What Jordan Peterson says

Originally posted by Scribble
I recognise all of the problems of the right, and the dangers they pose. I live in the UK, where an authoritarian Right-Wing government has torn apart our entire infrastructure only to line their own (already extremely full) pockets. We have EDL protests that act under the guise of patriotism but clearly represent fairly wide-spread racist views, and help to propagate such views in the public eye. The amount of anti-immigrant fake news that I see even just on Facebook is astounding and worrying (e.g., a video of football hooligans rioting being posted under the banner of "MUSLIMS RIOT BECAUSE STREET WON'T GO HALAL" or some other gibberish). I get it.

I've been on the 'left' my entire life (up until recently, although I still wouldn't actually label myself left, right, or centrist in any concrete terms) and generally agree with a lot of the stuff you just said (although some of it is ideological horseshit, sorry), but you seem to be coming from a position where you're cramming as many words as you can into my mouth to misrepresent my views, so as to be able to throw this heap of information at me as if you know specifically who I am and what I believe, and as if this is somehow meant to blow my mind. Nothing you said was new to me, and most of it is self-evident.

You're clearly intelligent and somewhat self-aware, so I don't want to diss you, but most of this post is just an ideology-fuelled history of the past three to five years, so forgive me for not tackling it point-by-point or issue-by-issue.

Great summary that basically calls me an ideologue (maybe you need to pull away from Peterson for a while so you don't end up trying to shoehorn some version of his phraseology into places they don't belong) and bonus points for ALMOST realizing that the earliest thing I mentioned was American educational institutes in the 1960s.

By almost, I mean "swing and a miss." Easy to confuse the two! Nah, jk.

By the way, one thing? Before you depart?

You said this here:

I've been on the 'left' my entire life (up until recently, although I still wouldn't actually label myself left, right, or centrist in any concrete terms)

But literally two fucking days ago, you said this:

Originally posted by Scribble
Although I would not consider myself 'right-wing' (I'm still firmly a centrist in practice, leaning slightly left or slightly right depending on the specific issue)

So you wouldn't label yourself right, left, or (most importantly) centrist but, TWO GODDAMN DAYS AGO, you were "firmly a centrist in practice?"

I can easily say that the Right and Centre are the ones genuinely discussing issues at the moment, whilst the Left screeches into a mirror vacuum of itself.

OMFG please teach me, enlightened non-firm centrist who firmly labelled themselves a centrist two days ago in their own words who won't engage in a discussion with me yet the left isn't "genuinely discussing issues" and the right/centrist/they're-comtemporarily-almost-the-exact-same-fucking-thing is "genuinely discussing issues."

That's the great thing about not being entranced by ideology

You are but you're just not aware that you are.

Come on with this shit, Scribble. I think you have some things you need to deeply consider.

Yeah, I regret saying that I'm 'firmly a centrist in practice' and I regretted it as soon as I posted it; I said it purely to offer perspective on my position, and knew it was an inaccurate and could be misconstrued. That was a mistake, and I'll readily admit that. What I meant by 'centrist in practice' was that I don't readily steer too left or too right on issues, it was a description of how I act, as opposed to me actually labeling myself.

Also, you are an ideologue, as are many people here. Your first post had a direct thru-line of ideology that took it from its start to its end.

edit: Please don't refer to me by username (or real name for that matter). You don't know me, and you were quoting me, so I knew who you were talking to anyway.

Originally posted by Scribble
Yeah, I regret saying that I'm 'firmly a centrist in practice' and I regretted it as soon as I posted it; I said it purely to offer perspective on my position, and knew it was an inaccurate and could be misconstrued. That was a mistake, and I'll readily admit that. What I meant by 'centrist in practice' was that I don't readily steer too left or too right on issues, it was a description of how I act, as opposed to me actually labeling myself.

Thankfully, it wasn't misconstrued, since you straight up said you were but weren't. Also, saying you're firmly something and then saying you are not firmly something is "offering perspective" on your position? In what world besides the one you live in does doing that not damage your position?

Yeah, most centrists go on about how "balanced" and in the middle they are. Yet, you'll inaccurately proclaim that the left is the REAL danger and consistently softball or downplay the tremendously negative real-world influences of modern right-wing ideology. This delusion is exactly why you'd describe someone like Rubin or Shapiro as moderates.

Also, you are an ideologue, as are many people here. Your first post had a direct thru-line of ideology that took it from its start to its end.

So we're doubling down on parroting JP's phraseology and incorrectly applying it? Gotcha.

So, I appreciate the vague explanation telling me how I am an ideologue, despite me explicitly explaining how I wasn't and have disdain for extreme partisan affiliation. You can read my post again, if you'd like. It isn't going anywhere. An ideologue is someone who wantonly and blindly follows a particular ideology and/or party. Where have I demonstrated that I'm an ideologue? Is it because I am acknowledging that the right is more dangerous than the left and also invites less discourse? The right likes to re-frame, rebrand, and beat-bush every issue. It's a goddamn clown car filled with weasel-wording, dogwhistling, and often? Straight up gaslighting, especially in the case of Trump and his plucky band of brown nosers that he sometimes likes to call an "administration."

