Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Originally posted by abhilegend
Retconning history doesn't invalidate an entire continuity, you dumb troll.

But what you fail to realize is random ads, websites, easter eggs, and writer interviews don't restore all prior continuity either.

Way to punctuate my point you witless imbecile. laughcry

Originally posted by ODG
Multiple on-panel retcons do not necessarily do so, no.

But what you fail to realize is random ads, websites, easter eggs, and writer interviews don't restore all prior continuity either.

Way to punctuate my point you witless imbecile. laughcry

Originally posted by abhilegend
Every crisis is undone by Death Metal, it is all canon.

Let's start with something basic.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Where's the proof that all of it wasn't undone? Here's the explicit confirmation from Infinite Frontier that all the crisis events are undone.

Why did you crop the scan where it was outright stated that the timeline manipulation to the universe was undone?

What are you even talking about here retard? Darkseid was fragmented after first crisis, that's why he was restored. Batman's history was restored, he's not some amalgamation.

None of that changes anything from what I said, history was restored of the prime universe. Retcons happen all the time in comics, they don't invalidate entire history of characters.

Listen retard, you think I need your approval to use actual comic history from DC? This isn't a debate to take your approval, it's simply a fact sharing post. Your denial isn't going to change anything.

Originally posted by ODG
That have, in the past three years sincee, proven to be hollow promises. Well you'd be a moron for not accepting current issues of World's Finest which are actively retconning DC history of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, etc.

You could be excused for not reading that series entirely, but nobody's fooled. You read that series obsessively searching for pre-Crisis easter eggs while hypocritically ignoring the new continuity being retconned/established.

Far be it for me to accuse you of having an agenda though.

The opposite can also be said. You called it easter eggs but other people can read it as DC brings up previous elements(and many pre-crisis elements in it) to prove their promises back in the Death Metal are true.
The only evidence you can bring about is *some* retcons in *some* history, which really isn't no definite proof for invalidating what Death Metal established

Like I said before, the main point here is that I've very specific proofs that can support my claims, while you can only rely on something very arbitrary assumptions

Originally posted by abhilegend
On panel confirmations do that, you ****ing moron.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So DC made it clear all history is canon on panel, right?

You'll just repeat your own conclusions over and over again. But your own years-old preconceptions that have been dispelled by DC comics isn't something we can discuss. We can deconstruct it, sure. But I'm more interested in the comics, pal. Not getting to the root of your obsession with tongue-in-cheek PC easter egg references.

Originally posted by ODG
The exact opposite if you read current DC comics. If you cannot admit the retcons that have occurred on-panel in the past three years, there's no constructive discussion to be had.

You'll just repeat your own conclusions over and over again. But your own years-old preconceptions that have been dispelled by DC comics isn't something we can discuss. We can deconstruct it, sure. But I'm more interested in the comics, pal. Not getting to the root of your obsession with tongue-in-cheek PC easter egg references.

Edit:
Also it seems really ironic when DC uses pre-crisis elements you chalk it to easter eggs, but when some random retcons in some details(which happens a lot in comics, and it generally doesn't invalid the whole timeline/history, see my Superman origins example) you immediately jump to conclusion that DC invalidate the entire Death Metal/the whole timeline

Originally posted by ODG
[B]That's been my argument the whole time. There is no "single combined timeline" as a limitless multiverse and hypertime still exist in DC. On-panel.

Not all pre-Crisis history applies to Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman because we see on-panel stories of their first meetings and adventures that utterly contradict/retcon pre-Crisis history depictions of same.

Why are you so stupid?

odg brings up the same wrong points every month like a woman going through her period. it's so annoying

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And when I read the current DC comics, I found the exact opposite proofs of your claims. The main difference here is at least I can provide explicit proofs for my claims in official sources, while you can only rely on your personal feelings and some very arbitrary assumptions

The abject denial of this can be explained by a number of reasons:

b](i)[/b] you never read them (but you clearly did);
(ii) you myopically disregard them in favor of easter egg references;
(iii) you utterly ignore them in favor of comics published over 3+ years ago whose promises of a "single combined timeline have since proven utterly false and, therefore hollow; and/or
(iv) you're just rewriting the history of our simple discussion in a desperate attempt to mislead random KMC posters.

