the difference is
Marvel Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses
DC Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses + different levels of existence to reach archetypal infinity
the higher dimension planes of beings in DC look at the main multiverse, like us real life human beings looking at comic book characters, if that makes sense
that's why monitor's realm has manisfestation of narration and meta thought forms.
So limbo, gods sphere, 4th and 5th dimension completely dwarf the entirety of marvel including the beyond realm, right?
Correction, IN MY OPINION I said the god sphere or dark multiverse are comparable to the beyond ream. if you compare these statements
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3344482-beyond-realm.jpg
any higher dimensions in DC should be larger. and we both know, the outer side of the dc multiverse map, the bigger the realm.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the macroverse is stated to be "a level above" 616 universe. sure its larger in scale then 616 but that definitely doesnt mean it scales infinitely beyond marvels entire 3d infinity
Basically like wonderworld in dc
the scale and perception starts to alter from wonderworld, and goes from there
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the macroverse is stated to be "a level above" 616 universe. sure its larger in scale then 616 but that definitely doesnt mean it scales infinitely beyond marvels entire 3d infinity
And no one said it does. The key term you're missing is ad infinitum. There are realms within realms within ... you get the idea. All the way till infinity. Macroverse (mainstream universes) are just one level of this infinite hierarchy.
Originally posted by MrMind
the difference isMarvel Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses
DC Structure: infinite universes/timelines/multiverses + different levels of existence to reach archetypal infinitythe higher dimension planes of beings in DC look at the main multiverse, like us real life human beings looking at comic book characters, if that makes sense
that's why monitor's realm has manisfestation of narration and meta thought forms.
Well.. you're wrong. I already said (and scans were posted) that Marvel has infinite dimensional structure.
https://postimg.cc/9zJs9m1y
https://postimg.cc/sQ30Bqhn
https://postimg.cc/DmjYZCyg
These scans which i referenced (Dr Strange 21) and alberto posted exactly satisfy your criterion of infinite levels of existence. You need to take a step back and read the scans carefully.
1) imagine a 2D plane. X-Y plane.
2) in the center of this (actually center-less) plane (since it extends to infinity in all directions) put the infinite 3-D universes of the multiverse. So you can visualize it as infinite points on y = 0 line (so an infinite line).
3) as you go outward (so above or below y=0, say y=1) you encounter universes with spatial dimensions higher than 3rd. Now those between roughly 0. something and 6. something are clustered together in a group, but there are infinite other groups (the plane extends infinitely outward). As you go outward these dimensions are higher spatial dimensions which humans can't conceive of.
Originally posted by MrMindCorrection, IN MY OPINION I said the god sphere or dark multiverse are comparable to the beyond ream. if you compare these statements
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125547/3344482-beyond-realm.jpg
any higher dimensions in DC should be larger. and we both know, the outer side of the dc multiverse map, the bigger the realm.
Except... these are not the only scans we're all referring to. There's an FF annual which shows that the LT safeguards all multiverses. And yet all that is literally dwarfed by the beyond realm. But as ive pointed out, marvel has other structures similar to it.
Originally posted by operator616thats where the argument would have definitely gone. nipped it in the buds before that happened
And no one said it does.
Originally posted by operator616mrmind was talking about scale as you move upwards in dc's dimensions i think. these scans do not adress scale at all. they just mention that marvel has infinite universes and realms (like dc does) which no one was questioning
[BWell.. you're wrong. I already said (and scans were posted) that Marvel has infinite dimensional structure.https://postimg.cc/9zJs9m1y
https://postimg.cc/sQ30Bqhn
https://postimg.cc/DmjYZCygThese scans which i referenced (Dr Strange 21) and alberto posted exactly satisfy your criterion of infinite levels of existence. You need to take a step back and read the scans carefully.
1) imagine a 2D plane. X-Y plane.
2) in the center of this (actually center-less) plane (since it extends to infinity in all directions) put the infinite 3-D universes of the multiverse. So you can visualize it as infinite points on y = 0 line (so an infinite line).
