Endless vs Marvel Abstracts

the concept of higher plane doesn't auto-translate to overall power though. just because the cosmologies are set up differently, doesn't mean that a higher plane entity in dc>top of the marvel food chain. at all.

take the highest incarnation of death in marvel--maybe the multiversal embodiment--and that level of death (or whatever) would equate to dc's death--both are supreme within their purview, and in a neutral setting they would/should be seen as equals.

and suggesting that the dark multiverse=the entire marvel omniverse makes no sense either....

Pretty much.

Like i said in my now non-existent post, in terms of cosmology everything one posts for DC can also be found in Marvel (literally scan for scan). And vice versa. Lowballing one company to make the other one look better is a tactic we're all too familiar with. And two can play this game.

👆

Originally posted by leonidas
the concept of higher plane doesn't auto-translate to overall power though. just because the cosmologies are set up differently, doesn't mean that a higher plane entity in dc>top of the marvel food chain. at all.

take the highest incarnation of death in marvel--maybe the multiversal embodiment--and that level of death (or whatever) would equate to dc's death--both are supreme within their purview, and in a neutral setting they would/should be seen as equals.

and suggesting that the dark multiverse=the entire marvel omniverse makes no sense either....

DC Death is far superior to marvel Death.

Also being bigger than an entire dimension or multiverse DO relate to power, that's how Beyonder was so powerful and Darkseid nearly destroyed the multiverse by just falling. This is false equivalency at best.

that's why i used the multiversal level of marvel's death as a possible example. my point was that at the highest levels of each, both should be seen as equals. i'm not interested in playing my supreme being>your supreme being.

and at times higher dimensions can be equated with higher power levels. i said it doesn't auto-translate. mxy is pretty unequivocally considered the most powerful being in dc (minus an extreme few) and yet there are several dimensions beyond the fifth which mxy has been able to affect effortlessly. though iirc mxy's uncle (?) has been shown to be more powerful than mxy as well. whatever. my point stands. hell, a 'lowly' 3d being--superman--punched out a 6th dimensional wf last month.... like i said, it doesn't automatically follow as regards higher dimensions and personal power.

Death is a function of Multi-Eternity- who is multiversal space time continuum.

Death of the Endless on the other hand has a claim on Destiny of the Endless, who contains all of multiversal space time continuum in his book. including platonic realms. that's something Marvel doesn't have.

So like I said, competely different leagues

that....doesn't mean much. using terms like "platonic realms" sounds cool and all, but all batman was saying was that the new gods were conceptual beings (something not consistently shown to be the case, btw.) but conceptual entities exist in marvel, obviously, so they have their own platonic/achetypal beings and they have their own realm--overspace. also, in an old what if we see one version of death claim eternity after korvac destroys it. apparently death in marvel can also lay claim to platonic entities.... death has worked against 'life' in the past in an effort to claim the universe. that's hardly anything new nor does it set dc's death apart. though dc's death is way cooler.

death was also just an example. like i said earlier--i'm not interested in playing my supreme being>your supreme being. at the very highest levels, there really is no reason not to view them as relative equals. /shrug

the dc infinite universes exist as infinitesimal bubbles in new genesis.

dream realm is the same dimensional plane as genesis

the infinite universes are dust in relation to the endless

above the sphere of god is limbo, a realm where time doesn't exist, a non material higher dimension

furthermore, destiny of the endless is above the monitor realm on the map

monitor realm view the prime dc multiverse as germ

and destiny is above that

the endless are not killable, you kill morpheus you, dream doesn't die, he's replaced by daniel, endless avatars to choose from, different incarnations

red king was able to destroy endless universes with just a fraction of dream's power

Originally posted by leonidas
that's why i used the multiversal level of marvel's death as a possible example. my point was that at the highest levels of each, both should be seen as equals. i'm not interested in playing my supreme being>your supreme being.