I'm leaning towards more of (iv), at this point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What does that has to do with the prime universe timeline being restored, you moron? Multiverse has nothing to do with it.

This is a basic concept that you should be more than amply aware of. So I'd ask that you stop begging an obvious question. And given I am only 9 beers in, I'll try and be more cordial about to foster actual debate.

Not that you personally deserve it, mind you. I mean, let's not pretend you aren't trying to drag me down with you via mutually assured destruction to cover up actually constructive discussion that proves you wrong.

But I mean, why not attempt strictly polite/constructive discussion? Might not help... but... can't hurt, right?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So what? We have seen even post Crisis retellings of these first meeting, do we discard post Crisis continuity after each retcon?

You discard past depictions in favor of the newly retconned history. For instance, after Crisis on Infinite Earths, George Perez retconned Wonder Woman into being sculpted from clay. Afterwards, Brian Azzarello retconned that Diana is the biological daughter of Zeus. So is Wonder Woman sculpted from clay or is she the biological daughter of Zeus? That's binary: either she is one or the other. Well, ever since Azzarello/Rucka, Wonder Woman is the biological daughter of Zeus. Which necessitates discarding the previous "clay sculpting" origin because it was retconned. On-panel.

This isn't a shocking concept that we must intuit. Indeed, in the marquis event, Doomsday Clock, DC exhaustively portrayed the on-panel process by which this retcon process works. Retconned events now existentially manifest themselves within distinct alternate universe timelines. So the retconned histories no longer apply to current character depictions but they are "preserved" in their distinct alternate universes.

That's the most honest reading for simple comics reading. And that comes from DC itself. Canonicity-wise, canonically speaking.

But KMC debate-wise? That's a different matter. It's an obvious trend on KMC to ignore such on-panel retcons for debate purposes. Anything post-Crisis is citable for KMC debate purposes. But that's just for the conveniency of KMC debates. It doesn't actually track from the comics themselves.

Now, during Dark Nights: Death Metal and its wake, it appeared to be declared that there would be a "single combined timeline". BUt that never came to fruition. And if you read published articles, it's obvious why. They tried and it just didn't work. But fort KMC debate purposes, I don't need to refute writer interviews with other writer interviews.

KMC debates comics. Either debate the comics or don't.

Originally posted by ODG
I provided entire storylines that retconned pre-Crisis depictions since Dark Nights: Death Metal.

The abject denial of this can be explained by a number of reasons:

b](i) you never read them (but you clearly did);
(ii) you myopically disregard them in favor of easter egg references;
(iii) you utterly ignore them in favor of comics published over 3+ years ago whose promises of a "single combined timeline have since proven utterly false and, therefore hollow; and/or
(iv) you're just rewriting the history of our simple discussion in a desperate attempt to mislead random KMC posters.

I'm leaning towards more of (iv), at this point. [/B]

And I can say that I provided *explicit* proofs that say the single combined timeline is true, plus a lof of elements of different eras(including pre-crisis etc) get brought back after Death Metal

Or you're just butthurt and can't provide a single instance where it explicitly supports your claims. So you just can't accept other possible explanations no matter how many proofs it has

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Some retcons in some storyline that have nothing to do with Death Metal doesn't equal to invalidate the Death Metal

But the promises it forecasted for all DC comics moving forward? Well, its up to all DC comics moving forward to fulfill those promises. If they don't, well... they don't. And we've had 3+ years of DC publishing history since then to observe so far.

Now, I get that a "single combined timeline" for DC is everything you wished for because it might justify your excessive obsession/scanning of irrelevant pre-Crisis comics for some mysterious reason. And that might have been what Dark Nights: Death Metal's conclusion was originally supposed to precipitate. But if that hasn't actually manifested on-panel in the past 3+ years of published DC comics, what am I arguing against? I shouldn't have to disprove a negative -- even though I have with all the active on-panel retcons.

