Immortal Hulk vs All-Star Superman,

Right, I can now give this reply the attention it deserves.

Originally posted by carver9
Darksaint still use JLA showings in his arguments though. I understand why he is trying to flip it here. At the end of the day, Hulk powered through some elites. It Supermen would've did what Hulk did to the JLA, he would've been all over it. Not paying him any attention.

I use JLA showings - which are backed up by solo showings.

Flash IMPs a White Martian? Sure, he did so against Zoom.

Evacuates a city/runs from the Source Wall to Earth? Sure, he outran Death in his own book.

But WAIT! Let's use team showings.

Batman (you knew he was coming, didn't you??). Batman. In his own books, struggles with muggers, was broken by Bane, struggles against the friggin' Riddler. Hell, he sometimes struggles against Calendar Man, who is basically the Riddler but shittier. Has a rogue who flies around Gotham on a kite - in a universe where jetpacks are seemingly readily available.

In team showings? He clocks Zoom. Withstands beatings from Mongul, WW, Shaggy Man. Catwoman starts KOing FlashES. He takes Superman out with a whistle. Steals Hal Jordan's ring. The list goes on.

Team Batman is written up - or, team heralds etc are written down in a team setting, so others look good. In this scenario, Hulk is Batman. The team is written down to make him look good.

Let's ignore Batman, I know you don't like him. Let's go with Jane.

In her own book, this happens. Mjolnir dents vibranium and adamantium:
https://imgur.com/a/NBQnX

And can sense life force, no matter how faint:
http://i.imgur.com/Clk9qiU.jpg

In an Avengers book?

She is still the top tier in terms of strength etc. But in a team setting, as the others have pointed out, she is now the top tier of a small pool. Rather than being written at level 100 or whatever, she is level 80. Arbitrarily chosen numbers, to illustrate my point btw. Level 80 is still top, but let's not take her level 100 showings and power scale off that.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I never understood this logic....

The team guns were down scaled to justify the other members, it happens on EVERY team. It doesn't mean they aren't elites. They are simply more grounded.

Not everyone is Hickman, where they deal with saving the Multiverse.

Perhaps I should say not AS elite, then. Jane Thor in her own book would beat Jane Thor in team books.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Sure they are. There's the occasional low showings, but they tend to be looked at as go to's for the most part. And team books tend to emphasize on team, so they tend to move away from the showcasing of the heavier hitters.

Being elite doesn't mean you have to blow up a planet or manhandle trans tiers every other issue.

No, but if you and Rage (and I, actually) all agree that Jane/Herc are elites, but they're downgraded, it's not exactly 'elite' overall. So imagine being the one-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind - sure, Jane is an elite, but of a more grounded team. Which downgrades her somewhat.

I mean, before you two jumped in, this was the post I replied to:

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, I can post this version of Hulk then. This version of Hulk stood in one spot and tanked hits from Hercules (who hurt his hand punching Hulk) and Jane Thor. In regards to this, Hercules IS elite in strength and Jane has taken on and defeated Mangog (while punching his teeth out) and Mangog was said to be more powerful than even the Phoenix force. And again, she couldn't budge Hulk. Hell, Hulk brushed her and Herc off just by flexing his muscles.

So if you're saying Team Jane's 'eliteness' is the same as Solo Jane, you're essentially agreeing with Carver here.

Forget about Odin. The Destroyer. Shi-Ar gods and goddesses. The Phoenix Force. Mangog. The Hulk is above them all.

That is the point I am debating against.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Perhaps I should say not AS elite, then. Jane Thor in her own book would beat Jane Thor in team books.

You can say that about every character.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You can say that about every character.

👆

So you and I both agree that Carver's post, which I was replying to, was false.

It shows that current Hulk is operating above Herald level. I know this hurts tremendously but this is what it tells us. You was in agreement in this very thread that Despero pulls a majority due to his team wrecking showing. Not on this page though. I posted this page because Sin, lol, agreed that Despero js above any Hulk die to his team showing against the JLA and JSA. Hypocrites. The ONLY reason you all are doing this is because it's the Hulk.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=594133&pagenumber=11

You also said the same thing in the Despero and Thanos thread.

Originally posted by carver9
It shows that current Hulk is operating above Herald level. I know this hurts tremendously but this is what it tells us. You was in agreement in this very thread that Despero pulls a majority due to his team wrecking showing. Not on this page though. I posted this page because Sin, lol, agreed that Despero js above any Hulk die to his team showing against the JLA and JSA. Hypocrites. The ONLY reason you all are doing this is because it's the Hulk.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=594133&pagenumber=11

You also said the same thing in the Despero and Thanos thread.

Except....EXCEPT my point was that Professor X wasn't as powerful as his normal 'solo' (I know he's usually in a team book) portrayals.

