End of page bump
Black Hand? Too difficult to put on the list?
Coldcast at LH?
Eradicator [non-fortress] at mid/high herald?
Originally posted by MrMind
I'm gonna mention some street level just because the street tier is so thin
Batwoman- LS
Connor Hawke- HS
Shado-MS
Arrowette-MS
Speedy-LS
Ultimate Hawkeye-HS
Ultimate Cap-There's argument to made he's LM, so what do you guys think?
Maverick-MS
Toad-HS
yeah, and hal really pushed his sh!t in in that rematch. i guess he MAY have thrown it, but i definitely lean towards not. there are some powerful people in that mh tier. imo he should stay there. /shrug
black hand is tough to gauge. not sure where you could put him. his power is a little haxx and seems a bit plot dependent. not sure exactly how it translates in a forum setting.
Originally posted by MrMindThe argument for LH is his lack of versatility. CS is essentially *just* really strong/durable... The same basic reason bricks like Juggernaut and Hulk aren't higher on the list. I get it.
Regarding Citizen Steel, What LH do you guys think can knock down freakin Gog?
But keep in mind that even if we bump CS down to LH, it doesn't mean he still isn't capable of contending with any HH in a slugfest. /shrug
Originally posted by PhilBH's power is completely arc-dependent. Under Johns and Venditti alone it went from HMish to easily Trans+. Really hard to gauge him.
End of page bumpBlack Hand? Too difficult to put on the list?
Coldcast at LH?
Eradicator [non-fortress] at mid/high herald?
Agree with the proposals for Erads and Coldcast.
Originally posted by leonidasYeah, but that was Hal... A serious Hal, to boot. And given the sheer consistency of Hal's ridiculously uber feats over the last several years, a strong argument could be made that he is at least Trans these days, imo. I mean, we have Sentinel(Alan Scott) at Trans, and I'd wager that Hal could match(and in many cases exceed) anything Sentinel did on panel. /shrug
yeah, and hal really pushed his sh!t in in that rematch. i guess he MAY have thrown it, but i definitely lean towards not. there are some powerful people in that mh tier. imo he should stay there. /shrug
I guess my point is that I don't view Zod losing to a serious Hal as a low showing in the slightest(even if Zod legitimately lost.) There are few characters in comics that are as OP as Hal is(especially under Johns/Venditti)... And Morrison is going absolutely bananas with him as well.
Yeah, I mean if losing to Hal doesn't make you a high-herald, the tier would be near empty. He won the first fight, too, forcing Hal to change tactics [multi-directional construct attack].
As I said, I can see the reasons - not enough versatility in power usage, but at the same time he's not one-dimensional brick like, say Juggernaut [or Mongul, if you catch my dirft] and whatnot - nevertheless, seeing Zod roflstomp Kyle & Henshaw [HH], Eradicator [at least MH] and one-shotting Supergirl [MH] are something that cannot be ignored, imo.
wasn't zod amped by 2 suns in that arc? and this is part of the problem with elevating superman. now anyone who fights him and does well, or fights his peers and does well, can be arguably elevated. if superman is trans, we could raise hal. a case could be made for wonder woman who also did well against the kryptonians not too long ago. i dunno. slippery slope.
But this has nothing to do with Superman. I mean -- he hasn't even been mentioned? God-will Hal, Kyle Rayner, Henshaw, Eradicator, Supergirl, Mongul are all not dependent on Superman's showings and they don't get his feats. I don't see people arguing Zod can sing abstracts out of existence, tank abstracts and whatnot etc. Those are not his showings.
Hal certainly has a case of being trans - but again, that has nothing to do with Superman either, no? Nobody is arguing Hal is trans because of Superman. Nobody is arguing Zod is HH because of Superman. Nobody is arguing WW is HH because of Superman [and they'd fail to argue she's trans, too].
I don't see the slipper slope, tbh.
