Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If you are using that search function, I suggest you quote this exact post, which is the point I have been trying to make endlessly:This is an earlier post I made which may be less coherent:
In short, we have had this dance for many years. Mangog is an elite, as a villain with very few appearances. Jane Thor defeating him shouldn't take anything away from him, just like it shouldn't ADD anything to her. Otherwise you get into the weird circle where Hulk>Jane>Mangog >Phoenix/Odin>Hulk.
I understand what you're saying but using what you're saying here, we still have to get a gauge on how powerful the heros are that these people are defeating. Just because the villain or whomever doesn't have that many showings, do we automatically bump the heros up to planet busting, planet moving Darkseid, Mangog fighting levels or do they stay below elite?
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Despero is not in this thread but yes he would beat Savage. Not WB but Savage.So Simon is a trans tier? He took two head shots a choke hokd and bear hug and was fine.
Why would Despero beat Savage?
Simon took those hits from a Hulk that was obviously toying with him. Hulk literally told him during those pages that he could kill him.
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah no blanket statement will work, like saying that breaking a team doesn't necessarily show trans powa! it's hilarious that we are jumping all over this most recent hulk feat when in the past he's battled huge teams but no one wanted to jump him to trans then. know why--because sh!t happened that granted further perspective. so what happens when immortal hulk gets punked by the next big villain? is that villain auto skyfather? or wait, is hulk now skyfather level....? hard to keep straight with him nowadays.he had a good showing ffs--or is it that thor and herc had low ones? i mean she pummels mangog, and can't move hulk? seems like this was a TERRIBLY low showing for jane--maybe one of her worst. can anyone prove this wasn't just a low showing? no? huh. because if they both DID have a low showing, well, that means it wasn't all that great a showing for hulk after all, was it?
very easy to play these scaling games--one way OR the other.
cool showing for hulk. no more than that.
Wonder why you didn't say this when people were parading Superman showing? I don't get it.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, yes, we ARE arguing grades.Carver is powerscaling off her highest ever feats. Which is fine, if you are also of the opinion that as one of her highest feats (which carver directly references) is fighting Mangog, and he is scaling off her statement that Mangog was more of a danger than the Destroyer, Odin, the Phoenix Force etc, this now means that Hulk is > all of them, then sure, OK.
Never said that Hulk was above those people but what I did say is Hulk is above elites.
Originally posted by carver9
I understand what you're saying but using what you're saying here, we still have to get a gauge on how powerful the heros are that these people are defeating. Just because the villain or whomever doesn't have that many showings, do we automatically bump the heros up to planet busting, planet moving Darkseid, Mangog fighting levels or do they stay below elite?
I am saying Mangog is an elite.
I am saying Jane is an elite.
Hulk is an elite.
HOWEVER, I am NOT saying that Hulk>Mangog>Phoenix/Odin.
You are saying that Jane Thor is at her Mangog/Odin fighting levels when she fought Hulk. I am saying she isn't. Why can't it be a low showing for Jane (the fight with Hulk, I mean)? I have shown that low showings indeed exist for Jane - as smellyhymen17 pointed out, sometimes even in her own book.
Look, we know the Jane/Mangog fight was her last ever fight. And in that fight, she said Mangog gave her the greatest challenge she had ever had, and was her most dangerous opponent.
That includes all of her past opponents.
Including Hulk (because she's obv still alive).
So if you want, sure, Hulk can be > Jane. But as per her own admission, Mangog was still her greatest opponent. Hulk wasn't even mentioned in her list.
So it would be: Mangog > Odin/Phoenix/Destroyer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hulk > Jane.
Originally posted by carver9
Never said that Hulk was above those people but what I did say is Hulk is above elites.
Originally posted by carver9
Ok, I can post this version of Hulk then. This version of Hulk stood in one spot and tanked hits from Hercules (who hurt his hand punching Hulk) and Jane Thor. In regards to this, Hercules IS elite in strength and Jane has taken on and defeated Mangog (while punching his teeth out) and Mangog was said to be more powerful than even the Phoenix force. And again, she couldn't budge Hulk. Hell, Hulk brushed her and Herc off just by flexing his muscles.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I am saying Mangog is an elite.I am saying Jane is an elite.
Hulk is an elite.
HOWEVER, I am NOT saying that Hulk>Mangog>Phoenix/Odin.
