Exar Kun vs. Mace Windu

Oh not forgetting of course that Vader's cybernetics were the reason his personal force power was severely weakened. Lumiya holds that notion too. So the more trivial powers the star forge grants him being the "powers" referred to in the quote is a definite possibility.

This goes hand in hand with the fact that Spirit Kun still shits on all of SF Malak's conventional feats.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Once again, Neither of which enhanced their personal force powers rather than the material itself....

Originally posted by JMANGO
Oh not forgetting of course that Vader's cybernetics were the reason his personal force power was severely weakened. Lumiya holds that notion too. So the more trivial powers the star forge grants him being the "powers" referred to in the quote is a definite possibility.

This goes hand in hand with the fact that Spirit Kun still shits on all of SF Malak's conventional feats.

And yeah, considering that Force-enhanced objects, such as those made by Sith alchemists, are considered as being "Force sensitive" in their own right and can grant Force powers to non-Force users, then they absolutely enhance the powers of the wearer.

Which, you know, readily explains why Malak personally drawing from the Star Forge, the much greater whole of what paltry star maps make up (which blew the mind of Muur and co.), which can power and create an infinite army of starships and war droids, would be more powerful than Kun, who merely had an amulet at his disposal. You could just accept the unfair advantage for what it is rather than get torn up over it.

Originally posted by ILS
[B]Not sure what you mean. The reason for Vader's weakened Force power wasn't the cybernetics; that would be his severed limbs. The cybernetics were the reason he could walk.

That makes sense. Conceded.

And yeah, considering that Force-enhanced objects, such as those made by Sith alchemists, are considered as being "Force sensitive" in their own right and can grant Force powers to non-Force users, then they absolutely enhance the powers of the wearer.

There are plenty of objects that grant the user additional "powers". For example, the force enhanced object Muur wears around his neck allowed him to create and spread the plague of the rakghul at his personal whim. The Sith amulet of Lord Rin Shuuir could be used to heal wounds and Ragnos' sceptre could be used to reanimate the dead. So there's still reason to believe the text is referring to "techniques" here, hence the plurality of the word. And the star forge grants the user many non conventional abilties that fit the bill.

the much greater whole of what paltry star maps make up (which blew the mind of Muur and co.)

Which means nothing in the grand scheme of things. All that means is that he had a better weapon than them. It's not a reliable proxy to compare his power to theirs even when he's being amplified by it.

Which, you know, readily explains why Malak personally drawing from the Star Forge, which can power and create an infinite army of starships and war droids, would be more powerful than Kun who merely had an amulet at his disposal.

The implication here is that when Malak taps into the Star Forge he's drawing from all it's power at once, rather than it being either a passive amplification and just a small part of it's power being funnelled though him. In fact, the only time he ever actively draws energy from anywhere is when he uses the Jedi captives as food. More imporanly this line of reasoning could be used to used to put him above anyone who doesn't use a similar source of power to amp their abilties. That cleary isn't the case seen as Revan, who merely had himself at his disposal, kicked the shit out of him. Kun likewise would do the same due to a vast disparity in their personal power.

You could just accept the unfair advantage for what it is rather than get torn up over it.

There is no evidence that the star forge amps his personal force power beyond Kun's. There is no evidence that the "amp" Malak gets from the star forge gives him a similar level of power relative to it's ship creating function. Naga Shadows ship triggers supernova's, yet it never gave one of it's pilots, the ability to replicate that level of power into a different force expression. And once again, the conventional powers Malak displayed while on the star forge, still come up hilariously short of Kun's which has me unconvinced.

Originally posted by JMANGO

There are plenty of objects that grant the user additional "powers". For example, the force enhanced object Muur wears around his neck allowed him to create and spread the plague of the rakghul at his personal whim. The Sith amulet of Lord Rin Shuuir could be used to heal wounds and Ragnos' sceptre could be used to reanimate the dead. So there's still reason to believe the text is referring to "techniques" here, hence the plurality of the word. And the star forge grants the user many non conventional abilties that fit the bill.

However, it is noted that Malak accomplished the greater challenge of "controlling" the "power" of the Forge, "trapping into" it's "dark energy."

"There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power. Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith... the end of the Force."

--Bastila Shan (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

"In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate."

--Ancient Rakata Computer (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

The implication here is that when Malak taps into the Star Forge he's drawing from all it's power at once

, rather than it being either a passive amplification and just a small part of it's power being funnelled though him. In fact, the only time he ever actively draws energy from anywhere is when he uses the Jedi captives as food.

More imporanly this line of reasoning could be used to used to put him above anyone who doesn't use a similar source of power to amp their abilties.

That cleary isn't the case seen as Revan, who merely had himself at his disposal, kicked the shit out of him. Kun likewise would do the same due to a vast disparity in their personal power.

There is no evidence that the star forge amps his personal force power beyond Kun's.

Will respond to the star forge conundrum at some point tomorrow. But this has to be explained first :

Originally posted by ILS

While "the Force flowed through Revan like no student" the Jedi had ever seen, including Kun

Which presumably comes from this quote.

"The Force flows through you like no student we have ever seen."

―Vrook Lamar (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

Where is the proof that Vrook Lmar and his associates ever saw Exar Kun ?

The Star Forge doesn't need to beget Malak more power than Kun, as that doesn't factor in with the full quote anyway. Nor do we need to ignore the fact that Exar Kun himself was a dark side nexus like Sidious, one of the strongest Luke had ever had to face, putting him above Byss which gave the Emperor such a powerful amp that his Force powers were more like an after-thought than an actual exercise.

