I'm withholding judgement on Atha Prime until we see more of him. Though it looks like that's going to be a while. Near as I can tell, he won't be showing up in any comics at least through to mid-September. The Jedi Knights comic run seems kind of uninterested in following up on Atha Prime, and is instead focusing on an attempted assassination of Qui-Gon Jinn.
Part of me is hoping the mainline Star Wars (2025) run picks up Atha Prime as the primary antagonist for the New Republic, so he can fulfill the promise of his original creation by Kenner as a follow-up villain after RotJ (in a cancelled toy line called The Epic Continues).
Ranking Atha Prime feels a little pointless to me right now, since we know virtually nothing about him. We don't even know if he's Force sensitive or not. All we know is he's a radical bioengineer. He might just have experimented on himself to have insane physical attributes. Maybe he's largely cybernetic beneath those robes. Maybe he is a Yoda-level Force wielder and we just haven't seen him use the Force yet. There's simply too many unknowns about him so far for me to feel comfortable ranking him.
As an aside, I'm deeply disappointed in the mainline Star Wars (2025) comic so far. I don't know why Marvel stuck with Alex Segura after how badly he butchered the Battle of Jakku miniseries (Insurgency Rising, Republic Under Siege, and Last Stand). Segura's version of Luke feels extremely out-of-character to me, worse than Mandalorian Season 2 and Book of Boba Fett Luke. And Segura absolutely mangled the post-RotJ timeline, mixing up all sorts of events from the Aftermath trilogy, Alphabet Squadron trilogy, Battlefront II, and Star Wars Uprising mobile game. It's just such a jumbled mess, I have no idea why he was trusted with actually writing the mainline comics after that.
The one silver lining, to me, is that he brought back the Nagai from the classic Marvel comics. Now if only we could get canon versions of Flint and Lumiya to complete the time period.
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Better than Sidious?
Yes, Momin's resurrection was absolutely better than Palpatine's. He didn't come back in a failing clone body, he snatched his own original body from the netherworld of the Force. Granted, it was kind of a one-time thing that took years of experimenting with dark side architecture on top of an extremely powerful dark side nexus, and Vader immediately killed him after. So I wouldn't really call what Momin achieved true "immortality," more just... overcoming death once. The way the Jedi have achieved immortality is vastly superior than any attempt we've seen of the Sith.
The way I see it, Jedi become immortal by becoming an actual part of the Force, which exists in all things, through all time, and is functionally limitless. They're able to somehow maintain their individuality within this infinity, holding on to a sense of self. Force Ghosts might have limits, as I believe they're stuck utterly adhering to the Will of the Force itself, so they can't directly interfere much. But they're still functionally infinite, truly immortal beings.
On the other hand, Sith like Palpatine, Momin, Exim Panshard, and others have attempted to gain immortality by seemingly severing themselves from the natural cycle of the Force. Instead of their essence, their Living Force, returning to the Cosmic Force when they die, they send that essence elsewhere. Into an artifact like Momin's or Panshard's helmets, or into a cloned body. They're functionally breaking off a part of the Living Force and desperately holding on to it, instead of becoming a part of the Cosmic Force. That kind of "immortality" is fragile, as each of these Sith have demonstrated. Once the vessel holding that essence is destroyed, that's it. No more immortality. Very D&D lich-like, in that regard.
Originally posted by Underachiever59👆
I'm withholding judgement on Atha Prime until we see more of him. Though it looks like that's going to be a while. Near as I can tell, he won't be showing up in any comics at least through to mid-September. The Jedi Knights comic run seems kind of uninterested in following up on Atha Prime, and is instead focusing on an attempted assassination of Qui-Gon Jinn.Part of me is hoping the mainline Star Wars (2025) run picks up Atha Prime as the primary antagonist for the New Republic, so he can fulfill the promise of his original creation by Kenner as a follow-up villain after RotJ (in a cancelled toy line called The Epic Continues).
