Loki vs Immortal Hulk

Originally posted by carver9
But that isnt the argument here though. I get what you're trying to say but that doesnt translate to the forum rules being bias. Speed is a necessary while versatility isnt an option. The argument is, why would a speedster allow an attack to hit when speed is a basic power of theirs. Lol... whereas someone like, SURFER would ya know, blast, or Thor wouldn't use Mjlonir versatility as a first course of action. So, Gladiator gets to utilize his speed but Surfer, who is known to use his versatility consistently will resort to blasting. Versatility to Surfer is just as much a basic ability to him as speed is to Gladiator or Wonder Woman, etc... so why hinder Surfer while making Gladiator or similar characters, whole. Then, this fighting style completely ignores their comic counterpart. An argument can be made for Flash utilizing his speed during combat situations but Gladiator or people like him, on panel showings clash against what the debating style that is being discussed across the forum is asking for. You are either going to debate powerset which excludes ALL comic showings which means, theirs no need in even posting scans, the only thing you need to prove is, they can do it... oooorrrrrr, you provide evidence using comics which shows Gladiator, in character, fighting in a fashion where people like Kalibak could slap him. At the end of the day, there's more evidence that Gladiator and characters like him gets punched by Kalibak like beings vs Thor also using his weapon primarily as a blunt force weapon.

Because versatility is NOT a basic power like speed. By it's very definition, it's not a basic power.

Put it this way. If you see a hand coming to slap you, you instinctively flinch away, right?

A kid would do it. A dog would do it. Hell, even a fly would do the same.

Defensive speed is instinctual. There's literally no conscious thought needed. A hand is coming to slap you in the face, you don't want to get hit, you flinch away.

With versatility? Conscious thought is needed. Hmm, I can do option A, or option B, or C, D, E,F,G etc etc. Option A doesn't work, because he's resisted me before; maybe B; no, C etc etc.

I may know 10,000 different martial art style. But I may use a simple punch more often than not, rather than the somersaulting tornado kicking headbutt as practiced by the praying mantis monks of Rhodesia. THAT'S what Surfer and Thor do. Sure, they have versatility. But more often than not, either because they prefer to go up close and melee (Thor) or because they are.....more comfortable, I guess? (Surfer?) With blasting, that's what they use IN CHARACTER.

With Flash and other speedsters? I mean, we all agree they DON'T want to get hit, right? So they'll use their speed to not get hit. In character. Because its instinctual. Like you flinching when someone goes to slap you.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And power is a big one tbh.

The Atom bomb ended WW2. Wasnt about the speed it reached its target. Not was it about versatility. Just raw destructive power.

Except they developed a delivery system that was contingent on not being caught.

I mean, they hardly delivered it by horse drawn carts, did they?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except they developed a delivery system that was contingent on not being caught.

I mean, they hardly delivered it by horse drawn carts, did they?

Yes but speed wasnt the weapon or the game changer there. Thats the point.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes but speed wasnt the weapon or the game changer there. Thats the point.

To put it another way:

Hulk is like a nuke being carried to its destination by a wagon being pulled by a bicycle.

Superman is like a nuke being carried to its destination by the fastest jets our current technology can allow.

👆. Thanks weeb.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And power is a big one tbh.

The Atom bomb ended WW2. Wasnt about the speed it reached its target. Not was it about versatility. Just raw destructive power.

Exactly.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except they developed a delivery system that was contingent on not being caught.

I mean, they hardly delivered it by horse drawn carts, did they?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because versatility is NOT a basic power like speed. By it's very definition, it's not a basic power.

Put it this way. If you see a hand coming to slap you, you instinctively flinch away, right?

A kid would do it. A dog would do it. Hell, even a fly would do the same.

Defensive speed is instinctual. There's literally no conscious thought needed. A hand is coming to slap you in the face, you don't want to get hit, you flinch away.

With versatility? Conscious thought is needed. Hmm, I can do option A, or option B, or C, D, E,F,G etc etc. Option A doesn't work, because he's resisted me before; maybe B; no, C etc etc.

I may know 10,000 different martial art style. But I may use a simple punch more often than not, rather than the somersaulting tornado kicking headbutt as practiced by the praying mantis monks of Rhodesia. THAT'S what Surfer and Thor do. Sure, they have versatility. But more often than not, either because they prefer to go up close and melee (Thor) or because they are.....more comfortable, I guess? (Surfer?) With blasting, that's what they use IN CHARACTER.

With Flash and other speedsters? I mean, we all agree they DON'T want to get hit, right? So they'll use their speed to not get hit. In character. Because its instinctual. Like you flinching when someone goes to slap you.

