Originally posted by The Ellimist
Adding to the list for the thrusters,5. The fact that more pro-Vader assumptions better reconciles with evidence from the same plot given that Starkiller can blast apart frigates and ragdoll several hundred meter long Tantive IV's, but doesn't just ragdoll Vader, who according to you is like millions of times less powerful.
^ also, typo: Ferus wasn't "the best Jedi in the whole order", he was one of the best (obviously).
Originally posted by Nephthys
Mmm, I think TOR is fairly consistent.
What about on Taris when 'Thor couldn't lift 2 people at once, yet 1 minute later she threw a huge chunk of metal like it's nothing? Or the Shitlander being unable to beat a couple of Skytroopers with the help of Havok Squad, but can fight Arcann alone?
And these are just the 1st 2 that came to mind.
To summarize my reply from the last page (clarifying just in case ILS skips to this page):
The mental gymnastics are pretty clear: apparently Jax Pavan suddenly loses his ability to sense Force presences, Ferus Olin loses his ability to judge combat speed despite being one of the most gifted Jedi in the Order, and Nick forgets all about Kar Vastor's power despite fighting alongside him for decades, right when they encounter Vader.
If you aren't deliberately trying to contort things to lowball Vader, you would reasonably look at three independent, highly credible witnesses and go "yeah they're saying the same thing [that Vader is a beast], they're probably right".
Okay, so for starters, TIE Fighter and any dropship are completely impossible to compare in terms of their engine power. "4000 years of tech development" is really simplifying it too much, I'll explain you why, guys.
Dropship is so immensely larger than a starfighter it can't really be described. We don't need to know the specific details of this one dropship, they are too different in their build as a whole. All of the dropships are by nature far larger than starfighters. They're designed to carry entire squads of troops to dump onto the battlefield, the entire forces. Not just one guy in a cockpit using the armament of the ship itself. Do not mistake a dropship with stuff like LAAT gunships from Clone Wars - no, dropship is designed to carry those inside and transport the forces to the ground or other ships.
One of the smallest dropships you can find in Legends is Imperial Dropship Transport. It carries: 2 missile launchers and 4 cannons, 18 troopers. Even this dropship, one of the smallest, is 3 times as wide as the TIE Fighter, and 2.5 times as long. And it's really one of the smallest you can find, guys.
So we come to the obvious. Energy of the dropship's movement is far greater; the power the engines need to propel the dropship into the air is immensely larger than that needed to propel a far smaller starfighter.
The argument of "4000 years of tech development" really doesn't make sense here. It makes sense when we talk about the quality of shields, armament and this kind of stuff, but as far as atmospheric flight goes, there's no difference. TIE Fighter's maximum atmospheric speed is 1200 km/h. You guys know these starfighters from KotOR, the S-250 Chela, from Lehon battle and Telos battle? Their maximum atmospheric speed is... 1200 km/h as well. So, the only way for the energy output of the moving object (and equally the force of engines) of TIE Fighter to be better would be if the metals its made of were insanely more dense.
But this wouldn't really add up. TIE Fighters are the lightest starfighters you can get. They lack life support systems. They lack deflector shields. They lack hyperdrive. They only have the cockpit and armament. They are the lightest and simplest starfighters ever made, designed to be produced in hordes.
So what we have here is the lightest starfighter possible versus a dropship, an entirely different class of several times heavier machines... with no differences across the ages made in atmospheric speed reachable for the engines of spacecraft... really no comparison guys. Malgus was fighting an obviously levels higher pull.
Not interfering with the debate, do with this stuff what you want to, just wanted to repair the oversimplification, since you stepped into my lawn. 👆
Originally posted by JKBart
The argument of "4000 years of tech development" really doesn't make sense here. It makes sense when we talk about the quality of shields, armament and this kind of stuff, but as far as atmospheric flight goes, there's no difference. TIE Fighter's maximum atmospheric speed is 1200 km/h. You guys know these starfighters from KotOR, the S-250 Chela, from Lehon battle and Telos battle? Their maximum atmospheric speed is... 1200 km/h as well. So, the only way for the energy output of the moving object (and equally the force of engines) of TIE Fighter to be better would be if the metals its made of were insanely more dense.