3) as you go outward (so above or below y=0, say y=1) you encounter universes with spatial dimensions higher than 3rd. Now those between roughly 0. something and 6. something are clustered together in a group, but there are infinite other groups (the plane extends infinitely outward). As you go outward these dimensions are higher spatial dimensions which humans can't conceive of.[/B]
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
thats where the argument would have definitely gone. nipped it in the buds before that happened
You simply misinterpreted the scene. That's what happened.
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
mrmind was talking about scale as you move upwards in dc's dimensions i think. these scans do not adress scale at all. they just mention that marvel has infinite universes and realms which no one was questioning
Could you please read my post before you reply? This was exactly what i was talking about. I wasn't talking about infinite universes obviously, i was talking about how you have infinite levels/dimensions above the regular 3d ones.
dont be a cocky dickhead. i didn't misinterpret anything. i just added more info about the macroverse because now we know it is only "A level above" the 616 universe.....which wasnt mentioned in the scans you posted.
right but mrmind was talking about scale. your scans dont address scale so theyre irrevelent and dont disprove the point he was making.
say the dumbass who posted this when he was WRONG lol-
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I'm gonna be straight forward with you. I don't really care what you think he did, or anything YOU say really. You ride other people wave and consistently lowball marvel to get an argument on purpose. do that with carver, not me
now get back in your cage you punk👆
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
dont be a cocky dickhead. i didn't misinterpret anything. i just added more info about the macroverse because now we know it is only "A level above" the 616 universe.....which wasnt mentioned in the scans you posted.right but mrmind was talking about scale. your scans dont address scale so theyre irrevelent and dont disprove the point he was making.
Really? then go ahead and quote where i said that. All i said about the macroverse is that it played the role of the multiverse in that story and there were infinite realms above it. Stop blatantly misquoting me.
I only have one request here - for us to not split this into more quotes. It's a pain in the ass and it makes it really hard to get perspective on anything.
Originally posted by operator616We are talking about the initial pre-retcon Beyonder realm? If so, I'm undecided where to liken it in size to the Fourth World or the Dark Multiverse.
And just so we're clear you completely agree with Mr Mind's argument correct? So limbo, gods sphere, 4th and 5th dimension completely dwarf the entirety of marvel including the beyond realm, right?
Originally posted by operator616I edited my post so as to not seem as rude - but you're kind of missing the point of discussion. I'm asking you to show me, in Marvel, something akin to the Fourth World, from where Darkseid falling casts a show on the mainstream Multiverse and all mortal Universes [including the mainstream Earth 616 or whatever designation it is not] exists in bubbles. I'm not asking you to show me pocket dimensions, sub-atomic dimensions, microverses, or anything of the kind. Our starting point, for scale, is, for the lack of a better word - a normal Universe.
It seems you failed to follow the discussion because nowhere did i ever mention pocket universes. I was merely claiming that Marvel has an instance similar to that New Gods arc. Anyway here is Dr Strange going to a realm where each atom is a fully fledged universe:https://imgur.com/2e58c0fc-021c-4835-a000-2f46ae87350c
https://imgur.com/d21644aa-355e-4bbe-ab26-bfc5ef699475Also im assuming you're aware of the size of the beyond realm?
I'm not about to bring Doctor Fate's Universe in a helmet helmet or any of that stuff. I mean...congrats about the atomic Universes Dr. Strange visited....? What can I say. Here's Ray Palmer going to a sub-atomic Universe, too:
https://imgur.com/a/315LpeM
I.... don't know what you think I'm arguing. The number of 'niche' Universes each one has? No, I'm talking about scale, size.
Originally posted by operator616I'm sorry in advance to do this to you, operator, since you seem like a nice guy.
Great feat for Darkseid. Personally i was always under the impression that it referred to his essence as dying and dragging the multiverse with him, not actually literally falling on the multiverse. But it's open to interpretation i guess. Morrison did seem to turn the New Gods to living concepts.Anyway, here's the scan from surfer's run: Basicaly the idea is that Surfer's universe (616) and other all mainstream universes (referred to as the "macroverse" in this story arc) exist inside a bigger universe which in turn exists within a bigger one, ad infinitum (so infinite layers above)
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NF2ZQHVZLDc/VoTbjsoLz0I/AAAAAAAAUSQ/N2OSXdR8-Eo/s1600-Ic42/RCO018.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nx8f_HDNWpo/VoTbj9sKfpI/AAAAAAAAUSQ/NvcczoF8IRY/s1600-Ic42/RCO019.jpgAlso Dematteis followed up on that idea in Defenders i believe.
