weapon h vs superman

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, like i said--i think a definition of IN CHARACTER is really noticeably absent from the rules. odd, since we profess to be a character-first type forum. is a definition something that might be considered being added?

Speed is among the most rudimentary abilities in a character's arsenal, and Superman has a well-documented history of superspeed usage. Therefore, once Superman figured out whether or not WH's claws pose a legitimate threat to him(which could be deduced via a quick molecular scan, even IF he goes into this battle without any knowledge of WH's abilities), then logic dictates that Supes would at least use *enough* speed to dodge WH's attacks in order to avoid getting killed. I mean, even if we don't want to allow a character to use the full breadth of their superspeed offensively in a forum battle, then surely they should be able to use just enough of that speed defensively to protect themselves, no? I'm sure everyone can agree that most characters are intended to go into a forum battle with the basic will to live, right?

IOW, if character A can dodge bullets, and character B points a gun at them and pulls the trigger, would we not assume that character A will dodge the bullets in a forum battle if they have done so in the past? Again, that much just comes down to instinctual self-preservation, imo. /shrug

Yes Blue, accept The Gamma Father fully. Let him in when he knocks, and release all your inhibitions. Let Rage guide you.

As Pope Carver IX once famously said:

"You must fall to rage. Remove your limits, and remove your clothes and let me see the Rage in you, and let it rise up and fill you with its warm sticky embrace! Don't tell your mother."

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
None of which is anywhere close to Superman seeing punches coming and being fast enough to think three moves ahead of everyone except Barry.

And none of it needs to be because:

1. even Flashes get caught by thunderclaps, and Superman does NOT ordinarily, perceive things the slo-mo way a Flash supposedly does
2. Superman doesn't, in character, have the tendency to dodge the very first attack of an opponent, whether he sees their punch or not
3. this is in close quarters
and
4. Weapon H is aided by Domino's luck ability, which immediately reduces the chance of Superman operating at 100% effectiveness after the opening bell.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And none of it needs to be because:

1. even Flashes get caught by thunderclaps, and Superman does NOT ordinarily, perceive things the slo-mo way a Flash supposedly does
2. Superman doesn't, in character, have the tendency to dodge the very first attack of an opponent, whether he sees their punch or not
3. this is in close quarters
and
4. Weapon H is aided by Domino's luck ability, which immediately reduces the chance of Superman operating at 100% effectiveness after the opening bell.

1. And even Hulk's gamma maths leads to him being defeated on occasion, hence my post about double standards.

2. But here we have a guy with claws that are three feet long doing the punching.....my point is that he would.

3. So is this:

And that's two human level, equal guys in speed (relative to the gaps we see between say a speedy herald and a slow meta, whatever).

4. So what has he done with Domino's luck ability?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
They're not the same.

Or at least, if you can show how many of his fights (without context, PIS, speedy opponents etc) Superman gets tagged in, then we can say 'the majority of his fights has Superman getting tagged'.

Because at the moment, people are taking a pool of appearances, and disregarding some major factors.

Remember Equus

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

So what has [Weapon H] done with Domino's luck ability?

Used it to deflect machine gun fire from those relatively thin-looking claws of his and deflect it directly back to her, for starters, something that doesn't seem probable even with someone of Wolverine's skill and experience level under normal conditions. (Note that Domino's own power would enable HER to then escape her rebounded ricochets.)

It also seems to have enabled him to take a direct shot to the pupil of his eye without injury. I'll suppose it's possible he's just THAT durable, though.

It's worth noting, backing up that point about him being a strategist made earlier, that Weapon H took out the members of Domino's team in order of threat level and spared her from lasting injury:

He’s more just holding the claws up and not moving them. There are several bullets are actually going through the gap in the class and hitting his face and eye

A cluster machine gun fire would naturally hit the claws and him. Which it did. Not really a speed feat unless I’m missing something?

Originally posted by Galan007
We could certainly better-define/clarify what 'in character' actually means in the forum rules(I'd be happy to do so), but imo, there has to be a point where simple logic/reason comes into play -- especially for a character as intelligent and battle-savvy as Superman.