Nope. The only remotely plausible reasons for the ludicrously contradictory acceleration and max atmospheric speed figures (3,000 g's acceleration but only 1200 km/h max speed? WTF?) would have to do with some specific interaction limitations between the fighters and the atmosphere - unlikely to be stress-related because if they can handle thousands of g's of acceleration air resistance is a trivial addition, so it might be some sort of safety mechanism, maneuverability limitation, or something else.
That means nothing with respect to the tie fighter's thrust given that it clearly isn't moving anywhere near said top speed and Starkiller is trying to escape Vader's grasp, so he's not really going to be worried about any of the other stuff.
The other option is to take Leland Chee's decree that Saxton's ICS's, written by an astrophysicist, take precedent with respect to such calculations over the wild ramblings of authors who pulled random figures out of their asses.
(This also doesn't address the other ambiguities in comparing the two feats, not that you were trying to)
The data is clear, the maximum speed they are set to reach in an atmospheric flight is 1200 km/h for both. Even if the limitation comes from security measures (I agree, it should be because of manual impossibility for the pilot to retain control at speeds higher than that), the limitation is there and means engines can't go above this specific limit of power. So their power is limited within the atmosphere at this specific cap either way, and this limit remained the same throughout the ages. Engines from both these times can't go above this specific power. So in terms of atmospheric flight, given no difference in the cap of 4000 BBY starfighter and TIE Fighter, dropship from TOR era is equally more powerful in its pull than the ancient starfighter and TIE Fighter, if both are locked at the same cap, and dropship is just several times heavier.
On the other hand, I guess you could potentially say that the safety mechanism capping it at 1200km/h just stops the ability to speed up when the meter reaches this speed, but it would just be far more logical, solid, and safe to limit the general power of the engine itself so that - including the atmospheres' densities, and the weight of the spacecraft - it's locked at the power allowing max 1200km/h. Otherwise you could easily have starfighters momentarily reaching suicide speeds if the pilot is fighting some kind of tractor beam and stuff like that.
So i'm still definitely holding the TOR's dropship's pull as > TIE Fighter tbh.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
elim seems to be winning but tbh, getting in such a long debate with someone who's obviously just ****ing with you is kinda an l
Well it gets boring when there's almost no opposition to the PT brigade anymore and the forum seems pretty dead. Though I guess I should take that time to be productive irl 🙂
Originally posted by JKBart
On the other hand, I guess you could potentially say that the safety mechanism capping it at 1200km/h just stops the ability to speed up when the meter reaches this speed, but it would just be far more logical, solid, and safe to limit the general power of the engine itself so that - including the atmospheres' densities, and the weight of the spacecraft - it's locked at the power allowing max 1200km/h. Otherwise you could easily have starfighters momentarily reaching suicide speeds if the pilot is fighting some kind of tractor beam and stuff like that.
How would that be suicide speeds? If I'm trying to escape a tractor beam (aka Vader's TK) I'm not going to care about the safety mechanisms like maneuverability or whatever unless if I'm aiming right at a hard surface or something (but it appears as though the tie fighter was in the direction of the sky). Likewise, given that these fighters' computers are precise enough to drop out of hyperspace within like a few hundred meters of a particular target (<<<< nanosecond reaction times) it shouldn't be too difficult for it to precisely track when its thrusters are being counteracted and when they're not for when the safety mechanism should lock on.
Of course OOU most sourcebook authors didn't know what they were talking about and we're trying to come up with convoluted explanations on their behalf. 🙂
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nope. The only remotely plausible reasons for the ludicrously contradictory acceleration and max atmospheric speed figures (3,000 g's acceleration but only 1200 km/h max speed? WTF?) would have to do with some specific interaction limitations between the fighters and the atmosphere - unlikely to be stress-related because if they can handle thousands of g's of acceleration air resistance is a trivial addition, so it might be some sort of safety mechanism, maneuverability limitation, or something else.
Elm, forgive my intrusion, but you seem to be slightly bewildered. Wookiepedia states the atmospheric speed of the Tie is 1200 km/h. But, this is not corroborated by any source which mentions the vessel. The Tie's max speed is stated in both The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and Starships of the Galaxy (Saga Edition). Both sources claim that the max velocity of the tie fighter is 1200 km/h. Notice, how the word atmospheric is not used nor implied in either statement.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
(3,000 g's acceleration but only 1200 km/h max speed? WTF?)
