Snoke vs sidious

Started by SIDIOUS 6627 pages
SIDIOUS 66 Senior Member
Originally posted by Zentrex
hm...
So you're saying that Sidious did indeed cloud the mind of all jedi at their peak? Well...you've convinced me. Sidious' mind-clouding feat it superior to Snoke's force bridge.

The official website says Sidious used the power of the dark side to cloud the force, meaning it was something he was actively doing and was directly controlling, not something happening involuntary. Yes, it's a far greater feat. All of Sidious's feats are far greater than Snoke's. Palpatine's overall importance to the SW saga is greater than Snoke's. Thematically it makes sense that Sidious is superior. Snoke also seems to think it takes a Vader level force user to defeat Luke based on the context of his dialogue in the movie, and according to Snoke, Vader was unable to defeat Luke due to a moment of weakness, his feelings toward Luke, pull to the light (TFA novelization). So it seems Snoke acknowledges Vader as his superior since he acknowledges that he himself lacks the power to defeat Luke (Visual Dictionary)

Yes, Snoke is powerful, but his best feat in terms of combat is ragdolling Rey around. And while Rey has greater potential than most, she is still a beginner and is barely learning how to tap into her power, hence her immense struggle in engaging with four regular human skilled guards. Rey even mused that keeping up with them was too much for her limited training. It should be no surprise that she is no match for a master force user. Hell, even Ventress can blitz through nightbrother warriors (if we take the words of Qui Gon and young Anakin seriously in regards to pod racing, regular humans are far inferior to most species in terms of physicality, especially reflex and speed; obviously much inferior to zabrak nightbrothers), and we see how easily Dooku can dispose of her, which is more impressive than Snoke slinging Rey around, especially since Ventress is a match for most jedi council members, whom are all master force users, something Rey isn't even close to at this point.

Originally posted by Zentrex
He called Palpatine to him. Why would he do that if he was afraid? I know Fry said that he thought someone in Snoke's situation would try and stay away from Palpatine, but Wendig seems to think Snoke knew exactly what he was doing.

The novelization has a great deal of dialogue from Snoke's perspective, a lot of which is about Sidious and why he was obsessed with the unknown regions, and according to Snoke it was to seek out ancient knowledge. Not once did Snoke say "oh yeah, and I was reaching out to him." So, yeah, very unlikely that it was because Snoke was calling him there, unless Snoke went senile and just forgot.

Also, Jason Fry, who worked closely with Rian Johnson and the story board while writing the novel, not only said it would be unwise for Snoke to attract the attention of Darth Sidious, he also said Snoke knew of his existence because Sidious was the most powerful being in the galaxy. Of course you could argue that he was referring to political power, but then again the whole galaxy knew Palpatine had the most political power, but still had no clue of the existence of Darth Sidious. So it makes more sense that Fry would be referring to Darth Sidious's force power as the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith.

ALLLsoooo, Luke schooled the hell out of Rey in their stick fight.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

👆

Most of that has already been mentioned to Zentrex... Yet here were [still] are. ermm

Zentrex Hi!

he still needed training by Snoke

Why do you think Knights no longer need training? Not as apprentices, but they can defenitely grow more powerful through teaching.
Did he pass anything like the trials?

The jedi trials aren't about power, they're about how good of a jedi you are. And in canon, the trials consist of categories like teamwork, isolation, fear, anger, betrayal, focus, instinct, forgiveness, and protection, instead of "trial of the flesh" etc. Also, as far as toughness goes, Kylo did, at the end of the force awakens, prove that he can withstand tremendous strain and pain.
you have to have a certain level of maturity to be a knight

to be a jedi knight. He's the same power level, that's all I've ever claimed.
I’ve done so many times, you must be too stupid to see it.

All this space you're taking up telling me how you gave evidence could be used to actually give me evidence (or repeat it, since I was too stupid to catch it the first time).
Go ahead but what evidence do you have to support it, he lost twice and I gave you evidence lol.

I have the projection feat as evidence. And you can't use "he lost twice" as evidence when I've already said I don't think those were fair fights. Or fights at all, really.
In your previous statement

If you're referring to me saying that Luke tried to hide after he kicked Vader down the steps, then yeah, I admit he hid. AFTER owning Vader. He's still equally powerful.
Again there’s nothing really to say he was as strong as Vader on screen or in the books, if there is show it, I’ll wait.