Every centrist I've come across or observed fails to address this glaring aspect of the right properly because they're so obsessed with fence-sitting, a really shitty lawn on one side is allowed to garner a metric fuck-ton of weeds that choke the goddamn life out of all surrounding plants but you think you have the high ground because you're smiling whilst the garden dies.

Lovely job. You're so unenchanted from ideology. Us plebs have much to learn, Middle Yoda.

edit: Please don't refer to me by username (or real name for that matter). You don't know me, and you were quoting me, so I knew who you were talking to anyway.

Then tell me what you'd like me to refer to you as, besides your username on this website. We can roll with "centrist but not a centrist" or a version with a little more brevity, if you'd like. Your call.

Look, you clearly know exactly who I am, and all of my beliefs both personal and political, and you're getting increasingly hostile towards me with each post. You don't seem like somebody fun to debate with, and I primarily debate for fun, so I'm not really up for discussing anything further with you, sorry – especially not when you open up with Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States and expect me to counter you point-for-point.

I do not believe myself to be enlightened. I'm just as lost as everyone else. I'm just figuring out a mode of working that suits me, one that stops me from terminating my own life and little else beyond that. I have no vast plans to change the world and no desire to force my views on anyone.

My final point was that there was no need to say my name at the end of that post as if it meant anything. It added nothing other than to make you seem like you know me, which you don't.

I do? I don't know who the hell you are. This is the first time I've talked to you, unless you're a sock. PM me if I know you?

Yeah, no, I don't have fun with these discussions. Why would I? I have fun arguing, like, what video game or movie character would beat another or some other shit. This is real-life shit that affects actual people. Nice book name drop. Is that actually it? I mean, you didn't even have to address everything. You can take or leave whatever you'd like but it's inadequate that you'd discuss nothing, especially considering you've made some strong claims about political ideology and the like. That's what concerns me.

Yeah, I can be hostile toward people like you. You unwittingly contribute and allow shit people to get away with all sorts of draconian garbage because of sheer ignorance. It's not something I take with a grain of salt, typically. You're sitting here telling me the left is destroying discourse and only the right/center can have it but that's totally untrue and you're unwilling to engage yourself. About anything of import. That irks the living hell out of me, yeah. I can agree with that.

To digress, the name thingy...

Using a name doesn't necessarily mean you know someone. It's your username on a forum so I figured you didn't mind people using it. Again, would you prefer a replacement? I brought up video games earlier. You play Skyrim? I could give you a Khajiit name like, "Watches-The-Garden-Die."

Still your call, really.

Also, why are you an ideologue? Let's see:

Because you haven't approached me on any common ground, or tried to find any; this is a battleground, not a conversation. You see me as a collection of political beliefs, as opposed to a person. You believe you know who I am purely through analysis of these supposed beliefs, as if we've ever even spoken before. You prize personal attacks and attempts to undermine over any sense of respect within a debate. You would rather 'defeat your enemy' rather than even bother attempting to understand them.

You are an ideologue.

From what I can tell, you're basically just Verbose Leftist Flyattractor.

Edit: When I said "you clearly know exactly who I am, and all of my beliefs both personal and political", that was irony. You just act like you do. I distrust people who attempt to use my name as some kind of bargaining chip.

Okay, I have to leave for a bit to do shopping, etc. but I am willing to discuss actual issues with you when I return, as long as you're willing to discuss things rationally and without assuming my overall positions on things from a select few posts.

If you want to suggest a couple of topics to begin with, and give your perspective on them, when I return I'll posit my beliefs on them, and perhaps from there we can have a cordial discussion that is actually worth having.

Originally posted by Scribble
Okay, I have to leave for a bit to do shopping, etc. but I am willing to discuss actual issues with you when I return, as long as you're willing to discuss things rationally and without assuming my overall positions on things from a select few posts.

If you want to suggest a couple of topics to begin with, and give your perspective on them, when I return I'll posit my beliefs on them, and perhaps from there we can have a cordial discussion that is actually worth having.

Lol this person is going ballistic on me too.

Also kinda weird, I usually don't check Cracked often. Last few days I have looked at it. Today I see this:

How Jordan Peterson Repackages Alt-Right Ideas As Self-Help

lol

Originally posted by Scribble
Also, why are you an ideologue? Let's see:

Because you haven't approached me on any common ground, or tried to find any; this is a battleground, not a conversation. You see me as a collection of political beliefs, as opposed to a person. You believe you know who I am purely through analysis of these supposed beliefs, as if we've ever even spoken before. You prize personal attacks and attempts to undermine over any sense of respect within a debate. You would rather 'defeat your enemy' rather than even bother attempting to understand them.