What does this have to do with a person NOT using their versatility though. I understand people flinching off instinct but if a person is versatile and they know that they are versatile, why would they resort to blasting? Let's say you're Surfer and you are familiar with all of your abilities and Kalibak is in front of you and you know his intentions are to kill, battle starts, what are you going to do?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nah, the point is that that level of power would be much less effective without the means to quickly carry it to its destination.

To put it another way:

Hulk is like a nuke being carried to its destination by a wagon being pulled by a bicycle.

Superman is like a nuke being carried to its destination by the fastest jets our current technology can allow.

Sure, but the fastest shot bullet in the world is still just a bullet and wont be a nuke level threat on its own.

If a Nuke goes missing, the world would be in panic, and thats solely because of its destructive potential.

Originally posted by carver9
What does this have to do with a person NOT using their versatility though. I understand people flinching off instinct but if a person is versatile and they know that they are versatile, why would they resort to blasting? Let's say you're Surfer and you are familiar with all of your abilities and Kalibak is in front of you and you know his intentions are to kill, battle starts, what are you going to do?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sure, but the fastest shot bullet in the world is still just a bullet and wont be a nuke level threat on its own.

If a Nuke goes missing, the world would be in panic, and thats solely because of its destructive potential.

But against someone who does have either the raw hard-hitting power to wound Hulk or has some hax ability that can phuck with him, the speed difference becomes incredibly important. Much more important than a strength difference would be, because strength alone does nothing to prevent you from being tagged by an ability that ignores conventional defense or helps you actually apply that strength and hit your opponent.

Originally posted by Galan007
Surfer would use his rudimentary abilities(ie. strength, speed, and generic cosmic blasts) first, and then perhaps use the deeper aspect of his versatility as the fight progressed.

To put it another way, Superman or Flash have scans showing them using speed in combat. Has Surfer opened a black hole in his opponent on-panel in a fight?

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's also important to note that his versatility has to be reflected in the fights he's had on-panel.

To put it another way, Superman or Flash have scans showing them using speed in combat. Has Surfer opened a black hole in his opponent on-panel in a fight?

But he has had his board speed blitz them while he did other things, trapped them in cocoons of hardened energy, trapped their weapons inside of force fields, transmuted their weapons, transmuted them directly, teleported them off the battlefield with a wave of his hand, seemingly turned them 2D to trap them inside his board, absorbed their internal energy, thrown their internal energy out of phase, BFRd them through time, traveled to the past to prevent their birth, attacked them on the astral plane because he's even more powerful there, strait up shut off their powers, used blast of light against his opponent because that's what his opponent was most vulnerable to, and whatever else I'm forgetting. Relative to his number of full on fights, he uses his versatility fairly often. As for him waiting until late into the fight, it could be argued that he waits for the same reason that Flash waits to start using his speed effectively... PIS. I mean we know that he doesn't actually like violence so it makes more sense for him to use it early in a forum fight where he's not allowed to just leave the battlefield and he knows there's no chance of talking his opponent down.

Edit

Originally posted by carver9
Why?

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's also important to note that his versatility has to be reflected in the fights he's had on-panel.

To put it another way, Superman or Flash have scans showing them using speed in combat. Has Surfer opened a black hole in his opponent on-panel in a fight?

Surfer has used VERSATILITY in combat. This is the argument. Superman (Flash have though) doesnt blitz around at untouchable speeds during combat. I can only think of 1 instance where he fought someone and did a DBZ like fighting style. This is what I mean. People apply things towards one character while not reflecting the same things towards all characters. Surfer has used his versatility in combat more times than Superman have fought at light speed or became untouchable.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Advice carv, make sure he's willing to continue the discussion. Galan's cool and pretty reasonable, but you don't want anyone to think that you're arguing with a mod over an official forum policy.

Gotcha. Edited.

Edited

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Originally posted by carver9
Surfer has used VERSATILITY in combat.

Who said he hasn't?

This is the argument. Superman (Flash have though) doesnt blitz around at untouchable speeds during combat. I can only think of 1 instance where he fought someone and did a DBZ like fighting style. This is what I mean. People apply things towards one character while not reflecting the same things towards all characters. Surfer has used his versatility in combat more times than Superman have fought at light speed or became untouchable.

Haven't you read Our Worlds at War like five times? He blitzed Mongul II, one of the projections on Warworld, at least two Imperiex Probes. And that's just from one story.

In more recent time him, Rogal Zaar, and Zod all explicitly fight at speeds that can't be perceived by most.

In Last Son of Krypton, he was able to blitz Zod and Ursa as a fast-moving blur.

But what does any of this matter? I'm sure you've seen all of these scans before so I won't bother posting them, and I'm sure you've worked out ways to try to invalidate the feat so that the inevitability of him beating Hulk to a bloody pulp before Hulk can throw a clumsy hook seems less inevitable for you.