I showed you that time he shook a star destroyer with a single force push, right? And that was long before RotJ.
Who lost to the praetorians ? I’m not saying the praetorians were weak if I did let me correct myself. But they did lose to newbs in the end.

So why bring them up?
No no, who did Ventress or Dooku struggle with who was not a force user, tell me.

I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. I don't think they did. But then that's not really relevant because perhaps they never faced anyone who was as ferocious as the Preatorians, and thus never had themselves under as much pressure as Kylo and Rey would have been under.
I don’t have to convince you of anything

Then why do you keep replying to me?
the evidence I’d there, if you’re to stupid to understand how can I convince you?

Ditto, my friend. Ditto.
How is Luke as strong as Yoda, tell me. Explain.

Fans across the board wanted Luke to be that powerful, so there's no chance that the creators would not follow through with that. And as I said, both Abrams and Johnson had plans to have Luke doing crazy feats which were later taken away, because 1. they didn't suit his defeated self for most of the film, and 2. because they didn't want the Force to be too powerful. Let me explain that second one. The reason Luke didn't pull Star Destroyers out of the sky wasn't because he was too weak, it was because the force itself can't achieve something that powerful. If it could have, Luke would have. He's clearly meant to be powerful.

Then there's the projection feat, and the star destroyer feat, and defeating Darth Vader, and the whole "going around the galaxy exploring and learning all there was to know about the force, so as to gain more knowledge than any jedi had for thousands of years" thing.

Zentrex Hi!

To Sidious 66, yes, as Galan said, all of that has been mentioned before. And I've said I'll wait till more information is out. Regardless, I agree with most of what you said. Besides the quote by Fry about Sidious being the most powerful, I firmly believe he was referring to political power. Which is the kind that makes you famous.

Originally posted by Galan007
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Most of that has already been mentioned to Zentrex... Yet here were [still] are. ermm


Huh? What do you mean we're still here? I'm arguing with DarthPlagueis12 about very different things, if you care to read the the argument.
ALLLsoooo, Luke schooled the hell out of Rey in their stick fight

If that was directed towards me, then yes, that's the stance I've been defending against DarthPlagueis12

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Snoke also seems to think it takes a Vader level force user to defeat Luke based on the context of his dialogue in the movie,

Quote please.

DarthPlaguis12 Restricted

again, what did he do to achieve knighthood ?

The trials are about seeing if you’re ready to be a knight, again did he pass anything akin to the trials? If so what?

No, it’s not always about power, you yourself admitted that Anakin was denied the level of master because he was too arrogant, mace also thought he went too close to the dark side even though he was a great swordsman and equal to master Kenobi. Thus there’s more to being a knight and master then just power, the trials seem to test to see if a Jedi possesses such attributes. Again kylo faced nothing like that.

So you’re saying I gave you zero evidence lol. No one gave you evidence even though I’m not the only one who disagrees with you 😂😂

Fair in what way, I don’t recall duels having rules. If you want to be honest Luke had the unfair advantage, he attacked a young kid in his bed, he then fought his untrained student. I say Luke had the advantage and lost anyway. The projection was a weak feat n he died from it, very sad.

what has Luke EVER done that has made him equal in power to his father, if he owned Vader why hide lol.

Give me a reference

Do I need your permission on who I can bring up? Why’d you bring up how powerful Luke was suppose to be, it’s irrelevent.

So now you admit you’re just trolling, what a tool. Vader faced imperial knights and squads of rebels, dooku faced multiple clone troopers, three knight sisters, Ventress and savage oppress, he faced Obi wan n Anakin more then once

Cause I enjoy exposing you as a troll

Again what evidence have you presented?

Again, tell me how he’s as strong as Yoda, give me some feats? Vader fear don’t count, told you why, he shook a star destroyer, ok so? Yoda fought three Jedi masters and they couldn’t touch him, he fought off count dooku n overcame his force powers, he stalemated the most powerful dark sider ever in Sidious in force skill, he was a better swordsman then him.

DarthPlaguis12 Restricted

Luke was knocked on his ass, end of story, he schooled no one

Zentrex Hi!