There's no multiversal Death in marvel. I'm not either but not every character needs to be equaled in DC and Marvel.

and at times higher dimensions can be equated with higher power levels. i said it doesn't auto-translate. mxy is pretty unequivocally considered the most powerful being in dc (minus an extreme few) and yet there are several dimensions beyond the fifth which mxy has been able to affect effortlessly. though iirc mxy's uncle (?) has been shown to be more powerful than mxy as well. whatever. my point stands. hell, a 'lowly' 3d being--superman--punched out a 6th dimensional wf last month.... like i said, it doesn't automatically follow as regards higher dimensions and personal power.

Both are exception to the rule instead of being the rule.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also being bigger than an entire dimension or multiverse DO relate to power, that's how Beyonder was so powerful and Darkseid nearly destroyed the multiverse by just falling. This is false equivalency at best.

When Marvel is bigger, it matters. See: Beyonder, any event saying "Universe" refers to "Multiverse/Omniverse" [*cough*Thanos*cough*], any discussion when DC was supposedly only one Universe/52 Universes, etc.

When DC's cosmology makes the entirety of Marvel seem like a 'drop in the ocean' [😉] in size, it's back to "it's all the same, no matter what!".

Originally posted by Philosophía
Nah, bro.

When Marvel is bigger, it matters. See: Beyonder, any event saying "Universe" refers to "Multiverse/Omniverse" [*cough*Thanos*cough*], any discussion when DC was supposedly only one Universe/52 Universes, etc.

When DC's cosmology makes the entirety of Marvel seem like a 'drop in the ocean' [😉] in size, it's back to "it's all the same, no matter what!".

But hey, it's totally unfair to marvel characters if we do the same for DC characters.

Meanwhile, The One Above All is not Omnipotent, the Living Tribunal's power is dependent on the state of the prime Multiverse, to the point where he can get trashed by lower abstracts in those circumstances, the IG is specifically only working in its own Universe, etc.

Funny how things change.

LT has got to be the most overrated character ever, he only has statements going on for decades and jobbed against pretty much everything.

Posters here made fun of Spectre who actually has feats for him.

😂

...then he disappears when people call him on his bs.

but if you don't agree with him you're automatically a troll lol. So sad

Originally posted by abhilegend
There's no multiversal Death in marvel. I'm not either but not every character needs to be equaled in DC and Marvel.

Both are exception to the rule instead of being the rule.

as i said, i was just using death as an example--marvel doesn't really have a known equivalent to vertigo death (though that marvel parody seems to indicate that marvel would be happy to say vertigo death also rules death in marvel--i'd be very cool with that....) if we assume a multi-eternity though, then the other pillars likely exist as well. my point was though that at the highest levels the entities (like ultimate supreme beings) are relatively equivalent imo. 👆

and maybe they are exceptions, but they prove my point. in marvel it's the same--higher dimensional beings lose to lower ones who aren't as powerful as beings below them. how many times in marvel or dc has a 'god' or 'new god' been whipped down by a random earth hero? each time that happens, a lower level being defeats a higher one whether they originate from the fourth world or the sphere of the gods. it's no where near as rare as you think it is, imo, or maybe you just don't think the 4th world is a higher dimensional plane than the earth universe is? what difference does it really make if the 4th world is bigger than dc's earth universe if earth heroes can beat down 4th worlders?

@mrmind--you do like your list of scales, eh? lol. scale is irrelevant when you have lower dimensional beings beating higher dimensional ones. again, scale doesn't necessarily translate to power. in marvel, pym grew large enough to reach the 16th dimensional overspace, the realm that exists beyond the multiverse, but i don't think anyone is calling pym a supreme being--aside from scientist supreme. 👆

@phil--not really a fair shot. in the latest jl arc the terms universe, world and multiverse were used with complete and almost random abandon. the witch mark arc also made a mess of terminology talking about magic on EARTH, then skipping around to dimension, universe and multiverse--all seemingly used interchangeably. terminology has ALWAYS been grossly mishandled by both companies. masters and abhi have been wrangling over terminology in several threads. sides choose and highlight the terminology that best suits their needs.....