Speed is among the most rudimentary abilities in a character's arsenal, and Superman has a well-documented history of superspeed usage. Therefore, once Superman figured out whether or not WH's claws pose a legitimate threat to him(which could be deduced via a quick molecular scan, even IF he goes into this battle without any knowledge of WH's abilities), then logic dictates that Supes would at least use *enough* speed to dodge WH's attacks in order to avoid getting killed. I mean, even if we don't want to allow a character to use the full breadth of their superspeed offensively in a forum battle, then surely they should be able to use just enough of that speed defensively to protect themselves, no? I'm sure everyone can agree that most characters are intended to go into a forum battle with the basic will to live, right?

IOW, if character A can dodge bullets, and character B points a gun at them and pulls the trigger, would we not assume that character A will dodge the bullets in a forum battle if they have done so in the past? Again, that much just comes down to instinctual self-preservation, imo. /shrug

i explained the way i thought the battle would go down, and it def involves superman using his speed in varying degrees. in future matches, i think it would also be dependent on WHO he battles and his knowledge of them. for example, we could argue the statue-level speed were he knowingly facing zoom, for example.

the funny thing is no one has even given a definitive opinion on whether wh COULD cut him. do we assume he could? i wasn't 100% sure tbh. what non-magical weapon (ie--something just really sharp) has actually cut superman? not many of them, that's for sure....

we also don't really know just how strong wh can get. since it's chulk, he'd be capped at chulk's feats for purposes of the thread. then we'd need to see some of the luck feats from domino. superman would quickly start to understand just how big a threat wh is, but he'd also know wh isn't out to kill him and that might play a factor as well. it is in character for superman to hold back. it's been shown many times. so how much would he hold back and how long? enough to cost him a win, even by luck?

anyway, regarding your willingness to add a rule--thanks. 👆 we might have to open the discussion to the forum and define it.

i don't think your concerns run contrary to mine. in a comic, superman doesn't go in with a death wish. he just usually mitigates the use of his powers--but again that would be dependent on the threat. for example--he was facing black adam and before the battle even started he stated he knew he didn't have to hold back. in character to me simply means we use comics (regardless of what we irl might find illogical) to determine the characters' most likely courses of action in a forum battle. not sure if that's something you'd agree with or not. we could refine it, get pr and bada to chime in. even open a thread to discuss and get others' input maybe. i'm sort of excited to see something like it added. it would make putting flash (among others) in a match something WORTH discussing again. at least imo. 👆

and of course if it doesn't work out, the rule could always be taken out again. /shrug

No, he's not capped at Chulk's levels.

Ridiculous to assume so.

Read a comic, leo.

But you don't need luck to do it...X-23 who has even smaller claws has done it before.

Our Gamma Father, which art in The Down Below,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in Hell.
Give us this day our daily rage.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we never forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us into temptation,
But deliver us to evil.
For thine is The Green Door,
The infinite power, and the glory,
For ever and ever.
All men.

Problem with Supes is, he loves getting destroyed in hth.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Or at least, if you can show how many of his fights (without context, PIS, speedy opponents etc) Superman gets tagged in, then we can say 'the majority of his fights has Superman getting tagged'.

Because at the moment, people are taking a pool of appearances, and disregarding some major factors.

I got a better idea. show me the reverse. 😛

Originally posted by -K-M-
He’s more just holding the claws up and not moving them. There are several bullets are actually going through the gap in the class and hitting his face and eye

A cluster machine gun fire would naturally hit the claws and him. Which it did. Not really a speed feat unless I’m missing something?

What the scan is saying is that even at his highest luck levels, despite having everyone's speed stacked on top of each other, with Domino's luck etc..... bullets are still too fast for Weapon H.

Someone better not bring up what speeding items Superman is faster than....

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
ughh...
too much work.

I got a better idea. show me the reverse. 😛

Well no, because I am arguing full capacity.

You want to argue that the majority of his showings are applicable to a forum fight, prove it.

Why wouldn't it be though?

Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldn't it be though?

Because we have to discount many of them as being inapplicable.

1. His opponent is just that fast (inapplicable here because we don't know how fast Weapon H is).

2. PIS (not all of them, obviously, but every character has PIS showings). Inapplicable as PIS is inadmissible...So the Batman fights for example.

3. Contextual fights (he's trying to talk them down, fighting his friends, whatever). Inapplicable here because he's in this fight to win, he's not fighting a friend, there are no civilians around, whatever.

Once you remove all fights with the above three criteria....Can one still say he gets tagged in the majority of them? If so, prove it.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No, he's not capped at Chulk's levels.

Ridiculous to assume so.

Read a comic, leo.

huh? he was created using cho's blood. how do you figure he shouldn't be limited to chulk's showings....?