Re-read the arc. The Macroverse was playing the role of the multiverse in that arc. It's because the microverse was featured as well, so Dematteis wanted to differentiate between levels of reality. Where the macroverse meant the collection of regular sized universes. While the microverse was the small scale universe. And yet there were infinitely higher universes than the macroverse
But...you're wrong. *shrug*
This was revamped and expanded further on by Reed Richards. The Macroverse does not contain the mainstream Universe, it's simply a [bigger scale] Universe that is accessed by growing to the point where planet/suns there are miniature:
For emphasis:
Furthermore, DeMatteis entire work is about consciousness, dreams and thoughts forming Universes, who in turn form other Universes from the people's thoughts and forms -- it's a poetical way of saying that every dream creates another Universe, and those dream of another one and so on, as he's literally stated in Spectre, too:
http://i.imgur.com/2mfCSKl.jpg
And again:
https://i.imgur.com/nlHeckj.jpg
So....yeah. Sorry.
If you want, I can send you the issues and we'll talk afterwards.
Originally posted by operator616Oh, I was referring to the latest Metaverse in Doomsday Clock - which is Meta, but not quite "Mxy punches photos of writers and has the power of actual retcons" metas, since that gets us nowhere.
The metaverse in DC was previously featured in a superman story where it contained every possibility, that's what i was referring to not the new one which you're referring to. But Marvel has all kinds of diversity, it had something called the "ideaverse" in deadpool comics a few years back.
Originally posted by operator616👆
Fair enough.
We are talking about the initial pre-retcon Beyonder realm? If so, I'm undecided where to liken it in size to the Fourth World or the Dark Multiverse.I edited my post so as to not seem as rude - but you're kind of missing the point of discussion. I'm asking you to show me, in Marvel, something akin to the Fourth World, from where Darkseid falling casts a show on the mainstream Multiverse and all mortal Universes [including the mainstream Earth 616 or whatever designation it is not] exists in bubbles. I'm not asking you to show me pocket dimensions, sub-atomic dimensions, microverses, or anything of the kind. Our starting point, for scale, is, for the lack of a better word - a normal Universe.
I'm not about to bring Doctor Fate's Universe in a helmet helmet or any of that stuff. I mean...congrats about the atomic Universes Dr. Strange visited....? What can I say. Here's Ray Palmer going to a sub-atomic Universe, too:
https://imgur.com/a/315LpeMI.... don't know what you think I'm arguing. The number of 'niche' Universes each one has? No, I'm talking about scale, size.
But again, who told you that Strange was in a microverse? He entered a very strange realm (where time has spatial existence) and from that scale regular fully fledged universes seemed like small droplets inside it. That is exactly what that scene says. That is how i interpreted that scene and that's why i likened it to the New Gods instance. Im definitely not talking about any pockets or sub atomic realms. But i can see why i might have come across that way.
Btw, even post retcon Beyond realm made Eternity look insignificant.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2964576-ffann023_63.jpg
It didn't seem to change even after the retcon. Recently it's been mentioned to exist outside the omniverse as well.
I'm sorry in advance to do this to you, operator, since you seem like a nice guy.But...you're wrong. *shrug*
This was revamped and expanded further on by Reed Richards. The Macroverse does not contain the mainstream Universe, it's simply a [bigger scale] Universe that is accessed by growing to the point where planet/suns there are miniature:
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/41389255/WgDyjsA.jpg.html
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/41389256/EE1DXLs.jpg.html
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/41389257/6JSaKYX.jpg.htmlFor emphasis:
https://i.imgur.com/VVhkwm3.png
https://i.imgur.com/S3t5Id4.pngFurthermore, DeMatteis entire work is about consciousness, dreams and thoughts forming Universes, who in turn form other Universes from the people's thoughts and forms -- it's a poetical way of saying that every dream creates another Universe, and those dream of another one and so on, as he's literally stated in Spectre, too:
http://i.imgur.com/2mfCSKl.jpg
And again:
https://i.imgur.com/nlHeckj.jpgSo....yeah. Sorry.
