Ares (DCEU) vs. Hela (MCU)

Originally posted by h1a8
Fighting style is what the argument is about. A striker isn't suddenly going to go for a tackle and submission/ground and pound. That’s why specificity is relevant.

In Ares case, he never faced a Hela like character that can throw blades at him. Therefore we can use potential based off his intelligence, power set, as specific feats.

Ares would have to fight like an idiot not to use TK or teleportation to avoid blades thrown at him. Ares tactics are more common sense than anything. Remember I stated barring CIS.

I never cease to enjoy the eternal conflict between h1 and Silent.

Can't we all just agree to disagree?

Originally posted by Silent Master
If it's just about fighting style then all 10 of my examples qualify, thanks for the concession.

Because none of them have Cap tackling someone to the ground, and doing a submission or ground and pound. None of them even had Cap tackling someone to the ground at all. Your examples were plain stupid and irrelevant. Nib gave the proper example.

Remember, Cap doesn't have to suffer CIS to choose not to tackle and submit/pound. So arguing in character is vital. Ares has to suffer from CiS to not do the things I stated. It's a totally big difference.

You can't have it both ways. either it's about potentional or it's about absolute specificity, which is it?

Originally posted by Silent Master
You can't have it both ways. either it's about potentional or it's about absolute specificity, which is it?

Silent trolls again when he's losing. This has been explained to you multiple times.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ares has to suffer from CiS to not do the things I stated.

Except his power level is what you are imagining it to be here.

Hela is just in a while other league.

Thor would stomp Ares, even easier than Wonder Woman did.

Originally posted by h1a8
No, my argument is that Ozy won't get tagged (punched, kicked, etc).

He pointed out comedian tackling Ozy.
His point was that Cap can do the same with additional submission or ground and pound. This is a specific combination that's relevant to the discussion. Your initial examples showed none of that.
If you don't understand that then too bad.

Throws don't count because that would require Ozy to be grabbed without defense. Remember, my argument is that Ozy won't get touched. Tackling is relevant (but faulty) since Ozy was shown to be pushed into the wall.

Stop being a jerk H1. Cap tackled Batroc then knocked him out with a punch. That's a perfectly valid tackled + ground n pound example. Comedian was able to tackle Ozy. If you want to claim that tackling is somehow faulty then you're just being a jerk at this point.

He’s just being his usual troll self.

At this point, I say we go for mod ruling. Otherwise, h1 will just keep derailing threads with his constantly evolving double standards.

Already messaged Imp a few hours ago, I was well aware that h1 would just keep baiting ppl.

Originally posted by h1a8
Silent trolls again when he's losing. This has been explained to you multiple times.

Yes, you want to hold Cap and Hela to absolute specificity while Ozy and Ares get the benefit of protentional.

IOW, you employ massive double standards.

Just to be clear, all 10 of these examples show Cap using tactics other than striking(punching/kicking). thus they're valid examples that it's not OOC for Cap to use non-strike based tactics.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Here we go, first the two I've already mentioned

1. Cap tackles Red Skull into the flight chair
2. Cap grapples with his younger self

Now, some new ones
3. Cap tackles a soldier off an armored vehicle in his first movie
4. Cap grabs a chitauri in a headlock and then throws him over a railing in Avengers
5. Cap tackles Batroc in Winter Soldier
6-9. Cap uses throws against four people in Winter Soldier
10. Cap throws Iron-man to the ground and then procedes to ground and pound him with the shield in Civil War.

/Thread over.

Quoted it so Imp will have an easy time finding it. BTW, the point of bringing this up was to demonstrate h1's double standards in regards to proof.

Ok, to Imp:

Are characters allowed to use tactics that are obviously within their skillsets? At what point are certain tactics allowed/disallowed?

For example: Is Captain America allowed to use basic BJJ/Judo/wrestling/grappling tactics because he was shown (many times) to posses those above skillsets by both the moves he has shown and the tactics he has used. (Pls let me know if you need examples, I will post them. MAYBE might even be able to find commentary about his skills from choreographer/director about the many styles he possesses).

To be more specific, if his striking is quickly deemed ineffective against an opponent (let’s say hypothetically he is against a very skilled defensive super-Mayweather-ish striker), is he allowed to switch tactics? Is he allowed to sprinkle in grappling/etc against other opponents the same way he has done so in his movies? Since grappling tends to be sequential (a grab transitions to a submission, a tackle to a takedown to a ground and pound), etc is said character only allowed to use such moves in the specific sequence he was shown on screen (even tho that would be silly IMO)?