You seem to be confused as to my claim. I'm not claiming that Kylo is a full fledged Jedi knight. I'm saying that he's just as powerful as one.

did he pass anything akin to the trials?

The end of TFA
So you’re saying I gave you zero evidence lol

I'm saying you've not given me any reason to believe (none that I can remember, anyway) that Luke's "fights" with Rey and Kylo were actual fights.
Oh, and in all the cases you brough up on this thread, you indeed are the only one who disagrees with me.
Fair in what way

I mean that niether of the participants were truly trying to hurt or fight each other. In his argument with Kylo, the only external conflict was him holding up his lightsaber, and Kylo bringing the roof crashing down. The majority of the conflict in that scene was internal, and Luke being trumped was heavily circumstancial.
With Rey, Rey was not trying to hurt him, and he was not trying to hurt her. Neither had any reason to waste their energies fighting, and once again, the main conflict was internal, so an external solution wouldn't work. It would have to be resolved internally, by way of Luke either telling her what she wants to know, or convincing her that she doesn't want to know it.
The projection was a weak

Let's think of it this way: Rey, who I believe to be knight level and you believe to be, what youngling level? Would literally die if she tried to hold a ten second conversation with one person from half a galaxy away. Luke held a connection with hundreds of people for ten minutes from that same distance. And I'm pretty sure he could've lived if he'd wanted to, but why would he?
if he owned Vader why hide

He said "I will not fight you father" and only hides after realizing that he's giving into the dark side.
Give me a reference

Why’d you bring up how powerful Luke was suppose to be, it’s irrelevent

I'll admit, it is kind of irrelevant, but back then I was trying to argue that since Snoke is more powerful than Luke, he's more powerful than the emperor. But yeah, I don't quite stand by that anymore.
But I was just wondering why you brought up the Preatorian guards if they don't actually add anything to your argument.
So now you admit you’re just trolling

1. You're putting words in my mouth, 2. but you still keep responding to me.
Vader faced...Dooku faced...

Yes, well, Vader and Dooku are far, far more powerful than jedi knights, who I claim Kylo and Rey are equal to. Ventress is a better example.
Cause I enjoy exposing you as a troll

I'm glad I'm not being a nussiance.
Again what evidence have you presented?

I feel like a broken record, but, uh...shook a star destroyer, defeated darth vader, searched the galaxy and the unknown regions for jedi and other force-based teaching.
give me some feats

I don't know why shaking that star destroyer is so "okay, so?" for you, because Vader has never done anything close to that in canon. I guess we disagree that Luke fair and square beat Vader, but tell me why Vader wouldn't use the force to at least suspend/ragdoll Luke when about to be killed by him?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Luke was knocked on his ass, end of story, he schooled no one
He did school her though...
Furious, she swung her staff at him again--but Luke reached out, the motion a blur, and a length of lightning rod flew off the roof of one of the huts. Before Rey could blink he had intercepted the strike of her staff, the impact sending a jolt up her forearms, and knocked her backward.

Rey sprang back at him, her staff and his improvised weapon spinning and colliding as the rain poured down. She pressed the attack. The staff had never felt more comfortable in her hands, so much like a part of her. Her confidence grew and she smiled wolfishly as she saw the surprise on his face.

But it was a fleeting thing. Quicker than she could follow, he parried her thrust and continued the motion, flipping the staff out of her hands to clatter on the stones, leaving her defenseless.

-TLJ

SIDIOUS 66 Senior Member
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Quote please.

There's no direct quote, that's why I used the word "seems."

Every time Snoke brings up Kylo Ren's potential, he refers to Vader, and what he believes Vader would be capable of. He says that Kylo wouldn't succeed in snuffing out hope (Luke) because he's no Vader.

Originally posted by Zentrex
To Sidious 66, yes, as Galan said, all of that has been mentioned before. And I've said I'll wait till more information is out. Regardless, I agree with most of what you said. Besides the quote by Fry about Sidious being the most powerful, I firmly believe he was referring to political power. Which is the kind that makes you famous.

You might be right, although hardly anyone knew of his identity as Darth Sidious based on his political power. Fry was talking about his existence as a sith lord (IIRC the quote correctly), since, duh, who didn't know of the existence of Emperor Palpatine?

