skyfather. Surfer doesn't get any love.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaSo your argument is that the big bang is actually nothing because the words potential were used? Also the two halves weren't directed at Surfer in case the initial blast was actually something?
The two halves, as have been described, are a box to the Universe. Once the halves are separated, the Universe expands. The Universe is described as potential matter and energy, which the coalesces into actual matter and energy. The initial state of the Universe is basically a void that is constantly expanding. That's why it's said to be potential matter and energy, because it's not there yet. It's why Surfer has no reaction as the parts are separated, because he's not actually hit with anything - and nothing is even directed at him anyway. It's crazy to me that you'd see this as a durability feat in any way.W-w---whyy did you just post that scan, to help me? Why crop it, lol? The next part is relevant. Surfer and Dawn are going back in time there and actually pass through the stages of the Universe [i.e. the big bang] in order to end up in the previous Universe. They're distorted due to the fact that time/space are meaningless, but are undamaged since, again, they're not actually hit with anything, it's just a timeless/spaceless region of non-Universe:
Are we supposed to ignore how the series portrays the big bang, and how Surfer isn't hit with anything, to pretend that it's the bestest durability feat ever?
BONUS: different laws of physics/power cosmic scan.
You realize creating all matter and energy includes creating other forms of energy, correct? That doesn't mean that the initial blast for whatever reason didn't contain energy, it means that it contained all the matter and energy to form other forms of matter. You need an immense release of energy to accomplish this in the first place. You know this too. And every showing of the big bang showed an explosion of energy, or an explosion of something.
The fact that "big bang" was used more than once to describe this phenomenon shows it was an explosion, and it was likened to how Earth scientists describe the big bang, which means it's as we define it, as opposed to a... silent expanse?
Anyway, we see a release of energy twice:
And here we even see the same energy that follows the halves encompass Galactus' entire craft, including where Surfer is. As well as the tell tale signs of an explosion.
The scan says they were rushing together, which would have meant the destruction of the universe, which would have meant running into it when it formed would have released the big bang. As you'll tell, they did not run into and split the two halves. Which you have agreed to as you brought forth this entire argument. There's also stars everywhere in that scan.
We can make some assumptions as to what actually happened if this panel is correct. They were actively traveling back in time at the time, as you just showed them traveling back to the incucube, and then they traveled back further to when the halves were rushing together again at the end of the last universe. The assumption being that they traveled back in time to a couple decades before the halves were about to collide and ended up in the universe. Which seems like the most likely scenario. They went too far back and ended up crashing into that universe.
If we assume the panel was wrong, which it very well could be since some parts don't make sense, and the halves were actually splitting, then we can assume Surfer kept going back in time to a time before nothingness before he got hit by anything. Which I mean, he did, since he went back in time what decades before the universe ended. Which would explain why Dawn asked what was next because Surfer was still actively time traveling. She was wondering what was before the big bang, and Surfer told her nothing because that was the start of time. But before that was another universe, hence why they time traveled.
Are we going to ignore how the series literally calls it what Earth scientists refer to as the big bang? The reason why I cropped it speaks for itself. He called it a big bang and didn't want to run into it with Dawn. Which he didn't, as he time traveled past it.
The only difference to Surfer's powers was his color. Which is why he changed the color of it in the next universe.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaRight, keep it simple.
Aaand sleep.If your next post is more than my 1000ish chars reply, I will hunt you down. I don't have the stamina for extended shit.
Anyway, one thing I didn't cover as well, and because you can't edit replies to you so well, was how do you figure the big bang expanded to eventually form energy and matter within the universe without an explosion of energy?
If it carried all potential matter and energy, how did it spread it out? Did the two halves spread pixie dust among the cosmos? And if so, how did it reach the directions they didn't fly off into? Wouldn't the universe just be one long hallway if that were the case?