Now I do believe that Ares should also be allowed to use his powers with a level of intelligence (TK defensively I’m not against even tho he’s never used TK defensively to my memory), so this ruling DOES apply to this thread. 😛

I guess you guys miss the multiple posts where I said the batroc feat proves it is in character? Cap is allowed to attempt to tackle someone to the ground if and when he decides.

What's the purpose of all this extra posts derailing the thread?

When you admit and agree that Cap can and will *grapple* (and all techniques associated with such since he has shown the propensity to do so), then you cannot argue Ares using his abilities defensively. Pick one, we don’t really care w/c tbh.

And no vagueness pls. Just yes or no.

That way we can all move on, don’t you agree?

Exactly, when it's a Marvel character H1 not only demands you provide examples of them using that specific technique, but that your examples show them using the techniques in a specific order, or it doesn't count.

When it's a character he supports, he goes by potential. No actual examples needed.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
When you admit and agree that Cap can and will *grapple* (and all techniques associated with such since he has shown the propensity to do so), then you cannot argue Ares using his abilities defensively. Pick one, we don’t really care w/c tbh.

And no vagueness pls. Just yes or no.

That way we can all move on, don’t you agree?

I think you mean "can" not "cannot".

Ares and Cap are two different arguments.
Cap tackling and pounding is a matter of style of fighting. Therefore it is required to show that he has both the ability and the propensity to do so. CIS doesn't apply to this situation.

Ares, on the other hand, needs to only show the ability to use TK and teleportation. He automatically will use it defensively if he HAD TO and was able to (he did show using those abilities defensively onscreen already though). It would be CIS if he had to but chose not to.

For example, he sees blades coming at him. Ares doesn't try to stop them with TK or teleport out of the way. He simply allows himself to be hit with them. That's 100% CIS and is barred.

Wrong. Skill has a lower threshold of proof than powers/abilities do.

Powers are an unknown factor, they do not exist in real life, thus the rules that we know govern them can only be garnered from what we were shown. We can perhaps make reasonable inferences but showings > all.

Defensive teleporting, for example require that he has both the skill and speed in the use of said power to use it defensively. Not just the power existing. Just because you can teleport doesn’t make you Nightcrawler all of a sudden.

A person only needs to demonstrate that he is able to perform high level grappling/wrestling/martial arts to be able to perform the basics of said martial arts. A tae kwan do master who was only shown to do spin kicks will know the basic round house or front kick. We know this because we can see and know this IRL, the same way we can make inferences on RL objects. A car only shown driving at 90mph in a straight line in a movie is allowed to drive 10mph and make turns.

But you take it one step further than this. You go to utter stupidity/trolling by insinuating that a person who can grapple will only be allowed the techniques at the exact circumstances and order/sequence that he performed it in. People are not machines, they adjust and adapt according to their situation.

You want to apply adjustment and adaptibility for the arguments that fit you and deny such to everyone else. This is because you want to bait people into your trolling BS. This pattern of yours is well known.

And that is why you are a troll. And why we need a mod ruling.

Seriously, doesn’t it get tiring trolling people? The type of trolling you do scores ZERO intelligence points for you. It makes you look dumb, toxic and just plain annoying. Annoy-trolling is what 5 year olds do. At least Putinbot puts some cleverness to his trolling (well, most of the time). You just have people beat on you all day for weeks.

Style of fighting is something you made up in order to give yourself an excuse to claim Nib's argument wasn't valid.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Wrong. Skill has a lower threshold of proof than powers/abilities do.

Powers are an unknown factor, they do not exist in real life, thus the rules that we know govern them can only be garnered from what we were shown. We can perhaps make reasonable inferences but showings > all.

Defensive teleporting, for example require that he has both the skill and speed in the use of said power to use it defensively. Not just the power existing. Just because you can teleport doesn’t make you Nightcrawler all of a sudden.

A person only needs to demonstrate that he is able to perform high level grappling/wrestling/martial arts to be able to perform the basics of said martial arts. A tae kwan do master who was only shown to do spin kicks will know the basic round house or front kick. We know this because we can see and know this IRL, the same way we can make inferences on RL objects. A car only shown driving at 90mph in a straight line in a movie is allowed to drive 10mph and make turns.

But you take it one step further than this. You go to utter stupidity/trolling by insinuating that a person who can grapple will only be allowed the techniques at the exact circumstances and order/sequence that he performed it in. People are not machines, they adjust and adapt according to their situation.