regardless, i find comparing 'infinities' is a useless exercise. how big is overspace? underspace? the realm of the one below all? the realm of the one above all? bigger than the beyond realm? no idea. just because a caption doesn't say 'this realm is this many times bigger than this realm!' doesn't mean everything in marvel is small. i mean, really?

i don't believe i have ever been of any opinion other than the one that says dc/marvel are relatively the same 'size' throughout their existences--though i don't ever really recall having this level of discussion about it. i mean if we're comparing, do we factor into the marvel side the countless MULTIVERSES that make it up and that interact directly from time to time with marvel's mainstream multiverse? i mean you're factoring in the dark multiverse so i guess we should include the countless multiverses for marvel, and the megaverses beyond those? and how big is a megaverse? are the other multiverses in marvel bigger than the mainstream one? i sure as hell don't know. and the realm of overspace--does it surround all those megaverses? or the beyond realm? the realm where the infinites exist which appears to be beyond the multiverse as well (if we view eternity as a multiverse)?

the exercise becomes absurd imo. you want to say dc is bigger? 👆
i....really don't care. my only issue is with being TOLD it's bigger, like if you don't believe it you're an idiot as though it were some simple, abc comparison. it's not. at all, and never has been.

not sure why the issue of which is bigger really means anything anyway when lower dimensional beings beat higher dimensional ones all the time in BOTH companies.

Originally posted by leonidas
as i said, i was just using death as an example--marvel doesn't really have a known equivalent to vertigo death (though that marvel parody seems to indicate that marvel would be happy to say vertigo death also rules death in marvel--i'd be very cool with that....) if we assume a multi-eternity though, then the other pillars likely exist as well. my point was though that at the highest levels the entities (like ultimate supreme beings) are relatively equivalent imo. 👆

and maybe they are exceptions, but they prove my point. in marvel it's the same--higher dimensional beings lose to lower ones who aren't as powerful as beings below them. how many times in marvel or dc has a 'god' or 'new god' been whipped down by a random earth hero? each time that happens, a lower level being defeats a higher one whether they originate from the fourth world or the sphere of the gods. it's no where near as rare as you think it is, imo, or maybe you just don't think the 4th world is a higher dimensional plane than the earth universe is? what difference does it really make if the 4th world is bigger than dc's earth universe if earth heroes can beat down 4th worlders?

@mrmind--you do like your list of scales, eh? lol. scale is irrelevant when you have lower dimensional beings beating higher dimensional ones. again, scale doesn't necessarily translate to power. in marvel, pym grew large enough to reach the 16th dimensional overspace, the realm that exists beyond the multiverse, but i don't think anyone is calling pym a supreme being--aside from scientist supreme. 👆

@phil--not really a fair shot. in the latest jl arc the terms universe, world and multiverse were used with complete and almost random abandon. the witch mark arc also made a mess of terminology talking about magic on EARTH, then skipping around to dimension, universe and multiverse--all seemingly used interchangeably. terminology has ALWAYS been grossly mishandled by both companies. masters and abhi have been wrangling over terminology in several threads. sides choose and highlight the terminology that best suits their needs.....

regardless, i find comparing 'infinities' is a useless exercise. how big is overspace? underspace? the realm of the one below all? the realm of the one above all? bigger than the beyond realm? no idea. just because a caption doesn't say 'this realm is this many times bigger than this realm!' doesn't mean everything in marvel is small. i mean, really?

i don't believe i have ever been of any opinion other than the one that says dc/marvel are relatively the same 'size' throughout their existences--though i don't ever really recall having this level of discussion about it. i mean if we're comparing, do we factor into the marvel side the countless MULTIVERSES that make it up and that interact directly from time to time with marvel's mainstream multiverse? i mean you're factoring in the dark multiverse so i guess we should include the countless multiverses for marvel, and the megaverses beyond those? and how big is a megaverse? are the other multiverses in marvel bigger than the mainstream one? i sure as hell don't know. and the realm of overspace--does it surround all those megaverses? or the beyond realm? the realm where the infinites exist which appears to be beyond the multiverse as well (if we view eternity as a multiverse)?