I'm just arguing against your desperate clinging to an unfulfilled promise as amply demonstrated by 3+ years of DC publication. Why is it my burden to disprove your argument?

But we both know the truth. Any such notion of pre-Crisis history wholesale applying to current DC characters has been actively refuted and retconned on-panel. DC "turned back" on whatever promise Dark Nights: Death Metal might've proposed. We both know this. Don't pretend otherwise.

Your obsession over ads, interviews and tweets would have clearly exposed you to the behind-the-scenes decisions that ended up reversing such plans. But it's not my job to refute stuff that is banned from KMC debate consideration. So your grievance is really with DC rather than me. You ought to tweet angrily at DC writers/editors for not reinforcing current Superman's adventures during WW2. Rather than protest against my clear recounting of the past 3+ years of on-panel DC comics.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And I can say that I provided *explicit* proofs that say the single combined timeline is true

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Or you're just butthurt

Originally posted by ODG
Blatant straw-man. Dark Nights: Death Metal happened. I never disputed that.

But the promises it forecasted for all DC comics moving forward? Well, its up to all DC comics moving forward to fulfill those promises. If they don't, well... they don't. And we've had 3+ years of DC publishing history since then to observe so far.

Now, I get that a "single combined timeline" for DC is everything you wished for because it might justify your excessive obsession/scanning of irrelevant pre-Crisis comics for some mysterious reason. And that might have been what Dark Nights: Death Metal's conclusion was originally supposed to precipitate. But if that hasn't actually manifested on-panel in the past 3+ years of published DC comics, what am I arguing against? I shouldn't have to disprove a negative -- even though I have with all the active on-panel retcons.

I'm just arguing against your desperate clinging to an unfulfilled promise as amply demonstrated by 3+ years of DC publication. Why is it my burden to disprove your argument?

But we both know the truth. Any such notion of pre-Crisis history wholesale applying to current DC characters has been actively refuted and retconned on-panel. DC "turned back" on whatever promise Dark Nights: Death Metal might've proposed. We both know this. Don't pretend otherwise.

Your obsession over ads, interviews and tweets would have clearly exposed you to the behind-the-scenes decisions that ended up reversing such plans. But it's not my job to refute stuff that is banned from KMC debate consideration. So your grievance is really with DC rather than me. You ought to tweet angrily at DC writers/editors for not reinforcing current Superman's adventures during WW2. Rather than protest against my clear recounting of the past 3+ years of on-panel DC comics. Such "promises" could've proven true but for the actual on-panel retcons of pre-Crisis history that are ongoing over the past 3_ years. And they override your reliance on tongue-in-cheek pre-Crisis easter egg references. Your estimation of which sort of "proof" is more probative is a$$-backwards, unfortunately. You're better than this. Discuss this topic constructively or don't.

^ If you continue to ignore the past 3+ years of DC publication as a whole in favor of cherrypicked easter egg allusions within throwaway single panels, I can't help you.

You're better than this or not.

But, well... let me offer an olive branch. I suppose I'd be actually interested in hearing how you would reconcile Wonder Woman's career during WW2 and the Justice Society in current continuity. Just for Wonder Woman, mind you. Give me a 3-sentence summary.

Originally posted by ODG
^ If you continue to ignore the past 3+ years of DC publication as a whole in favor of cherrypicked easter egg allusions within throwaway single panels, I can't help you.

You're better than this or not.

But, well... let me offer an olive branch. I suppose I'd be actually interested in hearing how you would reconcile Wonder Woman's career during WW2 and the Justice Society in current continuity. Just for Wonder Woman, mind you. Give me a 3-sentence summary.

Sure, I can give you...through the actual writer's words

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

As for the timeline part, why not let the guy(Scott Snyder) who made "everything happened" explain to you?
Timestamped:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQAGmBZPhdQ&t=4648s
"Both happned, both can be referenced"

Originally posted by ODG
Because it indicates that alternate past timelines existentially manifest as distinct alternate universes amongst an infinite multiverse that are separate from the DC's current canon timeline.

