Snoke vs sidious

Originally posted by Galan007
So your stance is essentially: "Snoke may have been contacting Sheev from the Unknown Regions(which still ISN'T proven, btw), therefore his force-lightning must be superior!!!!"
Do I really have to explain why that 'logic' is horribly fallacious..?

Let's look at it this way: You are the most powerful force user in the galaxy. You're sitting in your throne one day and all of a sudden you get a vision about the unknown regions of the galaxy. You don't know where they're from. You don't know who's sending them to you. But you know that they are a pathway to knowledge and power which you believe to be the very source of your power. You want to find out more about them. When you tell Vader about them, he thinks that you are going crazy. You also couldn't share these visions with Vader.

I imagine if it was anyone else sending these visions to Sidious, he could track them, resist them, understand them, and potentially let others understand them. But he can't with Snoke.

Except statements made by Lucas himself(that have not been directly contradicted by Disney canon) aren't just 'opinion'. They're canon fact.

Lucas said that any author would be reluctant to make a villain more powerful than Sidious. This is not in-universe fact. This is a suggestion, an opinion. Disney is clearly not interested in this opinion.

The only in-universe fact Lucas made about Sidious' power is that Sidious is the most powerful sith to ever live. Snoke is not a sith.

Originally posted by Zentrex

Let's look at it this way: You are the most powerful force user in the galaxy. You're sitting in your throne one day and all of a sudden you get a vision about the unknown regions of the galaxy. You don't know where they're from. You don't know who's sending them to you. But you know that they are a pathway to knowledge and power which you believe to be the very source of your power. You want to find out more about them. When you tell Vader about them, he thinks that you are going crazy. You also couldn't share these visions with Vader.

I imagine if it was anyone else sending these visions to Sidious, he could track them, resist them, understand them, and potentially let others understand them. But he can't with Snoke.

Originally posted by Zentrex

Let's look at it this way: You are the most powerful force user in the galaxy. You're sitting in your throne one day and all of a sudden you get a vision about the unknown regions of the galaxy. You don't know where they're from. You don't know who's sending them to you. But you know that they are a pathway to knowledge and power which you believe to be the very source of your power. You want to find out more about them. When you tell Vader about them, he thinks that you are going crazy. You also couldn't share these visions with Vader.

I imagine if it was anyone else sending these visions to Sidious, he could track them, resist them, understand them, and potentially let others understand them. But he can't with Snoke.

Lucas said that any author would be reluctant to make a villain more powerful than Sidious. This is not in-universe fact. This is a suggestion, an opinion. Disney is clearly not interested in this opinion.

The only in-universe fact Lucas made about Sidious' power is that Sidious is the most powerful sith to ever live. Snoke is not a sith.

That’s why I told him to shove his debate on another thread. He went into crazy babble and raving making no sense.

Luke didn’t force push Rey cause she’d kill herself with her saber, Vader and dooku couldn’t force choke the preatorian guards for some reason even though they have done it to others in battle

Somehow Luke coulda whooped Rey n Kylos ass but choose not to yet he’s as strong or stronger then his father and yoda though he has no fears to show that

Originally posted by Sinious
This is one of the shittiest arguments I've ever seen on these forums. Snoke trying so hard to stay hidden doesn't suggest weakness on Palp's part. It's the other way around.

Snoke remained hidden for a while (possibly a year or two) after Palpatine's death, so chances are he wasn't hiding out of fear.

He called Palpatine to him. Why would he do that if he was afraid? I know Fry said that he thought someone in Snoke's situation would try and stay away from Palpatine, but Wendig seems to think Snoke knew exactly what he was doing.

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
That’s why I told him to shove his debate on another thread. He went into crazy babble and raving making no sense.

Luke didn’t force push Rey cause she’d kill herself with her saber, Vader and dooku couldn’t force choke the preatorian guards for some reason even though they have done it to others in battle

Somehow Luke coulda whooped Rey n Kylos ass but choose not to yet he’s as strong or stronger then his father and yoda though he has no fears to show that

I'm just using your logic and standard for what can be considered evidence. Snoke might have had to prep before he moved in, which might've required a year or two, but the fact that he simply didn't walk over Palp's corpse and become the new Emperor is enough to know Palps is far superior.

Also, will you respond to my other post in this thread or have you finally conceded?