If you want, I can send you the issues and we'll talk afterwards.
Eh... im not surprised in the slightest, tbh. You have to realize that different writers use the same terminology to mean different things. There are some unambiguous terms like multiverse, universe which have a clear cut meaning and everyone agrees upon. The macroverse on the other hand? It's open to interpretation and hence different writers use them differently. Just like Ewing uses omniverse differently from how Kaminski and others use it. Case in point: In mighty avengers hank pym was referred to try and breaking (and he later succeeded) the barriers of the "macroverse": https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VoMdLZ8ITDCZZpgp1HzLEJUPGXympQJ6wKwflw_2OGreE9s_pbu4wiaTC-a14r_2RIvt4U8kayIVQw=s1600
The barriers that he broke were those of regular 616 universe. In this particular story macroverse referred to the regular mainstream universe. This is another instance where the writer was just paralleling how the regular universe was "macro" compared to the microverse which was also featured in that story.
So how do we interpret the macroverse in the surfer story? context. If you read carefully the surfer story you'll notice how the macroverse literally contained surfer's universe. But anyway this should seal the deal:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LtrWGJWVJS4/VoTbvLasB6I/AAAAAAAAUXM/BClBppoM1Fg/s1600-Ic42/RCO003.jpg
"the macroverse.....a universe so large it contained several universes within it"
Could we agree now that it's used differently in this story? In yours, it seems to be planet/sun level of existence. Here it's clearly used as a multiversal level of existence (it's actually meant to represent the whole multiverse or at least that's what i got from the story). I really urge you to look carefully through the issues again, i think you might be missing some important details.
And i actually know about the style of Dematteis' writing, i followed him closely for a while. I agree that sometimes he can speak about those "dream" universes in a metaphorical way but again: i look at the context. In the surfer arc i legitimately concluded that he wasn't playing around.
It doesn't matter because phil was arguing that it doesn't contain any universes but simply makes suns/planets look tiny. This is true in the story he posted from. But as i said: Writers use same terminology to mean different things. And in the surfer arc it most certainly contained universes. That's the point. Seriously deadpool are you reading the posts?
I would actually say that it actually meant infinite because that's heavily implied in the story (tenebrae's statements) but that's not even the point im arguing.
Well.. you're wrong. I already said (and scans were posted) that Marvel has infinite dimensional structure.https://postimg.cc/9zJs9m1y
https://postimg.cc/sQ30Bqhn
https://postimg.cc/DmjYZCygThese scans which i referenced (Dr Strange 21) and alberto posted exactly satisfy your criterion of infinite levels of existence. You need to take a step back and read the scans carefully.
I have, it’s just that they are so unimpressive no point to even bother. The doctor strange transmultiversal scan have been posted too many times to count…and it’s the best marvel has to offer
Remember how we get fixated on the size beyond realm/dark multiverse/fourth world? Show me a realm that is infinitely bigger than the beyond realm. I can show you dimension that’s infinity x infinity x infinity bigger than the new genesis.
Primal Monitor view the entire DC OMNIVERSE as a germ! The judges of the source are far beyond the dc omniverse as well. Tell me, who in marvel is far beyond the marvel omniverse. TOAA is not truly omnipotent anymore, so who else is out there?
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6897150-7945142878-pade1.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80518/6897151-5969788146-DkPYy.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/8/80518/6897152-8482684690-4wfTl.jpg
Under over-monitor and the judges of the source, lies the sixth dimension, that spawns birth and death of infinite multiverses, perpetua’s creation is just one of infinite multiverses, perpetua’s creation alone consist of infinite universes/hypertime (all alternative timelines there ever were) /higher dimensions/monitors realm etc. now do you see how far of a distance and layers 3rd dimensional multiverse is compare to the greater DC omniverse?