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Luke was knocked on his ass, end of story, he schooled no one

Luke was only knocked on his ass when he wasn't expecting it.

Mid-duel, he knocks Rey upside her head, casually parries all her strikes and then effortlessly rips her staff from her, disarming her. Rey never even touched him. Yes he schooled her ass.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ The Immortal Emperor

Welcome back.

DarthPlaguis12 Restricted

He was the one left in his ass though with a deadly weapon in his face though. So no I don’t see he schooled her.

SIDIOUS 66 Senior Member
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Welcome back.

Thanks.

How's life treating you, Skillz?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You might be right, although hardly anyone knew of his identity as Darth Sidious based on his political power. Fry was talking about his existence as a sith lord (IIRC the quote correctly), since, duh, who didn't know of the existence of Emperor Palpatine?
I do not believe Fry was referencing political power either, as the question he answered specifically pertained to "dark side users" and "Darth Sidious"...
This book confirms that Snoke is not the only dark-side user older than Palpatine, but would it be a correct interpretation, after reading this novel, that Snoke had some relationship with the erstwhile Darth Sidious?

Jason Fry: I don't know. Snoke certainly had to know of Sidious's existence --he was the most powerful being in the galaxy, after all-- but exploring their relationship beyond that was something we decided was best left for other storytellers to tackle. If I were Snoke, though, I would have been very careful about attracting Sidious's attention. To borrow a line from another beloved franchise, dark lords don't generally share power.

-Source

victreebelvictr Flowey's Only Friend

Luke can beat both Rey and kylo, he was just surprised. End of story.

Zentrex Hi!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There's no direct quote, that's why I used the word "seems."

Every time Snoke brings up Kylo Ren's potential, he refers to Vader, and what he believes Vader would be capable of. He says that Kylo wouldn't succeed in snuffing out hope (Luke) because he's no Vader.


Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I don't recall him once mentioning Vader. If he did, I think it'd be because Kylo worships (worshipped ) Vader so much.
You might be right, although hardly anyone knew of his identity as Darth Sidious based on his political power. Fry was talking about his existence as a sith lord (IIRC the quote correctly), since, duh, who didn't know of the existence of Emperor Palpatine?

The funny thing is that that's the main reason I think he's referring to political power. He said "[Snoke] certainly he had to know of [palpatine's] existence," but it wouldn't necessarily be all that obvious if it was about his secret identity.
Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Luke can beat both Rey and kylo, he was just surprised. End of story.

👆

Zentrex Hi!

Originally posted by Galan007
I do not believe Fry was referencing political power either, as the question he answered specifically pertained to "dark side users" and "Darth Sidious"...

You could be correct here, but in my mind, political power is the kind that makes you famous, and the kind that can be "shared," so to me it wouldn't make sense for him to be talking about power in the force, even though he is talking about them as two darksiders.
Although it's obvious he knew about Palpatine's sith-ness, the TFA novelization talks about how he knew what happened on the death star II. Wonder what else he knew. And is it just me, or did Alan Dean Foster and Jason Fry not talk at ALL?

DarthPlaguis12 Restricted

It would make sense Snoke meant Sidious force power as that how he would have sensed him from the uncharted regions.

snoke123 Senior Member

sidious hits snoke.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Zentrex
You could be correct here, but in my mind, political power is the kind that makes you famous, and the kind that can be "shared," so to me it wouldn't make sense for him to be talking about power in the force, even though he is talking about them as two darksiders.
Although it's obvious he knew about Palpatine's sith-ness, the TFA novelization talks about how he knew what happened on the death star II. Wonder what else he knew. And is it just me, or did Alan Dean Foster and Jason Fry not talk at ALL?
As mentioned, the question/answer was centered around Palpatine's standing as a "dark side user/dark Lord", so there'd be no logical reason for Fry to be inextricably referencing his political power or whathaveyou(only a select few in the entire galaxy even knew of Palpatine's Sith alter ego, remember.) That said, I took it as Fry essentially saying: "Sidious would have viewed Snoke as a potential rival, then hunted him down and killed him... So it's a good thing Snoke didn't attract his attention."

And with all the emphasis Snoke himself placed on Kylo's power being inferior to Vader's, I fully believe that is also what Fry was referencing when he compared Snoke and Sidious there. /shrug