Evidence: Emma Frost. Who straight up blocked him.

IOW, Professor X was being written down to make Hulk look good. Therefore, Hulk was still susceptible to TP.

My very FIRST post in the thread:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And yet, random no name SHIELD agents managed to penetrate his mind.

Charles wasn't attacking him TOGETHER with Emma, they went separately IIRC.

Emma has skill, not so much power (as she gleefully rubs Rachel's face in it).

I was of the opinion that he pulls a majority because WWH wasn't shown to have that great a defence against TP. You brought Charles up. My counterpoint - exactly like in this thread - was that you couldn't power scale.

So no hypocrisy here.

Edit: is Hulk powerful? Sure. 100% agree.

But to powerscale like you do, crossing titles - that Hulk shrugged Jane/Herc off, when they're not shown to be at Mangog/Phoenix/Destroyer levels in team books, is misguided.

To use your example, I might as well say that Superman fights Skyfathers like Darkseid, but was crushed by Despero, therefore Despero is abstract level.

Originally posted by carver9
It shows that current Hulk is operating above Herald level. I know this hurts tremendously but this is what it tells us. You was in agreement in this very thread that Despero pulls a majority due to his team wrecking showing. Not on this page though. I posted this page because Sin, lol, agreed that Despero js above any Hulk die to his team showing against the JLA and JSA. Hypocrites. The ONLY reason you all are doing this is because it's the Hulk.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=594133&pagenumber=11

You also said the same thing in the Despero and Thanos thread.

Darksaint is a Carver contrarian though. A Carvtrarian if you will. Carver could be advocating for a cure for Fetal Alchohol Syndrome and DS would jump in with "Can you tell me why drinking while pregnant is even bad? These women need to relax from time to time too. Prove your point how alchohol is even connected to fetal alchohol syndrome."

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except....EXCEPT my point was that Professor X wasn't as powerful as his normal 'solo' (I know he's usually in a team book) portrayals.

Evidence: Emma Frost. Who straight up blocked him.

IOW, Professor X was being written down to make Hulk look good. Therefore, Hulk was still susceptible to TP.

My very FIRST post in the thread:

I was of the opinion that he pulls a majority because WWH wasn't shown to have that great a defence against TP. You brought Charles up. My counterpoint - exactly like in this thread - was that you couldn't power scale.

So no hypocrisy here.

Edit: is Hulk powerful? Sure. 100% agree.

But to powerscale like you do, crossing titles - that Hulk shrugged Jane/Herc off, when they're not shown to be at Mangog/Phoenix/Destroyer levels in team books, is misguided.

To use your example, I might as well say that Superman fights Skyfathers like Darkseid, but was crushed by Despero, therefore Despero is abstract level.

Titus vs Superman, who pulls the majority? Also, who would you give a majority too, Amazo or Superman? Amazo or Flash?

Darkseid during the beginning of New 52 vs Savage Hulk, who is winning? V&V Despero vs Savage Hulk, who would you give the edge to? The Superman that was in V&V vs Ms. Marvel, who wins?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Lot of good Bran posts in there. A lot of good posts in those last 3 pages. Last two really.

Darksaint is a Carver contrarian though. A Carvtrarian if you will. Carver could be advocating for a cure for Fetal Alchohol Syndrome and DS would jump in with "Can you tell me why drinking while pregnant is even bad? These women need to relax from time to time too. Prove your point how alchohol is even connected to fetal alchohol syndrome."

So I looked up and thought I posted this. Skooted up a little further and realized it was bran. I don't know what to say.

Found more threads where Darksaint gave characters (DC characters) wins over other people due to them having team wrecking showings. Looking for more.

Originally posted by carver9
It shows that current Hulk is operating above Herald level. I know this hurts tremendously but this is what it tells us. You was in agreement in this very thread that Despero pulls a majority due to his team wrecking showing. Not on this page though. I posted this page because Sin, lol, agreed that Despero js above any Hulk die to his team showing against the JLA and JSA. Hypocrites. The ONLY reason you all are doing this is because it's the Hulk.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=594133&pagenumber=11

You also said the same thing in the Despero and Thanos thread.

stop using my name in vein. I have no qualms callomg Hulk a trans tier...my issue is basing it solely off that Avengere issue where he didnt put down anyone noteworthy.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
stop using my name in vein. I have no qualms callomg Hulk a trans tier...my issue is basing it solely off that Avengere issue where he didnt put down anyone noteworthy.

He didn't TRY to. He did not throw a single punch against Thor or Herc and Superboy Prime has been called trans for taking on teams, not killing people (and I cant think of a single showing where Prime fought teams and stood in a spot withstanding their attacks).