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80518/6897145-4420890037-apQCg.jpg
https://imgur.com/peLPCkH
under that it’s the 5th dimension. which is the freaking imagination, exist outside of time, it’s everything at once, existing backward and forward, simultaneously
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6897147-6719077381-COyjI.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6897148-4406389583-SEDTg.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/6897149-5370180526-z0b6m.jpg
Keep in mind these are dimensions so grand and meta, they do not appear on the map of the multiverse.
what is marvel’s equivalent to,
Primal Monitor
6th dimension
5th dimension
4th dimension
Limbo
are these realms in sequence of infinitely larger than the next one?
I don’t want theory, I want specific dimension NAME mentioned explained. Dimensions that can make beyond realm look like quark in comparison.
As you go outward these dimensions are higher spatial dimensions which humans can't conceive of.
And what are the names of these spatial dimensions? scans and detailed explanations on these dimensions? All of DC’s higher dimensions are on display with very detailed structures and explanations
Originally posted by operator616You threw a lot of stuff at me - from fractal dimensions, universe inside bubbles etc. - which, funnily enough, is exactly what your scan shows of Doctor Strange, him entering a psychedelic 'pocket' dimension the size of a beach ball. Creating/visiting pocket/small Universes is something neither company is strange to [excuse the pun]. The problem is that you're getting this backwards - it's not a matter of the 'normal' Universe/characters [in this particular case, Dr. Strange] interacting with smaller [pocket, microverse, the ones in helmets, the ones in hats, the ones in balls heh etc.] Universes/Dimensions. It's a matter of higher dimensions making his Multiverse a speck - as the Fourth World does in DC.
But again, who told you that Strange was in a microverse? He entered a very strange realm (where time has spatial existence) and from that scale regular fully fledged universes seemed like small droplets inside it. That is exactly what that scene says. That is how i interpreted that scene and that's why i likened it to the New Gods instance. Im definitely not talking about any pockets or sub atomic realms. But i can see why i might have come across that way.Btw, even post retcon Beyond realm made Eternity look insignificant.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2964576-ffann023_63.jpg
It didn't seem to change even after the retcon. Recently it's been mentioned to exist outside the omniverse as well.
To put it succinctly - I keep asking you to show me a hand that's as big as a building compared to yours, but you keep showing me yours compared to a miniature building that you built as a hobby.
Originally posted by operator616I understand the frustration but the macroverse - as it is being defined currently, is not what you say it is. Call the Fantastic Four/Spiderman issue a retcon, or a clarification, if you'd like, but it is simply the case that it takes absolute precedence that the Macroverse is simply a 'bigger' Universe than the mainstream one, and it does not contain it - and we see that's the case, as Reed says it and shows it as the reverse of the coin of the microverse - which is what it was in Surfer's story, too [https://imgur.com/a/2VF5ggw]. In the Hank Pym instance he also says that Reed told him how to go through it, also by simply increasing his size [https://imgur.com/a/QcJZH6Q] so that's even further proof.
Eh... im not surprised in the slightest, tbh. You have to realize that different writers use the same terminology to mean different things. There are some unambiguous terms like multiverse, universe which have a clear cut meaning and everyone agrees upon. The macroverse on the other hand? It's open to interpretation and hence different writers use them differently. Just like Ewing uses omniverse differently from how Kaminski and others use it. Case in point: In mighty avengers hank pym was referred to try and breaking (and he later succeeded) the barriers of the "macroverse": https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VoMdLZ8ITDCZZpgp1HzLEJUPGXympQJ6wKwflw_2OGreE9s_pbu4wiaTC-a14r_2RIvt4U8kayIVQw=s1600The barriers that he broke were those of regular 616 universe. In this particular story macroverse referred to the regular mainstream universe. This is another instance where the writer was just paralleling how the regular universe was "macro" compared to the microverse which was also featured in that story.
So how do we interpret the macroverse in the surfer story? context. If you read carefully the surfer story you'll notice how the macroverse literally contained surfer's universe. But anyway this should seal the deal:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LtrWGJWVJS4/VoTbvLasB6I/AAAAAAAAUXM/BClBppoM1Fg/s1600-Ic42/RCO003.jpg
"the macroverse.....a universe so large it contained several universes within it"
Could we agree now that it's used differently in this story? In yours, it seems to be planet/sun level of existence. Here it's clearly used as a multiversal level of existence (it's actually meant to represent the whole multiverse or at least that's what i got from the story). I really urge you to look carefully through the issues again, i think you might be missing some important details.
