Lol, the leaps of logic that people are making for Manhattan are amazing, yet the snap is irrelevant. The mental gymnastics are hilarious. Thanos just erased half of all life in the universe from existence, but you start rubbing your balls because Manhattan can blow up regular people by looking at them.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
I think it’s a bit of a no-limits fallacy to assume that DM can simply matter manipulate objects regardless of durability.We’re also talking about Thanos, who has matter/reality control of his own and at a much higher level/control than DM (due to the gems).
Plus Thanos took on Dr Strange who has shown matter/reality manipulation of his own (being able to turn a black hole into butterflies for example) and yet could do nothing of the sort to Thanos/IG.
I clearly noted that for all of Thanos' toughness, IM was still able to cut him. Meaning he's not invulnerable, which is my point.
At no point did I argue that Thanos couldn't harm Manhattan. And it's not a matter of Thanos lacking power here, he's godlike with all the stones, his choices of using said power though are questionable at times. eg He should have been able to wipe the floor against the Titan Seven, but they almost beat him. If it wasn't for Quinn's emotional outburst, they would have.
It's going to come down to first shot with either of these guys and Manhanttan need only think, while Thanos has to activate his abilities via gesture.
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Lol, the leaps of logic that people are making for Manhattan are amazing, yet the snap is irrelevant. The mental gymnastics are hilarious. Thanos just erased half of all life in the universe from existence, but you start rubbing your balls because Manhattan can blow up regular people by looking at them.
Agreed. Manhattan was overrated from a weak universe.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Like I said, I feel that the snap is an irrelevant line of argument here as there are other avenues open to Thanos that I feel COULD work vs DM. Though, I agree that there is no 100% certainty to these:DM has shown that he is still bound by physical laws regardless of how much control he has on physical objects. If the laws of reality are changed (such as when reality is warped), he will also fall victim to it.
It was made clear by the movie that no matter how powerful DM was, his mind still had very human characteristics (and thus something Ozy can manipulate). A mind gem attack should work, similar to how Vision managed to lock Ultron’s mind to one body or when Loki used it to mind control people.
Finally, simply reversing time to return DM to his human self would also be a viable tactic IMO.
Of course not saying that this is how it will go down.
Oh I never claimed Thanos has no option to do anything to DH. He can as you have pointed out (though I find your mind stone logic a bit iffy). But DH also has various options how others have pointed out.
I was just comparing disintegrations on both sides. How each is just as plausible or implausible as the other.
Originally posted by Robtard
I clearly noted that for all of Thanos' toughness, IM was still able to cut him. Meaning he's not invulnerable, which is my point.At no point did I argue that Thanos couldn't harm Manhattan. And it's not a matter of Thanos lacking power here, he's godlike with all the stones, his choices of using said power though are questionable at times. eg He should have been able to wipe the floor against the Titan Seven, but they almost beat him. If it wasn't for Quinn's emotional outburst, they would have.
It's going to come down to first shot with either of these guys and Manhanttan need only think, while Thanos has to activate his abilities via gesture.
He also didnt use the Big Snap in direct combat against his opponent. So we also dont know how combat applicable that is. We dont even know if he can just snap away the likes of Thor or even Hulk. And a full Gauntlet shot was overpowered by Stormbreaker which ended up showing Thanos even with the full IG is still not physically invulnerable.
That said, he clearly has the variety of gems to deal with Manhattan. But Manhattan seems to have the advantage in:
1) Beating Thanos to the draw
2) Not being dependant on a weapon
Originally posted by Robtard
1. I clearly noted that for all of Thanos' toughness, IM was still able to cut him. Meaning he's not invulnerable, which is my point.2. At no point did I argue that Thanos couldn't harm Manhattan. And it's not a matter of Thanos lacking power here, he's godlike with all the stones, his choices of using said power though are questionable at times. eg He should have been able to wipe the floor against the Titan Seven, but they almost beat him.
2b. If it wasn't for Quinn's emotional outburst, they would have.
3. It's going to come down to first shot with either of these guys and Manhanttan need only think, while Thanos has to activate his abilities via gesture.