Hulk literally stood in a single spot and withstood their attacks. Herc damaged his hand punching Hulk and he flexed and knocked ELITES off of him.

So Sin, who would win in a first fight, V&V Despero or Savage Hulk?

Originally posted by carver9
He didn't TRY to. He did not throw a single punch against Thor or Herc and Superboy Prime has been called trans for taking on teams, not killing people (and I cant think of a single showing where Prime fought teams and stood in a spot withstanding their attacks).

Hulk literally stood in a single spot and withstood their attacks. Herc damaged his hand punching Hulk and he flexed and knocked ELITES off of him.

So Sin, who would win in a first fight, V&V Despero or Savage Hulk?

Despero is not in this thread but yes he would beat Savage. Not WB but Savage.

So Simon is a trans tier? He took two head shots a choke hokd and bear hug and was fine.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

In an Avengers book?
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0LI_E-rhAb8/WedmjeSCtzI/AAAAAAACTm4/f-3AQ_AZzIgkf_ed5U2GjHwrXZPsUDC1QCLcBGAs/s1600/052_0039.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

She is still the top tier in terms of strength etc. But in a team setting, as the others have pointed out, she is now the top tier of a small pool. Rather than being written at level 100 or whatever, she is level 80. Arbitrarily chosen numbers, to illustrate my point btw. Level 80 is still top, but let's not take her level 100 showings and power scale off that.

Perhaps I should say not AS elite, then. Jane Thor in her own book would beat Jane Thor in team books.

No, but if you and Rage (and I, actually) all agree that Jane/Herc are elites, but they're downgraded, it's not exactly 'elite' overall. So imagine being the one-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind - sure, Jane is an elite, but of a more grounded team. Which downgrades her somewhat.

I mean, before you two jumped in, this was the post I replied to:

Forget about Odin. The Destroyer. Shi-Ar gods and goddesses. The Phoenix Force. Mangog. The Hulk is above them all.

That is the point I am debating against.

Iirc Jane fought Annihilus for hours. He's usually considered around low trans. Plus im pretty sure they were slowly being weakened within the Nzone. I think she also ripped his hand out.

Defeated a giant who spits out lightning w/o mew mew. Iirc she was catching his bolts and even punched him through a mountain.

In a Nova book she was with other "elites" like Bill and CptM and were tasked on destroying asteroids hurtling towards earth.

And even in her own book she has relative showings with the Avengers.
Almost all the heroes of earth(implied) were frozen by Malekith and frost giants. She came in and saved everyone.

She stopped a sattelite hurtling from space. The Avengers were in dire straits before she showed up.

They're not elite only if you dwell on the average to low showings.

Originally posted by carver9
Titus vs Superman, who pulls the majority? Also, who would you give a majority too, Amazo or Superman? Amazo or Flash?

Darkseid during the beginning of New 52 vs Savage Hulk, who is winning? V&V Despero vs Savage Hulk, who would you give the edge to? The Superman that was in V&V vs Ms. Marvel, who wins?

Originally posted by carver9
Found more threads where Darksaint gave characters (DC characters) wins over other people due to them having team wrecking showings. Looking for more.

If you are using that search function, I suggest you quote this exact post, which is the point I have been trying to make endlessly:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think it depends on how many showings they have.

Deathstroke has plenty of showings, where, whilst he tags Flash, also has many showings where he is much slower than Flash (hit by bullets, for example).

Therefore, fights don't count as much. Feats do. Because of PIS, or WIS, or whatever, where he has to be shown to be a threat - thus, dumbing down the other side. Why else would Toyman be a fricking threat, lol.

LT? Darkseid? Fights count much more. They don't have as many appearances. ABC scaling is needed. When they enter a fight, it's a pretty damn big deal.

Captain Marvel? He has a fair few appearances. So his feats need to be taken into account. Orion? Fewer - and then, he only seems to be trotted out for fights (he IS the Dog of War, after all). So his fights count for more.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're not understanding my point.

It depends on the number of showings they have, total.

Billy has quite a few showings. So his feats need to be taken into account, more than his fights.

Gladiator does not (relative to Billy). So his fights count for much more than his feats. He is the same like Orion, who has even fewer showings still.

Hulk has TONS of showings. So his fights and feats are all equal(ish) in weighting.

IOW: if a character has very few appearances (LT, In-Betweener, Orion, Galactus) then their fights are a better gauge of their power.

The more showings a character has, and the more they start interacting with other characters, the more their fights get diluted. Lobo is a good example, as are the Lanterns. You yourself acknowledge, in team books Lobo is less impressive. Lanterns are terrible against bricks. That's when their feats become more of a gauge, where writers don't have to dilute them. Batman and Cap are also good examples of this.

This is an earlier post I made which may be less coherent:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I say it depends on the character.