There's no such thing as alternate past timelines. In either dc or marvel, only alternate future timelines exist.

This is a basic concept that you should be more than amply aware of. So I'd ask that you stop begging an obvious question. And given I am only 9 beers in, I'll try and be more cordial about to foster actual debate.

Post an actual scan that shows the term alternate past timeline.

Not that you personally deserve it, mind you. I mean, let's not pretend you aren't trying to drag me down with you via mutually assured destruction to cover up actually constructive discussion that proves you wrong.

But I mean, why not attempt strictly polite/constructive discussion? Might not help... but... can't hurt, right? Strictly speaking, for canonicity purposes, yes. Precisely that. That's what an on-panel retcons do.

No, that's not what retcons do, they change the already existing timeline. They don't create an alternative timeline.

You discard past depictions in favor of the newly retconned history. For instance, after Crisis on Infinite Earths, George Perez retconned Wonder Woman into being sculpted from clay. Afterwards, Brian Azzarello retconned that Diana is the biological daughter of Zeus. So is Wonder Woman sculpted from clay or is she the biological daughter of Zeus? That's binary: either she is one or the other. Well, ever since Azzarello/Rucka, Wonder Woman is the biological daughter of Zeus. Which necessitates discarding the previous "clay sculpting" origin because it was retconned. On-panel.

Yes, but that doesn't retcons stories where Diana is turned back to clay like War of the Gods isn't randomly out of continuity because Diana is now daughter of Zeus and in War of The Gods Circe turns Diana back to clay. That's not how continuity works.

This isn't a shocking concept that we must intuit. Indeed, in the marquis event, Doomsday Clock, DC exhaustively portrayed the on-panel process by which this retcon process works. Retconned events now existentially manifest themselves within distinct alternate universe timelines. So the retconned histories no longer apply to current character depictions but they are "preserved" in their distinct alternate universes.

Death Metal re-retconned Doomsday Clock. It's simple as that.

That's the most honest reading for simple comics reading. And that comes from DC itself. Canonicity-wise, canonically speaking.

Obvious chicanery is obvious.

But KMC debate-wise? That's a different matter. It's an obvious trend on KMC to ignore such on-panel retcons for debate purposes. Anything post-Crisis is citable for KMC debate purposes. But that's just for the conveniency of KMC debates. It doesn't actually track from the comics themselves.

I would say the same thing for marvel, Bor for instance died in his bed under Matt Fraction before Thor was even born but he died fighting Thor under JMS. Does that makes Thor v3 alternate past timeline?

Now, during Dark Nights: Death Metal and its wake, it appeared to be declared that there would be a "single combined timeline". BUt that never came to fruition. And if you read published articles, it's obvious why. They tried and it just didn't work.

But fort KMC debate purposes, I don't need to refute writer interviews with other writer interviews.

KMC debates comics. Either debate the comics or don't.

I debate comics, you debate your own fanfiction.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Again, the opposite also can be said. You can ignore all the elements that get back after Death Metal, chalk them to esater egg

And World's Finest isn't the only ongoing comic series that does so. It's just that World's Finest is the most blatantly convenient to confront you, qwertyuiop1998, with. Because you've surreptitiously tried to rely on snippets of tongue-in-cheek easter egg references from that same series to peddle your position while hypocritically disregarding the entire comics-long storyline that utterly retcon pre-Crisis history.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
(even though some of them has the editor explicitly gives the reference of the old issue)

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Sure, I can give you...through the actual writer's words

I didn't ask you to lazily link a 3+ years-old youtube interview with a writer that doesn't actually write Wonder Woman. Snyder's 3+ years-old youtube interview represents nothing more than an outdated salesman pitch or advertisement that never materialized. That happens in business. It's also against KMC debating rules.

Why can't you just tell me your position. Why can't you just rely on comics? Why can't you just summarize Wonder Woman's career during WW2 and the Justice Society in current continuity?