😆 Notice, how the acceleration is mentioned alongside the speed in the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. (The G's are also higher in the image, so much for your physics.)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
How would that be suicide speeds? If I'm trying to escape a tractor beam (aka Vader's TK) I'm not going to care about the safety mechanisms like maneuverability or whatever unless if I'm aiming right at a hard surface or something (but it appears as though the tie fighter was in the direction of the sky). Likewise, given that these fighters' computers are precise enough to drop out of hyperspace within like a few hundred meters of a particular target (<<<< nanosecond reaction times) it shouldn't be too difficult for it to precisely track when its thrusters are being counteracted and when they're not for when the safety mechanism should lock on.
Where has it been stated in any source ever that the Tie Fighter has hidden reserves which supply SO much energy that it surpasses the massive dropship? I also find it cute that you would assume that the Tie Fighter has safety mechanisms. The Tie Fighter has no combat shields, hyperdrive, life-support systems, or oxygen during ejections. Most Tie pilots considered the tie to be a suicide machine which prioritizes speed over all else. The empire prided themselves on the affordability of the ships. But go ahead and keep squirming.
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Elm, forgive my intrusion, but you seem to be slightly bewildered. Wookiepedia states the atmospheric speed of the Tie is 1200 km/h. But, this is not corroborated by any source which mentions the vessel. The Tie's max speed is stated in both The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and Starships of the Galaxy (Saga Edition). Both sources claim that the max velocity of the tie fighter is 1200 km/h. Notice, how the word atmospheric is not used nor implied in either statement.
And just what, exactly, is a "maximum velocity" in a vacuum supposed to be, dare tell me? Maximum velocity relative to what? The non-existent ether? The only speed limit in space is c, lmfao. You could say that this is the maximum delta a tie fighter could achieve with its fuel, but that's implausible because in ANH we see X-wings circumnavigate the gas giant Yavin in like ~2 minutes, which would require a change in velocity astronomically greater than 1200 kph (among numerous examples). Nor is it plausible that a tie fighter can't reach speeds that a modern fighter jet casually can.
Rather, the "atmospheric" qualifier is:
1. Aligned with figures for other vehicles that use the "atmospheric" qualifier, which is also problematic but at least not totally incoherent.
2. In either case a better-than-nothing rationalization for an otherwise meaningless term.
3.
Spoiler:
It's literally an RPG mechanic that creates a constant speed to avoid having to deal with the mathematics of accelerating bodies in a vacuum, lmfao.
😆 Notice, how the acceleration is mentioned alongside the speed in the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. (The G's are also higher in the image, so much for your physics.)
... 😐
1200 mph = 536 meters / second, which at the 4100 g's listed the tie fighter would reach in about a tenth of a second. What happens then? Do the engines magically die out because they hit 1200 mph relative to an imaginary absolute reference frame?
BTW, concession accepted, because the relevant figure here is thrust, not "maximum velocity", and you just demonstrated that the engines of a tie fighter can generate the thrust needed to accelerate it by 4,100 g's, which is insane. Whether it then reaches a "maximum velocity" is irrelevant.
Where has it been stated in any source ever that the Tie Fighter has hidden reserves which supply SO much energy that it surpasses the massive dropship? I also find it cute that you would assume that the Tie Fighter has safety mechanisms. The Tie Fighter has no combat shields, hyperdrive, life-support systems, or oxygen during ejections. Most Tie pilots considered the tie to be a suicide machine which prioritizes speed over all else. The empire prided themselves on the affordability of the ships. But go ahead and keep squirming.
You literally have no idea what you're talking about. If there are no safety mechanisms then that's a point in my favor, because that means that Starkiller would have been able to access the 4,100 g's. Likewise, you have absolutely no metric with which to conclude that it's unfeasible given the tech base for the tie fighter to supply "SO much energy" over 4,000+ years of technological progress. If you want to do an actual analysis, be my guest - but you are obviously totally incapable of grasping even the most basic of physics and literally argued against your own case by noting the acceleration figures and then shooting down the possibility of a safety mechanism.
Literally one of the most embarrassing arguments I've ever seen. 0/10, go back to struggling with pre-calculus. 👆