the exercise becomes absurd imo. you want to say dc is bigger? 👆
i....really don't care. my only issue is with being TOLD it's bigger, like if you don't believe it you're an idiot as though it were some simple, abc comparison. it's not. at all, and never has been.

not sure why the issue of which is bigger really means anything anyway when lower dimensional beings beat higher dimensional ones all the time in BOTH companies.

DC is bigger 👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
DC is bigger 👆

tl;dr. 👆

regardless, i find comparing 'infinities' is a useless exercise. how big is overspace? underspace? the realm of the one below all? the realm of the one above all? bigger than the beyond realm? no idea. just because a caption doesn't say 'this realm is this many times bigger than this realm!' doesn't mean everything in marvel is small. i mean, really?

Nobody is saying Marvel is small. They're saying it's smaller

They're showing evidence of how big DC is, and, as a a consequence of presented arguments, bigger than Marvel. A lot bigger.

---

x = marvel cosmology posters
y = dc cosmology posters

It's like a guy Y coming and telling guy X he can bench-press more than him, then proceeding to do so with 1000 lbs.

X has never benched more than 200 lbs in actual real life canon, but frustrated X just says to him "How much I can press? you mean how BIG MY pectorals are? WHY....ARE YOU SAYING YOUR PECTORALS ARE BIGGER THAN MINE?! We are all the same, equivalent bench pressing #OneHumanity"

It's a lazy way to mask the actual problem - lack of arguments/muscle - behind a "I don't need arguments, so I'll just say it's the same because it's convenient right now". Asking "how big is Realm X in Marvel? WE MAY NEVER KNOW! So we don't know ANYTHING" is not an actual argument. It's the opposite of an argument.

The burden of proof/lifting is on X. Always. Because that's how argumentation works.

@phil--oh, i get WHY you're saying it, and....there really is NOT a SPECIFIC argument against it for the marvel side, but that's because the set ups are so different. dc's set up is ordered--now--and it seems to be an order followed by most of the writers. we have direct statements comparing relative sizes of dimensions.

marvel does NOT organize things like that, so since they don't directly state--x dimension is y times larger than x, do we simply assume x and y are....small? or large? marvel--like dc--has seemingly endless dimensions or 'infinite' size. i'm just not sure when dealing with infinite infinities we can say with any sort of certainty that one is bigger or smaller than the other. shrug

i made a thread about the brothers and even (at the time) marvel and dc seemed to believe the companies were relatively the same in regards to size and scope, as was made apparent by the equality of the brothers. if they feel that way (and i'd be surprised if they still didn't) i don't think it's unreasonable to see the companies STILL as relative equals in that regard.

Well, that's the thing - if we don't have explicit arguments on the Marvel side, then they simply can't match the size of current DC. I completely understand your 'fairness' position in a vacuum - but if people really want to argue one way or another, they have to bring arguments. Or they could simply...not argue.

We agree that the infinite pre-Crisis Multiverse was bigger than the pre-ZH post-Crisis Universe. We agree that current DC is bigger than the infinite pre-Crisis Multiverse. We agree that the Beyonder realm was millions of times bigger than the pre-Retcon Marvel infinite Multiverse. We agree on comparing a lot of infinities with clear delimitations on which one is bigger than the other.

But when it comes to comparing inter-company, well...

I mean, of course, I get it. But still.

DC fans have been slammed over the head for the last....15 years? On how big Beyonder is? How big Marvel is? How many levels of infinity there are? [as I said...I'm not talking about you]. Suddenly, there's things in DC that makes the Beyonder/Marvel like a speck themselves comparatively.

Surely, you've seen all of this and you understand why they do this when the tables turn.