You are an ideologue.

From what I can tell, you're basically just Verbose Leftist Flyattractor.

Edit: When I said "you clearly know exactly who I am, and all of my beliefs both personal and political", that was irony. You just act like you do. I distrust people who attempt to use my name as some kind of bargaining chip.

Again, you don't want to address a goddamn thing.

"You're an ideologue."
"I haven't said anything to suggest this. How am I an ideologue?"
"You're an ideologue."

Nice!

We'll try again, since you've still literally addressed nothing from that big post I made.

How do I believe I "know who you are?" You expressed ideologies and positions that are worthy of criticism to me. Like, do I need to know what city you were born in, your favorite sports team when you were twelve, or what your favorite color is to dismiss these ideas as awful or how you've espoused them? I didn't separate shit just because I don't care about these facets of who you are so, no, I haven't separated the "person" from their "political beliefs." By the way, politics are a portion of almost every facet of an individual's life, whether they'd care to acknowledge that or not. So, yeah, you are kind of what political positions you align with so the person trying to separate that is... me?

Like, you can unironically tell me that I'm trying to figure out who you are because I hate your political positions, you can tell that I "believe I know who you are" through these beliefs. Why, because I said "you're the type of person..." or something? That throw you off? It shouldn't have because it was followed up by any relevant perspective you've shared, particularly regarding politics.

Your positions are relatively cookie-cutter and come off as surface-level enough to indicate you haven't fairly or deeply explored these issues. Why would I respect someone who is trying to tell me all of the reasonable discourse is shared among the right and the center when the opposite is true? Again, where are the leftist equivalents of Fox? InfoWars? Breitbart? The Daily Caller? The Daily Wire? Go back to that larger post I made. It's all there. I don't wanna play the broken record game, kay?

Also, please explain how I tried to use your name as a bargaining chip. "You think you know me because you responded to statements I've made and that's wrong but here's what you've been doing with no explanation."

Good distraction from actually having to talk about a damn thing. Kudos.

Lol...

eat

Ah yes, now we're just "trolling" or "memeing" and enjoying the show, right, Surtur?

Yet you want to keep your credibility or how you're perceived.

Damn! Right on!

What's happening now is me enjoying you meltdown on various topics. And the people desperately trying to clean up after you lol.

You have to be incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest in order to desperately stay afloat in conversations you take part in. If I'm having a meltdown, you melted ages ago.

I'm calling you grilled cheese now.

You're grilled cheese.

Originally posted by The Lost
You have to be incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest in order to desperately stay afloat in conversations you take part in. If I'm having a meltdown, you melted ages ago.

I'm calling you grilled cheese now.

You're grilled cheese.

Just proving my point really. You're behaving unhinged across multiple topics lol.

Originally posted by The Lost
Like, some of the most watched conservative media is Fox News, Breitbart, the Daily Caller, The Daily Wire, fucking InfoWars. Fucking InfoWars! We are talking about a growing political ideology that supports ethnostates, considers race realism scientifically valid,

Originally posted by The Lost
thinks there's two genders

Originally posted by Emperordmb
LMFAO Fox News and the Daily Wire are not alt-right, they are not ethnostate proponents, what the **** are you talking about?

OH THE ABSOLUTE HORROR!!! What a disturbing and hateful position! My oh my the right wing has truly become radical for saying there are only two genders! I don't know how anyone who holds that insane radical stance sleeps at night. Clearly this makes the right-wing super dangerous.

This is why I think this person is unhinged lol. Just read all of his/hers rants.

Originally posted by Surtur
This is why I think this person is unhinged lol. Just read all of his/hers rants.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Are you implying there's only two genders? You disgust me. You should be ostracized from society for holding such a hateful bigoted extremist stance. You my friend are the one posing the real threat to the west.

I admit I did a bad thing. I'm gonna go dip my face in acid as punishment.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
LMFAO Fox News and the Daily Wire are not alt-right, they are not ethnostate proponents, what the **** are you talking about?

How do you fucking UNDERLINE what I said, quote it, and then say, "They are not alt-right!" I said they were CONVERSATIVE media outlets. Yes, some of them have advocated for white ethnostates and can be sentimental toward alt-right views, as conversatives are typically more susceptible to supporting alt-right views.

This isn't hard, mang.

OH THE ABSOLUTE HORROR!!! What a disturbing and hateful position! My oh my the right wing has truly become radical for saying there are only two genders! I don't know how anyone who holds that insane radical stance sleeps at night. Clearly this makes the right-wing super dangerous.

Of course it's dangerous. Most people believe it's true and scientific consensus disagrees. No discussion to really be had, unless you're talking about animal research? Are you qualified to disagree? If not, I don't care what you have to say about it.