You want to apply adjustment and adaptibility for the arguments that fit you and deny such to everyone else. This is because you want to bait people into your trolling BS. This pattern of yours is well known.

And that is why you are a troll. And why we need a mod ruling.

Seriously, doesn’t it get tiring trolling people? The type of trolling you do scores ZERO intelligence points for you. It makes you look dumb, toxic and just plain annoying. Annoy-trolling is what 5 year olds do. At least Putinbot puts some cleverness to his trolling (well, most of the time). You just have people beat on you all day for weeks.

Clearly I agree that if Cap is shown tackling someone to the ground in one scene and using ground fighting techniques in another scene then he can string the two together in a forum fight. My main objection WAS that Cap wasn't shown to tackle someone to the ground. But since you provided a scene where he did then there is no more an argument. You are just wasting time arguing for no reason at all. Your elaborate attempt to move goalposts or argue around that is nothing but trolling.

As far as Ares, he was shown to teleport effortlessly and instantly (probably quicker and easier than nightcrawler). He was shown to use TK in all sorts of ways (controlling many swords, lifting huge chunks of concrete off the ground, ripping a tank's track off, etc). So it's not a matter of skill of whether he can use TK or teleportation defensively but a matter of choice. And he will choose to do such tactics if that is the only way to avoid being hit by something (assuming he can respond to the attack).

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill and fighting style are two different things. A striker will not have the propensity to tackle someone to the ground unless you show them doing it.
If there were NO scenes showing Cap tackling someone to the ground then you can't argue that he will in a forum fight. That's the end of story.

Clearly I agree that if Cap is shown tackling someone to the ground in one scene and using ground fighting techniques in another scene then he can string the two together in a forum fight. My main objection WAS that Cap wasn't shown to tackle someone to the ground. But since you provided a scene where he did then there is no more an argument. You are just wasting time arguing for no reason at all. Your elaborate attempt to move goalposts or argue around that is nothing but trolling.

As far as Ares, he was shown to teleport effortlessly and instantly (probably quicker and easier than nightcrawler). He was shown to use TK in all sorts of ways (controlling many swords, lifting huge chunks of concrete off the ground, ripping a tank's track off, etc). So it's not a matter of skill of whether he can use TK or teleportation defensively but a matter of choice. And he will choose to do such tactics if that is the only way to avoid being hit by something (assuming he can respond to the attack).

This is flat out stupid. Tackling someone and pounding them while they are on the ground are extremely basic maneuvers that an untrained schoolyard bully knows how to do. They may not do it well but you don't need some kind of special skill or training to know the basic concept.

Equating this to someone using powers in a way that's more complicated than they had shown before is pure trolling at this point.

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill and fighting style are two different things. A striker will not have the propensity to tackle someone to the ground unless you show them doing it.
If there were NO scenes showing Cap tackling someone to the ground then you can't argue that he will in a forum fight. That's the end of story.

Clearly I agree that if Cap is shown tackling someone to the ground in one scene and using ground fighting techniques in another scene then he can string the two together in a forum fight. My main objection WAS that Cap wasn't shown to tackle someone to the ground. But since you provided a scene where he did then there is no more an argument. You are just wasting time arguing for no reason at all. Your elaborate attempt to move goalposts or argue around that is nothing but trolling.

As far as Ares, he was shown to teleport effortlessly and instantly (probably quicker and easier than nightcrawler). He was shown to use TK in all sorts of ways (controlling many swords, lifting huge chunks of concrete off the ground, ripping a tank's track off, etc). So it's not a matter of skill of whether he can use TK or teleportation defensively but a matter of choice. And he will choose to do such tactics if that is the only way to avoid being hit by something (assuming he can respond to the attack).

See? This is why everyone thinks you are a troll. You are dishonest and everything you said up there is just bait. But I’m bored so I’ll bite.

You are accusing me of moving the goalposts while at the same time moving the goalposts yourself. La dee dah. Predictable h1 projection-troll.

Ok, let’s test your “honesty” level here.

Were you or were you not shown that Cap can do advanced grappling techniques by SM? (Y/N)

Are the techniques shown by SM techniques a pure striker would use? (Y/N)

Did you and did you not still insist that a specific sequence of tackling is required before you would accept it AFTER SM has already shown you the techniques Cap used? (Y/N)

3 simple questions. Answer them honestly and you are busted for projection. Answer them falsely and the world sees how much of a idiot/liar you are.

This should be interesting.

BTW, those are simple yes or no questions, they don't require multiple paragraphs to answer.