I disagree. When superman was hh no one would have thought that zod should be hh. Why because zod is definitively below. But now is he 2 tiers lower? Same can be said for we. If superman stayed at hh, would anyone ever really consider elevating Hal to trans or even raising we to hh? No chance because that would place Hal above superman and make ww equal in the tiers. This is the domino effect and even if it’s not based on direct comparison to superman his tier does affect how we see others and their relatives status compared to him. Not sure how you think his tiering is not impacting his peers.
Nothing I mentioned in regards to Zod hinges on Superman, tbh. I'd be saying the same thing even if Supes were still at HH, because again, just because 2 characters are in the same tier doesn't necessarily make them equals. There are high, mid, and low characters within every tier.
That said, I feel like Zod's feats paint a really good picture as to why he could be HH... But as always, I leave it up to the majority.
As for Hal: him potentially being Trans also has nothing to do with Superman being elevated to that position for me. The sheer consistency of Hal's uber feats over the last several years speak for themselves, and frankly, suggest that he could be off the list entirely in many cases... Not that I am proposing him for Trans right now(though I feel like I could make a really strong case for it) -- just saying that losing to him doesn't change Zod's status in my eyes.
Originally posted by leonidasI disagree. I don't think anybody is ranking Zod based on Superman - I mean, we use feats that have literally nothing to do with Superman. If Zod would have had the same feats as he does now, the discussion would be literally the same.
I disagree. When superman was hh no one would have thought that zod should be hh. Why because zod is definitively below. But now is he 2 tiers lower? Same can be said for we. If superman stayed at hh, would anyone ever really consider elevating Hal to trans or even raising we to hh? No chance because that would place Hal above superman and make ww equal in the tiers. This is the domino effect and even if it’s not based on direct comparison to superman his tier does affect how we see others and their relatives status compared to him. Not sure how you think his tiering is not impacting his peers.
I'd agree with you if this had - anything - to do with Zod's, Hal's or Wonder Woman's feats against Superman. But Wonder Woman's movement to HH had nothing to do with Clark, Hal's movement to trans has nothing to do with Superman, Zod's movement has nothing to do with Superman.
I mean, you can literally remove Superman entirely, and we still would have the same discussion.
ok, fair enough. maybe the 2 of you are able to divorce the movement from your opinions and look at each character independently. i guess i'm skeptical that others will be able to do so. i mean we've already seen the domino effect trying to get a foothold in the street tier. if (a) is in this tier (b) should also be. and if (b) is, then so should (c). i have a hard time believing that people will not be influenced by the movement of certain characters, and moving one seems to allow for movement of others. i will drop the issue for now though and be ready for an huge i told ya so later. 😄
Originally posted by leonidasI'll divorce you. sneer
ok, fair enough. maybe the 2 of you are able to divorce the movement from your opinions and look at each character independently. i guess i'm skeptical that others will be able to do so. i mean we've already seen the domino effect trying to get a foothold in the street tier. if (a) is in this tier (b) should also be. and if (b) is, then so should (c). i have a hard time believing that people will not be influenced by the movement of certain characters, and moving one seems to allow for movement of others. i will drop the issue for now though and be ready for an huge i told ya so later. 😄
Originally posted by leonidas😛
ok, fair enough. maybe the 2 of you are able to divorce the movement from your opinions and look at each character independently. i guess i'm skeptical that others will be able to do so. i mean we've already seen the domino effect trying to get a foothold in the street tier. if (a) is in this tier (b) should also be. and if (b) is, then so should (c). i have a hard time believing that people will not be influenced by the movement of certain characters, and moving one seems to allow for movement of others. i will drop the issue for now though and be ready for an huge i told ya so later. 😄
Trust me, I take extra steps to ignore/not even think of Superman in every vote I have, as much as possible. I know my biases, lol.
Until the Zod part is given opinions by others..
---
Yeah, Black Hand is tricky as shit.
More opinions on Eradicator?
Heimdall -- ??? Hm?
Bushmaster?
Battle Beast?