Originally posted by Zentrex
Let's look at it this way: You are the most powerful force user in the galaxy. You're sitting in your throne one day and all of a sudden you get a vision about the unknown regions of the galaxy. You don't know where they're from. You don't know who's sending them to you. But you know that they are a pathway to knowledge and power which you believe to be the very source of your power. You want to find out more about them. When you tell Vader about them, he thinks that you are going crazy. You also couldn't share these visions with Vader.

I imagine if it was anyone else sending these visions to Sidious, he could track them, resist them, understand them, and potentially let others understand them. But he can't with Snoke.

There was a better way to twist it.

You also used the "Black Hitler serving me pancakes so no one would believe me" defense to try and indicate power. Sometimes things just sound stupid. How do you think the dimension to all time and space would have gone over in a conversation?

"Hey Vader, there's this dimension only accessible by a boy where he can travel to all time and space and save or kill anyone in history by walking through a gateway. He used it to save Aksoka Tano in your fight... the same guy that was there if you imagine that! I need that boy in my life. Bring me that boy. I knew about this place for a long time."
"I... could save Padme...?"
"Uhhhh... no... ?"

Originally posted by Zentrex
Snoke remained hidden for a while (possibly a year or two) after Palpatine's death, so chances are he wasn't hiding out of fear.

He called Palpatine to him. Why would he do that if he was afraid? I know Fry said that he thought someone in Snoke's situation would try and stay away from Palpatine, but Wendig seems to think Snoke knew exactly what he was doing.

None of the arguments you mention are bad ones. I'm not saying I didn't make any shaky arguments, but in this post you picked the most logical things I'd said.

Are you autistic ?

You made the excuse that Luke let Rey embarrass him because by force pushing her would have hurt her even though this has never happened in Star Wars.

Then you said Vader n dooku couldn’t have force choked the praetorians because Kyle n Rey didn’t even though dooku and Vader have used they’re powers during battle. Dooku used his powers several times during battle, Vader did as well. I explained many times to you it depends on ones ability to focus I also explained that Rey n dooku were not fully trained

You posted zero evidence as to how Luke was stronger then his father let alone yoda. The fact he was overcome twice by newbs says he’s not

Originally posted by Sinious
I'm just using your logic and standard for what can be considered evidence. Snoke might have had to prep before he moved in, which might've required a year or two, but the fact that he simply didn't walk over Palp's corpse and become the new Emperor is enough to know Palps is far superior.

Also, will you respond to my other post in this thread or have you finally conceded?

What other point?

And how does him not walking in when Palpatine dies prove his inferiority? If Palpatine's not around, and he jumps in to become the emperor, that would've meant that the threat of a more powerful force user was holding him back from gaining power, but we see this is not true.

The TLJ novelization goes so far as to say Snoke "never imagined himself as a leader" implying that he didn't want to rule before the first order came in and he decided to do it.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I thought you were going somewhere with this but...

There was a better way to twist it.

You also used the "Black Hitler serving me pancakes so no one would believe me" defense to try and indicate power. Sometimes things just sound stupid. How do you think the dimension to all time and space would have gone over in a conversation?

"Hey Vader, there's this dimension only accessible by a boy where he can travel to all time and space and save or kill anyone in history by walking through a gateway. He used it to save Aksoka Tano in your fight... the same guy that was there if you imagine that! I need that boy in my life. Bring me that boy. I knew about this place for a long time."
"I... could save Padme...?"
"Uhhhh... no... ?"

The thing about the force is that something doesn't have to be "told" for you to understand. When Yoda was getting visions in TCW, Anakin understood, because they sort of knew what was happening. When Palpatine starts talking about something in the force Vader's never heard of, that's when you know that this power is beyond their understanding.

And yes, there defenitely was a better way to twist it, and I wasn't proud of the way I articulated this, but I've been typing these responses at like, 1:00 AM, so hopefully that explains some things.

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Are you autistic ?

You made the excuse that Luke let Rey embarrass him because by force pushing her would have hurt her even though this has never happened in Star Wars.

Then you said Vader n dooku couldn’t have force choked the praetorians because Kyle n Rey didn’t even though dooku and Vader have used they’re powers during battle. Dooku used his powers several times during battle, Vader did as well. I explained many times to you it depends on ones ability to focus I also explained that Rey n dooku were not fully trained

You posted zero evidence as to how Luke was stronger then his father let alone yoda. The fact he was overcome twice by newbs says he’s not

I posted all the evidence for each of those claims that any reasonable person needs.

Nah you’re trolling bro...what evidence, provide it, I posted evidence as well did I not?

I really don't know if I want to bother with that. I guess I could explain, in detail, why I believe that the whole Rey and Luke argument was not a real fight, but to me it's as obvious as the statement that water is wet.