1. This version of IM was far more powerful than any version beforehand. And tank-busting power was already something the first version of IM was able to do. Thanos has also taken a LOT of hits prior and getting a tiny cut eventually is already way past the durability levels of the things DM was able to affect.
2. I never said you argued that Thanos couldn’t harm DM either. I meant that Thanos had the ability to defend against escoteric attacks as demonstrated with his battle vs Strange and that the level of control/power that Thanos has demonstrated would mean that he has the upper hand in a defensive power-vs-power battle.
2b. According to Strange, they wouldn’t have, though. Apparently, Thanos would find a way or something. Don’t ask me how (I don’t exactly agree with it), though, that’s just what the story said.
3. I dunno, I mean isn’t “thinking it” the same as activating the gems? Is there a lag time between thinking “zap” to thinking “activate gems to zap/defend”? Is there a speed showing between the two that shows how fast the other side is in combat vs the other? I would like to see showings tbh. This is why I haven’t decided yet actually as I DO find the merits of the quickdraw argument.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh I never claimed Thanos has no option to do anything to DH. He can as you have pointed out (though I find your mind stone logic a bit iffy). But DH also has various options how others have pointed out.I was just comparing disintegrations on both sides. How each is just as plausible or implausible as the other.
Why is it iffy? Ultron was a disembodied energy being able to transfer between recepticles for his mind or split his mind between bodies. If anything, it’s pretty damned near precisely what would beat DM.
The only question would be if Thanos would be unable to replicate this. As far as ability, I find it hard to believe that the gems would have less abilities in unison that they do as a group, so it finally boils down to whether or not Thanos would be able to think of it. IMO it’s not a hard concept to grasp once he realizes his opponent doesn’t really have a physical body.
Disintegration doesn’t work with DM.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Why is it iffy? Ultron was a disembodied energy being able to transfer between recepticles for his mind or split his mind between bodies. If anything, it’s pretty damned near precisely what would beat DM.The only question would be if Thanos would be unable to replicate this. As far as ability, I find it hard to believe that the gems would have less abilities in unison that they do as a group, so it finally boils down to whether or not Thanos would be able to think of it. IMO it’s not a hard concept to grasp once he realizes his opponent doesn’t really have a physical body.
Disintegration doesn’t work with DM.
Yeah Pretty sure that was a Vision thing. One AI hacking another. Lokis use of the mind stone for instance was stopped by Tonys metal plate.
Unless youre talking about Wanda? But I dont recall her attacking Vision or Ultrons mind, and I know she got her powers from the stone, but she doesnt actually use a stone, so still different.
The part I specifically found Iffy however was how you talked about DMs mind being vulnerable due to him not being all knowing.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah Pretty sure that was a Vision thing. One AI hacking another. Lokis use of the mind stone for instance was stopped by Tonys metal plate.Unless youre talking about Wanda? But I dont recall her attacking Vision or Ultrons mind, and I know she got her powers from the stone, but she doesnt actually use a stone, so still different.
The part I specifically found Iffy however was how you talked about DMs mind being vulnerable due to him not being all knowing.
Except the mind gem was glowing when he did so. W/c IMO indicated that the mind stone was in use. Even the color of the energy locking Ultron in was yellow (w/c also seemed to imply that it had something to do with the mindstone). If Jarvis had the ability to hack Ultron to such an extent without the mind stone, Ultron wouldn’t have gotten anywhere that far to begin with.
I’m saying that with the mind stone combined with the other stones amping it up and opening up new avenues of access/attack, an amped mind gem (perhaps mind gem plus reality plus power) attack similar to what Vision did to Ultron (locking his consciousness in) is more than possible.
I think you’re misinterpreting what I said. What I mean when I said he was “vulnerable” was because DM seemed to still be limited by physical rules w/c are still cogitable by science and human understanding (that is why Ozy was able to figure out that tachyons would block his vision). This actually makes him vulnerable to the reality stone (as it has the ability to rewrite physical rules) not the mind stone.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Wanda has damaged wildly more durable objects than DM has
Wanda damanges things externally, DM can remove the intrinsic fields thus disinitigratig any object or or mass. He also has telekinetic power at the sun atomic level to change, manipulate elements. It wouldn’t be any harder for him to turn gold to glass as it would be to turn thanos into gold.
