KMC Comic Book Tiers (v2.0)

Originally posted by Philosophía
She had an even fight with Punisher once:
https://imgur.com/a/NIY70

Then she lost the fight against him in close quarters, and used weapons from the environment, as he had his back turned and was walking towards the weapon, in order to win:
https://imgur.com/a/eQLE1

Are these what you're referring to? The ones you call trashing?

She's also lost to Bucky, while she had Captain America's shield, too:
https://imgur.com/a/9EO9k

The Bucky fight is from 2009. Again, pre-MCU Widow, which is the start of Marvel's big push for her.

That's also what makes her different from Catman. This isn't one author's wank, it's the company position on who Widow is; ie, revising her to be a HS character.

Meh, that's speculation.

My vote is no, based on feats. Maybe when she shows more.

Originally posted by Philosophía
The weapons she used are the ones Frank dropped. Nevertheless, Frank had her down, and walked away, which gave her the opportunity to use them.

Furthermore, within the forum, the fight starts 0.5 km apart, in a featureless environment. Not in an apartment, where she can get close quarters.

https://imgur.com/a/gOm6D/

https://imgur.com/a/mfeER

She has the ranged feats too.

She has a sniper as standard equipment?

Deadshot has better. So does Tim Drake. And much, much better standard equipment. Would you like me to show some? They're mid street, btw.

Originally posted by Smurph
I can reword: decisively beat, instead of trash? Punisher gets the jump on her, armed to the teeth, they trade blows in close quarters, and she disables him and wins. It's just clearly a tier above in terms of skill etc, although I'd push for Punisher to be HS anyways, largely because of his gear.

Nah sorry just had a look at that panel again. Blsck Widow won that fight because Punisher turned his back not because shes more skillful. Ok maybe if he hadn't turned his back she could have still won bust she waas losing and that's why she won in this instance.

I still think she should be in HS though.

Originally posted by Philosophía
She has a sniper as standard equipment?

Deadshot has better. So does Tim Drake. And much, much better standard equipment. Would you like me to show some? They're mid street, btw.

My point (obviously) was that she's not limited to close quarters, although I don't think your argument on that point tracks very well anyways.

Stalemating Elektra is another example of Marvel treating her as an actual top tier combatant. https://imgur.com/a/FrhZM

Anyways, that's my vote on Widow.

i can def see where smurph's coming from with widow but the line between ms and hs is pretty blurry. i don't see it as a large error keeping her where she is. /shrug

regarding nate--i still don't reliably see him as high herald, though again, it is close and i wouldn't call leaving him, OR bumping him, any kind of egregious error. and let's try and keep that in mind as we deliberate characters--the goal is to find a solid, defensible place for them. if as solid a case can be made AGAINST a character moving up a tier, as FOR said character moving up, they are likely fine wherever they are.

Anyhow, I'm against moving Black Widow - and Tim Drake, Deadshot, Punisher, Catman, Hush and Moon Knight. The tiers are thin as it is, nevermind stuffing them all at high street.

Originally posted by Smurph
I dunno, she changes guns a bunch.

My point (obviously) was that she's not limited to close quarters, although I don't think your argument on that point tracks very well anyways.

I do agree with your Elektra point, but those are not unseen in the mid-tiers [Deathshot has stalemated Deathstroke, Catman has stalemated Batman etc.]. Consistently, I don't see her there. This could, of course, change in the future - as I do agree she'll get a push [I mean, she has a movie coming up]. But we need the in-comic book stuff.

Originally posted by leonidas
and let's try and keep that in mind as we deliberate characters--the goal is to find a solid, defensible place for them. if as solid a case can be made AGAINST a character moving up a tier, as FOR said character moving up, they are likely fine wherever they are.

Originally posted by leonidas
i can def see where smurph's coming from with widow but the line between ms and hs is pretty blurry. i don't see it as a large error keeping her where she is. /shrug

regarding nate--i still don't reliably see him as high herald, though again, it is close and i wouldn't call leaving him, OR bumping him, any kind of egregious error. and let's try and keep that in mind as we deliberate characters--the goal is to find a solid, defensible place for them. if as solid a case can be made AGAINST a character moving up a tier, as FOR said character moving up, they are likely fine wherever they are.

Some of this is general power creep, too. I do think that BW made a big leap in ability where other characters made small jumps, but pretty much everybody's getting better feats across the board nowadays.

i could see her moving in the next year maybe, as she accumulates more and more feats. she's been around long enough anyway--she's one of the characters that DESERVES a small bump. so long as they don't go crazy all of a sudden with her. and since she's still russian, i don't imagine they will. lol

Well Punisher has plenty of feats that could but him in HS. Recent showing against Iron Fist, his fight against the Avengers, stalemating Alyosha Kravinoff ( a guy that beat Black Panther in h2h) after going through a gauntlet of supervillains. Most of his fights against Daredevil which as I've analyzed they are actually a lot more closer than people think it's just sometimes Punisher has trouble hiting him at first but the longer the fight goes on the closer it gets. If it's a short scuffle between DD and Punisher sometimes it will look like DD is winning.

Recently people seem to be giving Punsiher better feats.

EDIT: I'm looking at HS and it looks to me that Punisher could beat some of the guys in HS and give a lot of them a run for thier money with standard gear.

Originally posted by leonidas
i could see her moving in the next year maybe, as she accumulates more and more feats. she's been around long enough anyway--she's one of the characters that DESERVES a small bump. so long as they don't go crazy all of a sudden with her. and since she's still russian, i don't imagine they will. lol

But yeah, we might be having a different discussion here in 1-2 years.

So had a consensus been reached about these characters in particular(looks like most agree on the other proposals)..?:

Nate Grey
Black Widow
Talon (Calvin Rose)
Gotham Butcher (Felix Harmon)

??

seems nate and widow can stay...?

i'm not familiar enough with the others to comment and will trust the others' judgments.

anyone have any thoughts on the impossible man...? 😕

Unless other voices chime in, I think we live Widow and Nate where they are.

Gotham Butcher seems Low Meta based on the train feat, but he's also low on feats in general, and that one is weird because it's from his youth?

I was mostly curious where people would peg Calvin Rose, but I don't have an opinion on it.

Originally posted by Galan007
??

maybe he just doesn't have enough feats yet and should be left off for now?

Odin to HH?

Originally posted by leonidas
maybe he just doesn't have enough feats yet and should be left off for now?

PS: I want to say something about the Impossible Man, but I'll have to do some research. I remember him as a Plastic Man-lite, but I'm not sure if that's entirely accurate.

Silk to Low Meta
Spider-Gwen to Low Meta