And i actually know about the style of Dematteis' writing, i followed him closely for a while. I agree that sometimes he can speak about those "dream" universes in a metaphorical way but again: i look at the context. In the surfer arc i legitimately concluded that he wasn't playing around. [/B]
I'd like to entertain going into pre-retcon (x2...lol) territory, because I disagree with your assessment there, too [the 'several' Universes [i.e. not multiverse as you say] seemed to be accessed by some sort of 'wormhole' [which Reed alluded to using similar the first time, before he used the growing method, too], and issue #43's description literally says that the mainstream Universe and the Macroverse are separate: https://imgur.com/a/aS0YaMH - "Breach the zone between the macroverse and our current Universe to get back to Earth", contradicting itself in what it was said in the earlier issue], but we'd be going too much into retcon-fan-fiction, since it's no longer relevant.
As for the later part, it's so blatant when looking at Dematteis' line of work with dreams/Universes what he means, that while I respect your opinion, I'll have to hard disagree with it. I can count on one hand the comic books I've read where he didn't associate dreams/consciousness with creating/shaping worlds.
Unless there's something new here, I'll leave it to agree to disagree on the 4th world/Marvel cosmology. 👆
ya im interested in the scale of things also.
i feel like the only way marvel can even think about scaling equal to dc is if they have a dimension that scales orders of magnitude beyond.....the beyond realm. but if they have nothing larger then the beyond realm then how does marvel even begin to compare to dc in that respect?
Feel like this same discussion about scaling has played out a few different times recently, no?
Both companies have infinite numbered dimensions, no doubt... But aside from Marvel's Beyond Realm(which I do feel is about equal to DC's Monitor Sphere in terms of scale) I still have yet to see any explicit evidence suggesting that Marvel's upper-echelon dimensions scale to the same magnitude as DC's upper-echelon dimensions(ie. those that are above even the Monitor Sphere.) Perhaps Marvel does scale to such a degree and I've just never seen the evidence/scans. If anyone would know it'd be operator, though, so I'm curious what his thoughts are here.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Aside from the fact that those six Multiverses (the First Firmament is a Universe) all existed before the present Eternity chronologically. As in, those Eternities existed long before the present Marvel Universe, continued to exist afterwards the next Multiverse succeeded them.Here is what exists within the Eternity/Multiverse we are familiar with for Marvel:
Universes where the natural laws of nature differ; pocket universes where Gods and demons live; Universes where natural laws range from science to magic, but share concepts; Universes with spatial dimensions measured in "irrational numbers", with Universes with spatial dimensions lower than 2.726(etc) or higher than 6.298(etc) each having their own clusters, each administered to by the Living Tribunal.
So, unless you try to claim that the DC Multiverse somehow encompasses all of the above and more, the scale starts to weigh in favor of the Marvel Multiverse. And with the existence of the other Eternities, there is the possibility that all of them bore similar structures as their youngest brother.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
past multiverses in DC Comics are just the same Multiverse that underwent cosmological changes due to drastic cosmic events, which is why you have entities able to remember the events and worlds of DC all the way back to Pre-Crisis. I.e. all the big "Crisis events" took place within the confines of the Bleed, meaning all the changes to the structure of the Universe/Multiverse were confined to the Bleed during the cross-over events where that happened.There are only "multiple multiverses" in the Bleed now because Convergence's ending resulted in the Anti-Monitor being stopped before he could destroy the original, Pre-Crisis Multiverse, effectively turning every iteration of the DC Universe (those within the Bleed) into one cohesive whole, with each "multiverse" existing in its own grouping within the Bleed.
With the multiple Eternities, on the other hand, it would be as if Relic's Universe still existed, rather than collapsing and dying out completely to make way for the DC Universe as we know it. The Eternities are ancient Multiverse embodiments, each of them predating the modern Marvel Multiverse, each of them still alive.