Ranking Atha Prime feels a little pointless to me right now, since we know virtually nothing about him. We don't even know if he's Force sensitive or not. All we know is he's a radical bioengineer. He might just have experimented on himself to have insane physical attributes. Maybe he's largely cybernetic beneath those robes. Maybe he is a Yoda-level Force wielder and we just haven't seen him use the Force yet. There's simply too many unknowns about him so far for me to feel comfortable ranking him.
Atha Prime basically engineered the SW equivalent of Xenomorphs(which were insanely strong), and seems hellbent on creating the 'perfect lifeform' or w/e. So even if he's not Force sensitive to some degree, I'm sure Atha has experimented on(and upgraded) himself tremendously in all kinds of ways over the years.
Clearly his physicals are absolutely stacked(overwhelming Yoda like that is no small feat), and he definitely has final boss energy, but he needs a few more showings before it's even worth trying to accurately gauge him. /shrug
Originally posted by Underachiever59I can't give this post enough "👆".
As an aside, I'm deeply disappointed in the mainline Star Wars (2025) comic so far. I don't know why Marvel stuck with Alex Segura after how badly he butchered the Battle of Jakku miniseries (Insurgency Rising, Republic Under Siege, and Last Stand). Segura's version of Luke feels extremely out-of-character to me, worse than Mandalorian Season 2 and Book of Boba Fett Luke. And Segura absolutely mangled the post-RotJ timeline, mixing up all sorts of events from the Aftermath trilogy, Alphabet Squadron trilogy, Battlefront II, and Star Wars Uprising mobile game. It's just such a jumbled mess, I have no idea why he was trusted with actually writing the mainline comics after that.The one silver lining, to me, is that he brought back the Nagai from the classic Marvel comics. Now if only we could get canon versions of Flint and Lumiya to complete the time period.
At this point I'm convinced that not only has Segura never watched SW, but that he might actually hate it. The immediate post-RotJ era was easily my most anticipated point for the comics to flesh out, but Segura is absolutely shitting on it and shows NO signs of improvement(to the point where I'm considering dropping the series.) The characterizations, the plots, the overall "feel"... Terrible. The guy is a hack.
Give me back Soule, Pak, Rucka, or Gillen... It's still not too late for this era to be salvaged! ermmnone
Originally posted by Galan007
👆Atha Prime basically engineered the SW equivalent of Xenomorphs(which were insanely strong), and seems hellbent on creating the 'perfect lifeform' or w/e. So even if he's not Force sensitive to some degree, I'm sure Atha has experimented on(and upgraded) himself tremendously in all kinds of ways over the years.
Clearly his physicals are absolutely stacked(overwhelming Yoda like that is no small feat), and he definitely has final boss energy, but he needs a few more showings before it's even worth trying to accurately gauge him. /shrug
I can't give this post enough "👆".
At this point I'm convinced that not only has Segura never watched SW, but that he might actually hate it. The immediate post-RotJ era was easily my most anticipated point for the comics to flesh out, but Segura is absolutely shitting on it and shows NO signs of improvement(to the point where I'm considering dropping the series.) The characterizations, the plots, the overall "feel"... Terrible. The guy is a hack.
Give me back Soule, Pak, Rucka, or Gillen... It's still not too late for this era to be salvaged! ermmnone
So glad it's not just me! It's unbelievable how bad his comics are, especially compared to how great some of the previous Star Wars comic runs have been. It's completely ruined all of my enjoyment of what used to be my most highly anticipated era. It's such an insanely massive downgrade even compared to the classic Marvel comics from the 80's covering the same time period. At least we still have Doctor Aphra - Chaos Agent. Wild that Luke is more in-character as a secondary character in a totally different character's comic run, instead of the comic where he's supposed to be front and center.
Exactly.
Remember the Shattered Empire mini? Now THAT is the post-RotJ Luke I was hoping to see to see -- Rucka's portrayal was perfect, imo.