I know you think I'm stupid. But just think of it the other way around. I make a claim which differs from your interpretation, and you don't see my side. I admit that this can be the case, and that we can have different interpretations, and that I could be wrong. You make a claim which I think is just as ludicrous (Luke and Rey's little curfuffle being a demonstration of their powers), and you think I'm an idiot for having a different point of view.

As for the preatorian fight:
here's essentially what happened between us:
you say that dooku and ventress have used force abilities during fights

The argument here is, if one has used force abilties during a fight, they can use it in another fight. So, by the same logic, if other force users have been seen using the force in a fight, then they should be able to do the same things.

I say that Rey and Kylo have also been shown using the force in fights

Now, if Dooku and Ventress could use the force against the Preatorians because they have been shown using the force in fights, then Rey and Kylo should also be able to use the force against the preatorians, since they've been shown using the force in other fights. But they didn't. This could mean a couple of things.
1. Using the force in other fights is not evidence that they'd be able to do it in this one. Perhaps they can't focus as easily when such advanced fighters are attacking them so rapidly.
2. Kylo and Rey didn't use the force in that particular fight because writing wanted to make it look cool.

You say that they're not trained enough

This is a distraction from the main point. It's irrelevant to my response, it's your way of dodging my argument. And it's a false claim.

I respond with "Kylo's been training his whole life"

You once again bring up the "Dooku and Ventress can force choke the guards" argument, and rinse and repeat.

As for Luke being strong.

So, JJ Abrams, in his notes for the Last Jedi, wanted Luke to have lightning come off of his in some scenes, he wanted some rocks to just lift themselves up when around him just to show how powerful he really is. This was later changed, since Rian Johnson wanted a Luke that was defeated and had severed his connection to the force.
Rian Johnson, at the end of the Last Jedi, wanted Luke to pull Star Destroyers out of the sky and start wreaking havok on the First Order, because of how powerful he is. He changed this because he didn't want the Force to be able to accomplish anything on that scale. The projection feat was Luke mass mind-tricking hundreds of people from lightyears away for ten strait minutes. This was said by Rian Jonson to be the most powerful use of the force in the Last Jedi.

It's clear that Luke was meant to be very, very powerful. And even in the Original Trilogy, his rise to power was quicker than it ever should have been. By return of the Jedi, he contends equally with Vader.

I don't know what else to say. I've laid out all I have again, and again, and again. If I can't convince you with what I've given you so far, I can't convince you at all, so stop asking me to do so.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I really don't know if I want to bother with that. I guess I could explain, in detail, why I believe that the whole Rey and Luke argument was not a real fight, but to me it's as obvious as the statement that water is wet.

I know you think I'm stupid. But just think of it the other way around. I make a claim which differs from your interpretation, and you don't see my side. I admit that this can be the case, and that we can have different interpretations, and that I could be wrong. You make a claim which I think is just as ludicrous (Luke and Rey's little curfuffle being a demonstration of their powers), and you think I'm an idiot for having a different point of view.

As for the preatorian fight:
here's essentially what happened between us:
you say that dooku and ventress have used force abilities during fights

The argument here is, if one has used force abilties during a fight, they can use it in another fight. So, by the same logic, if other force users have been seen using the force in a fight, then they should be able to do the same things.

I say that Rey and Kylo have also been shown using the force in fights

Now, if Dooku and Ventress could use the force against the Preatorians because they have been shown using the force in fights, then Rey and Kylo should also be able to use the force against the preatorians, since they've been shown using the force in other fights. But they didn't. This could mean a couple of things.
1. Using the force in other fights is not evidence that they'd be able to do it in this one. Perhaps they can't focus as easily when such advanced fighters are attacking them so rapidly.
2. Kylo and Rey didn't use the force in that particular fight because writing wanted to make it look cool.

You say that they're not trained enough

This is a distraction from the main point. It's irrelevant to my response, it's your way of dodging my argument. And it's a false claim.

I respond with "Kylo's been training his whole life"

You once again bring up the "Dooku and Ventress can force choke the guards" argument, and rinse and repeat.

As for Luke being strong.