Again, these questions border on being a rhetorical and honest queries. I'm quite confident I know why you refuse to answer them. It's up to you to dispel such assumptions.

Originally posted by ODG
[B]Whole current issues of World's Finest literally retell the first meetings of Superman & Batman & Wonder Woman's first adventures with each other. And they utterly conflict/retcon pre-Crisis depictions. Those retellings act as retcons and override pre-Crisis depictions. Randomly scattered easter egg references don't override these issues-long, on-panel retellings/retcons.

There are numerous retellings of first meetings between marvel characters such as Thor and Hulk, Heck Namor and Captain America didn't even recognise each other when they first met each other in Avengers despite fighting together in invaders. Does that makes Avengers early stories non canon?

Originally posted by ODG
Whole current issues of World's Finest literally retell the first meetings of Superman & Batman & Wonder Woman's first adventures with each other. And they utterly conflict/retcon pre-Crisis depictions. Those retellings act as retcons and override pre-Crisis depictions. Randomly scattered easter egg references don't override these issues-long, on-panel retellings/retcons.

And World's Finest isn't the only ongoing comic series that does so. It's just that World's Finest is the most blatantly convenient to confront you, [b]qwertyuiop1998, with. Because you've surreptitiously tried to rely on snippets of tongue-in-cheek easter egg references from that same series to peddle your position while hypocritically disregarding the entire comics-long storyline that utterly retcon pre-Crisis history. Personally, I nerd out over those little text boxes of editor's notes. I love to read the explicit citations to old comics. So if you have those, post them please. I'll address them in turn with great enthusiasm. I asked you, qwertyuiop1998, how you would reconcile Wonder Woman's career during WW2 and the Justice Society in current continuity.

I didn't ask you to lazily link a 3+ years-old youtube interview with a writer that doesn't actually write Wonder Woman. Snyder's 3+ years-old youtube interview represents nothing more than an outdated salesman pitch or advertisement that never materialized. That happens in business. It's also against KMC debating rules.

Why can't you just tell me your position. Why can't you just rely on comics? Why can't you just summarize Wonder Woman's career during WW2 and the Justice Society in current continuity?

Again, these questions border on being a rhetorical and honest queries. I'm quite confident I know why you refuse to answer them. It's up to you to dispel such assumptions. [/B]

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
That is a lot of words for saying "I don't have any explicit proofs that invalidate the single combined timeline"

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Again, the opposite also can be said. You can ignore all the elements that get back after Death Metal, chalk them to esater egg(even though some of them has the editor explicitly gives the reference of the old issue)

Sure, I can give you...through the actual writer's words

The assumptions that can be easily explained as wrtiers just ignore some storyline in order to tell a good story. See what Snyder said
Or another official source, in the licensed bio that says all past iterations of DC character continuity were housed in one continuity
https://ibb.co/9vw1Rx7
Then says despite the characters remember their different past versions, writers can concern on good stories, rather than a new continuity reset would exclusively replace and render obsolete the previous one
https://ibb.co/Hrj2MmC

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I give you answers but you just simply don't accept them.

Agree to disagree. 👆

Originally posted by abhilegend
There's no such thing as alternate past timelines.

Originally posted by abhilegend
There's no such thing as alternate past timelines.

Originally posted by abhilegend
There's no such thing as alternate past timelines.

I couldn't possibly take credit for it given I put you on ignore for 10+ years. Which KMC poster(s) did this to you? Tell us, please. I might want to give them a trophy. Maybe even a reach around! Seriously, who reduced you to such a lowly pathetic state like this?

I mean, I tried polite/constructive discussion but this response is so factually offensive, I think any attempted geniality is wasted.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Death Metal re-retconned Doomsday Clock. It's simple as that.

But DC makes it very clear that the N52 history is still part of the main universe Superman's history
https://ibb.co/T2xWMjq
https://ibb.co/t8VcmqN
https://ibb.co/8DCczLW

And in the recent Blue Beetle run(after Death Metal) also refers both Pre-crisis and N52 comics
https://ibb.co/sP68DZV