Combat feats are usually shown by baddies. How do you show how powerful Black Adam/Despero/Superboy Prime/Doomsday/Gorr/Voidtry is? You have them run a train on your fav heroes.

These guys will brutally smash and rip their opponents apart.

How do you show how powerful Superman/Thor is? You can't have them bullying large groups of villains, well, you could, but it would quickly get boring. Haha look as Superman defeats an entire army....again. Stay tuned next month when he does the same, only with a different army!

Enter, space cheese feats. He needs to save a world - he pushes it out of the way. Hyperion is a doomed last survivor - two universes explode on him.

In short, we have had this dance for many years. Mangog is an elite, as a villain with very few appearances. Jane Thor defeating him shouldn't take anything away from him, just like it shouldn't ADD anything to her. Otherwise you get into the weird circle where Hulk>Jane>Mangog >Phoenix/Odin>Hulk.

yeah no blanket statement will work, like saying that breaking a team doesn't necessarily show trans powa! it's hilarious that we are jumping all over this most recent hulk feat when in the past he's battled huge teams but no one wanted to jump him to trans then. know why--because sh!t happened that granted further perspective. so what happens when immortal hulk gets punked by the next big villain? is that villain auto skyfather? or wait, is hulk now skyfather level....? hard to keep straight with him nowadays.

he had a good showing ffs--or is it that thor and herc had low ones? i mean she pummels mangog, and can't move hulk? seems like this was a TERRIBLY low showing for jane--maybe one of her worst. can anyone prove this wasn't just a low showing? no? huh. because if they both DID have a low showing, well, that means it wasn't all that great a showing for hulk after all, was it?

very easy to play these scaling games--one way OR the other.

cool showing for hulk. no more than that.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
That's a Thor book.

Obviously she does better in her book.
But we are arguing grades here. I just disagree with a blanket statement of "they are not elites" when it comes to a team setting. At least Jane... Herc, he's barely in any comic except Avengers.

Iirc Jane fought Annihilus for hours. He's usually considered around low trans. Plus im pretty sure they were slowly being weakened within the Nzone. I think she also ripped his hand out.

Defeated a giant who spits out lightning w/o mew mew. Iirc she was catching his bolts and even punched him through a mountain.

In a Nova book she was with other "elites" like Bill and CptM and were tasked on destroying asteroids hurtling towards earth.

And even in her own book she has relative showings with the Avengers.
Almost all the heroes of earth(implied) were frozen by Malekith and frost giants. She came in and saved everyone.

She stopped a sattelite hurtling from space. The Avengers were in dire straits before she showed up.

They're not elite only if you dwell on the average to low showings.

Well, yes, we ARE arguing grades.

Carver is powerscaling off her highest ever feats. Which is fine, if you are also of the opinion that as one of her highest feats (which carver directly references) is fighting Mangog, and he is scaling off her statement that Mangog was more of a danger than the Destroyer, Odin, the Phoenix Force etc, this now means that Hulk is > all of them, then sure, OK.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah no blanket statement will work, like saying that breaking a team doesn't necessarily show trans powa! it's hilarious that we are jumping all over this most recent hulk feat when in the past he's battled huge teams but no one wanted to jump him to trans then. know why--because sh!t happened that granted further perspective. so what happens when immortal hulk gets punked by the next big villain? is that villain auto skyfather? or wait, is hulk now skyfather level....? hard to keep straight with him nowadays.

he had a good showing ffs--or is it that thor and herc had low ones? i mean she pummels mangog, and can't move hulk? seems like this was a TERRIBLY low showing for jane--maybe one of her worst. can anyone prove this wasn't just a low showing? no? huh. because if they both DID have a low showing, well, that means it wasn't all that great a showing for hulk after all, was it?

very easy to play these scaling games--one way OR the other.

cool showing for hulk. no more than that.

👆

Anyway, my posts quoted were like 4 years apart or whatever. Am sure numerous holes can be poked in them.

My original point still stands though. Hulk isn't > Mangog > Phoenix Force or Odin, lol.

Or maybe Immortal Hulk is. He's higher than THE abstract force of creation, the Eater of Stars, the primordial force that galactic empires tremble and shit their pants over. Hulkfather.

Which makes Clint Barton TOAA.

yeah, let it be decreed that hulk won comics. 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, yes, we ARE arguing grades.

Carver is powerscaling off her highest ever feats. Which is fine, if you are also of the opinion that as one of her highest feats (which carver directly references) is fighting Mangog, and he is scaling off her statement that Mangog was more of a danger than the Destroyer, Odin, the Phoenix Force etc, this now means that Hulk is > all of them, then sure, OK.

Phukkin Carver.

never forget again the face of the true enemy. 👆