But guys like Soule, Pak, and Gillen, for example, can do just as well with the character(s), and always seem really eager to write any SW material... So I have no clue why we're stuck with Segura here? He has absolutely failed. 👇
Originally posted by Underachiever59
I'm withholding judgement on Atha Prime until we see more of him. Though it looks like that's going to be a while. Near as I can tell, he won't be showing up in any comics at least through to mid-September. The Jedi Knights comic run seems kind of uninterested in following up on Atha Prime, and is instead focusing on an attempted assassination of Qui-Gon Jinn.Part of me is hoping the mainline Star Wars (2025) run picks up Atha Prime as the primary antagonist for the New Republic, so he can fulfill the promise of his original creation by Kenner as a follow-up villain after RotJ (in a cancelled toy line called The Epic Continues).
Ranking Atha Prime feels a little pointless to me right now, since we know virtually nothing about him. We don't even know if he's Force sensitive or not. All we know is he's a radical bioengineer. He might just have experimented on himself to have insane physical attributes. Maybe he's largely cybernetic beneath those robes. Maybe he is a Yoda-level Force wielder and we just haven't seen him use the Force yet. There's simply too many unknowns about him so far for me to feel comfortable ranking him.
Originally posted by Galan007But even if Atha Prime is amped physically or with the force, he still beat YODA pretty easy. That will always be a feat of his. He's a top tier beast for sure.
👆Atha Prime basically engineered the SW equivalent of Xenomorphs(which were insanely strong), and seems hellbent on creating the 'perfect lifeform' or w/e. So even if he's not Force sensitive to some degree, I'm sure Atha has experimented on(and upgraded) himself tremendously in all kinds of ways over the years.
Clearly his physicals are absolutely stacked(overwhelming Yoda like that is no small feat), and he definitely has final boss energy, but he needs a few more showings before it's even worth trying to accurately gauge him. /shrug
Originally posted by Underachiever59Yep. Momin figured out how to resurrect ONCE. Hardly worth an immortality claim.
Yes, Momin's resurrection was absolutely better than Palpatine's. He didn't come back in a failing clone body, he snatched his own original body from the netherworld of the Force. Granted, it was kind of a one-time thing that took years of experimenting with dark side architecture on top of an extremely powerful dark side nexus, and Vader immediately killed him after. So I wouldn't really call what Momin achieved true "immortality," more just... overcoming death once. The way the Jedi have achieved immortality is vastly superior than any attempt we've seen of the Sith.The way I see it, Jedi become immortal by becoming an actual part of the Force, which exists in all things, through all time, and is functionally limitless. They're able to somehow maintain their individuality within this infinity, holding on to a sense of self. Force Ghosts might have limits, as I believe they're stuck utterly adhering to the Will of the Force itself, so they can't directly interfere much. But they're still functionally infinite, truly immortal beings.
On the other hand, Sith like Palpatine, Momin, Exim Panshard, and others have attempted to gain immortality by seemingly severing themselves from the natural cycle of the Force. Instead of their essence, their Living Force, returning to the Cosmic Force when they die, they send that essence elsewhere. Into an artifact like Momin's or Panshard's helmets, or into a cloned body. They're functionally breaking off a part of the Living Force and desperately holding on to it, instead of becoming a part of the Cosmic Force. That kind of "immortality" is fragile, as each of these Sith have demonstrated. Once the vessel holding that essence is destroyed, that's it. No more immortality. Very D&D lich-like, in that regard.
Originally posted by SheevOh in his one and only appearance, Atha was clearly a beast. No doubt about it.
But even if Atha Prime is amped physically or with the force, he still beat YODA pretty easy. That will always be a feat of his. He's a top tier beast for sure.
That said, typically when a new fictional 'big bad' is revealed, they are portrayed as borderline untouchable at first... Only to be watered down in subsequent appearances. That's why I agree that we should wait for Atha to be fleshed out a bit, before we try to rank him with any sort of accuracy.