Which all, of course, explains why Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd were 'great powers' on a galactic scale. The former of whom was felt through the Force by Jedi across the galaxy, prior to immediate power growth, as well as three more excessive growths in power.

You can't use the Star Forge scaling off of Star Maps and then amulets to argue that Malak is naturally more powerful. Not when Karness Muur is entire magnitudes less powerful than Exar Kun.

That's still not even predicated on the fact that Kun is canonically on the same level of power as Sidious is, by any and all sources, whereas Malak is clearly not. He's not even holistically portrayed as being as powerful as Kun in the very game he's the antagonist of.

People have all of this backwards, that interpretation of this quote is the outlier in an established order. Nor is the quote even succinct in what it conveys:

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

The quote has already established that Malak's power is 'devastating'. It'd be quite redundant to go back to his power. Luckily, the quote in reference refers to 'powers', plural. There are many interpretations here. One could even argue that it refers to physical prowess and durability. Especially given how it references cybernetic enhancements of his body. Point being, it's not even remotely as definitive as others would like it to be.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Will respond to the star forge conundrum at some point tomorrow. But this has to be explained first :

Which presumably comes from this quote.

Where is the proof that Vrook Lmar and his associates ever saw Exar Kun ?

There is none, the Jedi Council on Dantooine didn't even exist until Vodo; Kun's master and the Watchman of Dantooine, died.

Originally posted by AncientPower
There is none, the Jedi Council on Dantooine didn't even exist until Vodo; Kun's master and the Watchman of Dantooine, died.

Yep.

Vrook lamar and his associates were never around to oversee the training of exar Kun, so he can't be included in the quote.

As a matter of fact, the entire Jedi order overwent a massive reorganisation, designed specifically to prevent the Kun war from happening again.

@AP

I think it's pretty clear WotC had the intent to make Star Forge Malak to be greater than Exar Kun, elsewise they'd have been more careful with the words. You have merit, though, when you state "far greater powers" could be referring, even in great part, to the tangibles offered by the Star Forge, rather than power, solely. Especially considering the open and undefined character of the quote.

If we're going off of intent:

Avellone: Ancient Sith Lords >> MV!Traya > SF!Malak
(Kun is more powerful than all of the Ancient Sith Lords)

Veitch: Exar Kun ~ Sidious >>> SF!Malak

There are many interpretations of that quote and immediately interpreting it in a way specifically designed to claim that Malak is factually >> Kun, is egregious at best.

I'm saying intent that was actually writen on licensed material.

You can't assume intent in something that can be interpreted in multiple different ways.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If we're going off of intent:

Avellone: Ancient Sith Lords >> MV!Traya > SF!Malak

Nah, we don't need Avellone to state Traya > Malak when the sources of power at their disposal is clearly in favor of Traya. Worse yet for your claim is that Avellone:

1.Said Darth Revan would win due to how he fights and not by how much power he brings to the table.

2.Clarified something already stated in the actual source material. The differences are enormous.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nah, we don't need Avellone to state Traya > Malak when the sources of power at their disposal is clearly in favor of Traya. Worse yet for your claim is that Avellone:

1.Said Darth Revan would win due to how he fights and not by how much power he brings to the table.

2.Clarified something already stated in the actual source material. The differences are enormous.

Question: "You've said and implied many times that Revan is an immensely powerful character, and fans have been wondering for nearly a decade now what would have happened if Revan would have entered the scene during the Dark Wars. Assuming he knew of Kreia's devious plot to destroy the Force itself, he would most likely try to stop her before too much harm is done. In a hypothetical situation where that since Exile served as a unknowing pawn of Kreia's true intentions for the duration of the game, she would battle alongside Kreia, who do you think would prevail in that climatic battle? The Dark Lord Revan, or the Lord of Betrayal and "the hope of all life" (as Mical would describe her/him)?"

Answer: "If the Exile could defeat Kreia, Revan would have an easier time of it. (;_United with the Exile, Kreia and the Exile vs. Revan? My money’s still on Revan, since in my mind, Revan was a master strategist as well as an extremely powerful Force wielder. Granted, it depends on the circumstances, but everything else being equal, Revan’s just... Revan. Kreia’s still stuck in the past, and the Exile has their own issues. Note this is just focused on the games – I’m not calling into account anything that used to be/was in the Expanded Universe."

You can stop telling lies at any moment. No source material has put Kraya even remotely close to Malak, or the Trayus Academy over the freaking Star Forge, either.

You can learn to read at any moment, he clearly references him being a brilliant strategist and the mental states of his opponents. You're also ignoring the fact that he completely ignores everything that isn't in KotOR 2. So this is literally just his pure hype version of Revan, who never even appears in the game beyond a vision of him in Ludo Kressh's temple.

Source material clearly states that Revan kept the secrets and power of Malachor V away from Malak, and that Revan valued Malachor's powers of corruption and dark side energy. We also have direct comparisons, which don't end well for the station.

We don't need to drag the Traya v Malak debate into another unrelated thread.

Mace wins given his capacity to compete with a factually far superior Sith Lord.

You mean the height of his greatest performance being incapable of tanking Sheev's continuous Force Lightning? Oh and, do tell me how Sheev is far superior to Exar Kun. In the end, the sources claiming he's already GOAT Sith by TPM don't even look to be Legends but Canon. After that we're left with ROTS quotes, which whilst true, do nothing to factually state a vast disparity. I'm not claiming Kun is as powerful as Sheev, but he's obviously in his weight class.

The gulf between Sidious and Kun has been widened because other Sith, namely Malak, Revan, Vitiate and Plagueis, have now been inserted in between them.