You are saying that Jane Thor is at her Mangog/Odin fighting levels when she fought Hulk. I am saying she isn't. Why can't it be a low showing for Jane (the fight with Hulk, I mean)? I have shown that low showings indeed exist for Jane - as smellyhymen17 pointed out, sometimes even in her own book.
Look, we know the Jane/Mangog fight was her last ever fight. And in that fight, she said Mangog gave her the greatest challenge she had ever had, and was her most dangerous opponent.
That includes all of her past opponents.
Including Hulk (because she's obv still alive).
So if you want, sure, Hulk can be > Jane. But as per her own admission, Mangog was still her greatest opponent. Hulk wasn't even mentioned in her list.
So it would be: Mangog > Odin/Phoenix/Destroyer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hulk > Jane.
You're making different versions of the same character is what I am disagreeing with. If Captain Marvel in the next comic punch Wonder Woman head off in JLA book, I'm not going to say "he can beat JLA Wonder Woman but he cant beat Wonder Woman". It's like saying HP Doomsday cant beat Martian Manhunter because he didn't beat him in his own book. We don't separate characters, bro.
Originally posted by carver9
You're making different versions of the same character is what I am disagreeing with. If Captain Marvel in the next comic punch Wonder Woman head off in JLA book, I'm not going to say "he can beat JLA Wonder Woman but he cant beat Wonder Woman". It's like saying HP Doomsday cant beat Martian Manhunter because he didn't beat him in his own book. We don't separate characters, bro.
So IYO, the Jane that defeated Mangog (who was said to be more powerful than the Phoenix force) is written to be the exact same power level as the Jane that the Hulk defeated just by flexing his muscles?
And it's very interesting you say that we don't separate characters. Very interesting indeed.
Didn't you say the same about Lobo? That he doesn't do well outside of his own titles?
And didn't you say the same about GLs?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So IYO, the Jane that defeated Mangog (who was said to be more powerful than the Phoenix force) is written to be the exact same power level as the Jane that the Hulk defeated just by flexing his muscles?And it's very interesting you say that we don't separate characters. Very interesting indeed.
Didn't you say the same about Lobo? That he doesn't do well outside of his own titles?
And didn't you say the same about GLs?
What is different about the Jane who defeats Mangog and the Jane who is manhandled by Gladiator?
Originally posted by Sin I AM
toying? seriously? Simom said hulk couldnt hurt him amd he couldnt. youre legit trolling now.
Ummm, he then changed his tone to that even if you do rip my head off, I am ionic energy, and can't die.
Don't get me wrong, Simon was crazy durable in that showing, but Simon would have been broken.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except....EXCEPT my point was that Professor X wasn't as powerful as his normal 'solo' (I know he's usually in a team book) portrayals.Evidence: Emma Frost. Who straight up blocked him.
IOW, Professor X was being written down to make Hulk look good. Therefore, Hulk was still susceptible to TP.
My very FIRST post in the thread:
I was of the opinion that he pulls a majority because WWH wasn't shown to have that great a defence against TP. You brought Charles up. My counterpoint - exactly like in this thread - was that you couldn't power scale.
So no hypocrisy here.
Edit: is Hulk powerful? Sure. 100% agree.
But to powerscale like you do, crossing titles - that Hulk shrugged Jane/Herc off, when they're not shown to be at Mangog/Phoenix/Destroyer levels in team books, is misguided.
To use your example, I might as well say that Superman fights Skyfathers like Darkseid, but was crushed by Despero, therefore Despero is abstract level.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Ummm, he then changed his tone to that even if you do rip my head off, I am ionic energy, and can't die.Don't get me wrong, Simon was crazy durable in that showing, but Simon would have been broken.
That remains to be seen and wasnt my point. He wasnt effected by hulk, was holding back and took two undefended shots to the face....based on other logic that makes him trans
Originally posted by Sin I AM
toying? seriously? Simom said hulk couldnt hurt him amd he couldnt. youre legit trolling now.
Something is wrong Sin. Sigh... Hulk tells Simon he can hurt him which means he wasn't even trying.
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/38087713/Avengers_2016-_686-006.jpg.html#
Hulk punch blood clean out of his mouth which means, HE HURT HIM...
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/38087710/Avengers_2016-_686-004.jpg.html
Squeeze blood out of his mouth.
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/38087714/Avengers_2016-_686-011.jpg.html
And again, Hulk literally tells him he can hurt him. Just stop sin, with everything.