So, JJ Abrams, in his notes for the Last Jedi, wanted Luke to have lightning come off of his in some scenes, he wanted some rocks to just lift themselves up when around him just to show how powerful he really is. This was later changed, since Rian Johnson wanted a Luke that was defeated and had severed his connection to the force.
Rian Johnson, at the end of the Last Jedi, wanted Luke to pull Star Destroyers out of the sky and start wreaking havok on the First Order, because of how powerful he is. He changed this because he didn't want the Force to be able to accomplish anything on that scale. The projection feat was Luke mass mind-tricking hundreds of people from lightyears away for ten strait minutes. This was said by Rian Jonson to be the most powerful use of the force in the Last Jedi.

It's clear that Luke was meant to be very, very powerful. And even in the Original Trilogy, his rise to power was quicker than it ever should have been. By return of the Jedi, he contends equally with Vader.

I don't know what else to say. I've laid out all I have again, and again, and again. If I can't convince you with what I've given you so far, I can't convince you at all, so stop asking me to do so.

1. How many times do I have to tell you that the more mental focus a force user has the more they can use it under pressure? Whaaaaat? Are you saying that Assajj Ventress and Obi wan weren’t more skilled then Kyle or Rey? I mean I’ve told you before that Rey n kylo aren’t even fully trained. Ok kylo was training all his life, so? That’s gonna put him on par with a Sith Lord or someone like Ventress ?

So he was meant to be...but wasn’t, who cares. He was t equal to his father bro, get over it. I’ve told you A MILLION TIMES BEFORE that Vader was conflicted and didn’t want to kill his son, didn’t Luke say I sense the good n you n all that? Didn’t Vader totally wreck Luke on cloud city?

Well I know who has at least destroyed droid armies and droid carriers...legends yoda not current Luke.

The problem, Zentrex, is that you have a bunch of opinions about Snoke's power... Which is fine.

The issue most of us are having with your opinions is that you're trying to sell them as irrefutable fact, despite your total lack of any quantifiable/legitimate evidence. It doesn't work that way.

Pretty much everything you've used to 'prove' your case here is wholly inadmissible, but you don't seem to grasp that. Hence the frustration.

Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
1. How many times do I have to tell you that the more mental focus a force user has the more they can use it under pressure? Whaaaaat? Are you saying that Assajj Ventress and Obi wan weren’t more skilled then Kyle or Rey? I mean I’ve told you before that Rey n kylo aren’t even fully trained. Ok kylo was training all his life, so? That’s gonna put him on par with a Sith Lord or someone like Ventress ?

So he was meant to be...but wasn’t, who cares. He was t equal to his father bro, get over it. I’ve told you A MILLION TIMES BEFORE that Vader was conflicted and didn’t want to kill his son, didn’t Luke say I sense the good n you n all that? Didn’t Vader totally wreck Luke on cloud city?

Well I know who has at least destroyed droid armies and droid carriers...legends yoda not current Luke.

And Kylo's been training for longer than Ventress, and obviously his potential was greater, so why would be not be more powerful than her? You use "writing" as a way to explain away why Vader, Dooku, and Ventress don't use the force when fighting enemies, even when they are struggling. But you don't give the same luxury to Rey or Kylo. I can only imagine it's because of your personal view of how a jedi progresses in power. This logic of yours seems to come from TCW.
That's not the logic JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson are going by. They're going by the progression we saw in the Original Trilogy, where Luke grew very much over a short period of time.
And you also seem to think that Luke didn't improve between Empire and Return of the Jedi. Let me remind you that at the end of Empire, he couldn't pull an x-wing out of a swamp, whereas at the beginning of Return of the Jedi, he was casually fighting a rancor and beating up groups of goons. And just because you don't want to kill someone doesn't mean you don't want to subdue them. Vader subdued Luke in Empire without harming him too much, so why wouldn't he just do that at the end of RotJ if he could?

Originally posted by Galan007
The problem, Zentrex, is that you have a bunch of opinions about Snoke's power... Which is fine.

The issue most of us are having with your opinions is that you're trying to sell them as irrefutable fact, despite your total lack of any quantifiable/legitimate evidence. It doesn't work that way.

Pretty much everything you've used to 'prove' your case here is wholly inadmissible, but you don't seem to grasp that. Hence the frustration.

Okay. Okay, okay, okay. I'm gonna stop pushing for Snoke's supremacy until more information about him comes out. Unless of course, that new information changes my mind.

Zentrex you didn’t debunk shit

Your short and substanceless responses are the exact thing I condemned in my reponse 6 comments back.

I gave you evidence which you ignored, you often end up back peddling in the end anyway. Not my fault you’re dumb which you admitted as well.

what evidence did I ignore?

Kylo hasn't been training for longer than Ventress. He's had max 11 years of training total. Ventress was a Jedi alone for 10 years.