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Lol, the leaps of logic that people are making for Manhattan are amazing, yet the snap is irrelevant. The mental gymnastics are hilarious. Thanos just erased half of all life in the universe from existence, but you start rubbing your balls because Manhattan can blow up regular people by looking at them.
But Thor almost killed Thanos. You don't need to be anywhere near universal to kill him.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Except the mind gem was glowing when he did so. W/c IMO indicated that the mind stone was in use. Even the color of the energy locking Ultron in was yellow (w/c also seemed to imply that it had something to do with the mindstone). If Jarvis had the ability to hack Ultron to such an extent without the mind stone, Ultron wouldn’t have gotten anywhere that far to begin with.I’m saying that with the mind stone combined with the other stones amping it up and opening up new avenues of access/attack, an amped mind gem (perhaps mind gem plus reality plus power) attack similar to what Vision did to Ultron (locking his consciousness in) is more than possible.
I think you’re misinterpreting what I said. What I mean when I said he was “vulnerable” was because DM seemed to still be limited by physical rules w/c are still cogitable by science and human understanding (that is why Ozy was able to figure out that tachyons would block his vision). This actually makes him vulnerable to the reality stone (as it has the ability to rewrite physical rules) not the mind stone.
Again though, that was One AI hacking another, even if it was with the aid of the mindstone.
That said, even then, for Vision to hack Ultron he had to physically touch him. Which is especially relevant given it seems Loki also needed to physically touch people to control their minds, as seen when he couldnt do it to Tony. Not that Ultron was defeated via a mind attack anyway. That just stopped him escaping his Ultron bodies.
Thats true regarding the reality stone, but it still comes back to the no limits fallacy. As for combining the stones, well we know Stormbreaker overpowered a full blast from all the stones. So clearly there are limits in the gauntlets use with on the spot combat.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Again though, that was One AI hacking another, even if it was with the aid of the mindstone.That said, even then, for Vision to hack Ultron he had to physically touch him. Which is especially relevant given it seems Loki also needed to physically touch people to control their minds, as seen when he couldnt do it to Tony. Not that Ultron was defeated via a mind attack anyway. That just stopped him escaping his Ultron bodies.
Thats true regarding the reality stone, but it still comes back to the no limits fallacy. As for combining the stones, well we know Stormbreaker overpowered a full blast from all the stones. So clearly there are limits in the gauntlets use with on the spot combat.
DM is not an AI and does not need to be hacked. My point was that the Mind stone is fully capable of affecting disembodied consciousness similar to DM (like Ultron). And you’re right, he won’t defeat him by locking him in, it’s just one avenue he could affect DM in. Another is mind control (w/c would indeed be a win).
As for physical contact, I did say that this is simply an approach (meaning a method Thanos can use to win). Executing it would depend on how the battle would go. Sadly, we do not know how the mind gem works in unison with the others (the space stone for example). However, Thanos can use the Space stone to shorten the range between them and perhaps even do a touch attack eventually.
How is it a no limits fallacy? We see what the reality gem can do, how it can affect huge areas (such as in Knowhere). And how absolutely the rules can be broken (he can turn a living being into pieces of fully conscious flat paper coils or chop them up into pieces without killing or even hurting them). It is well beyond anything that DM has shown on screen, thus “feat-wise” in both power and fine control, Thanos has got DM beat by miles.
For as long as Thanos controls reality, DM (who functions within the rules of reality) will not be able to use his powers the way he wants to as Thanos can basically rewrite these rules himself. It’s like being a grandmaster in chess but having the rules of chess suddenly changed to gibberish.
If it ever becomes a fight, by “feats” and showings, Thanos will win.
The merit of the pro-DM position lies in the quickdraw argument. And it is the main reason that I’m still not decided.
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Oh, I'm sorry, does Manhattan have a magic axe forged with the fire of a star, meant to be wielded by the king of a race of gods? No? Didn't think so.
Pretty sure the argument is that durability is irrelevant against Manhattan's powers. I can't say if that's true for the film, but it's certainly the case in the comic.