Maybe he will always be portrayed as an elite, Yoda-tier+ threat... Or maybe he'll get owned by a Padawan's TK shove in his next appearance. /shrug
Originally posted by SheevThis is quite an oversimplification of Momin's accomplishment, tbh.
Yep. Momin figured out how to resurrect ONCE. Hardly worth an immortality claim.
Momin discovered how to construct esoteric dark side tech/architecture that can create precise portals through spacetime, allowing him to resurrect(and reunite his current essence with) his OWN physical body from the past:
https://ibb.co/SXVKkvXK
https://ibb.co/MxW6kMHL
Had Vader not thwarted his plans, Momin could have logically attained "true" [dark side] immortality, and just kept endlessly respawning himself whenever he needed to, with no drawbacks. Conversely, Palpatine would have required direct access to TWBW in order to pull off something like that -- but evidently locking his essence inside a rotten/decrepit clone body was his only option at the time (and Palpatine technically 'just' resurrected once as well, fwiw... But he did so in a vastly inferior way than Momin.)
tl;dr
Momin was just hyper-attuned to the dark side(which is ironic, as I wouldn't even call him a "Sith" in the conventional sense), and he used that connection to unlock an entirely different aspect of the Force than anyone else we've seen in canon. He was way ahead of his time(and still is.)
Originally posted by Galan007True, but as of right now he's basically the most powerful h2h fighter in all of Star Wars history. Who else is stomping Yoda like that? 😈
Oh in his one and only appearance, Atha was clearly a beast. No doubt about it.That said, typically when a new fictional 'big bad' is revealed, they are portrayed as borderline untouchable at first... Only to be watered down in subsequent appearances. That's why I agree that we should wait for Atha to be fleshed out a bit, before we try to rank him with any sort of accuracy.
Maybe he will always be portrayed as an elite, Yoda-tier+ threat... Or maybe he'll get owned by a Padawan's TK shove in his next appearance. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007Yes but it took Momin several years (and failures) to figure that out. But even so, he definitely would have needed that infinite regen because he was also pretty weak- a weakened and injured Vader killed him ffs. 😛
This is quite an oversimplification of Momin's accomplishment, tbh.Momin discovered how to construct esoteric dark side tech/architecture that can create precise portals through spacetime, allowing him to resurrect(and reunite his current essence with) his OWN physical body from the past:
https://ibb.co/SXVKkvXK
https://ibb.co/MxW6kMHL
Had Vader not thwarted his plans, Momin could have logically attained "true" [dark side] immortality, and just kept endlessly respawning himself whenever he needed to, with no drawbacks. Conversely, Palpatine would have required direct access to TWBW in order to pull off something like that -- but evidently locking his essence inside a rotten/decrepit clone body was his only option at the time (and Palpatine technically 'just' resurrected once as well, fwiw... But he did so in a vastly inferior way than Momin.)tl;dr
Momin was just hyper-attuned to the dark side(which is ironic, as I wouldn't even call him a "Sith" in the conventional sense), and he used that connection to unlock an entirely different aspect of the Force than anyone else we've seen in canon. He was way ahead of his time(and still is.)
Originally posted by SheevHey, if you want to run fast and loose with that, go for it. Given that Atha literally has no other appearances as of now, I can't really argue with you. 👆
True, but as of right now he's basically the most powerful h2h fighter in all of Star Wars history. Who else is stomping Yoda like that? 😈
Originally posted by SheevThe timeline for Vader's castle is kind of muddled, but anyway...
Yes but it took Momin several years (and failures) to figure that out.
Momin began construction on the various iterations of Vader's castle in Darth Vader v2 #23(which is set a few years after RotS, iirc), and the final version of Vader's castle was completed by the end of the same issue. Absolutely no indication of overall construction-time was given in the issue itself, but Momin built eight different versions of Vader's castle, before settling on the ninth, and final, "Fortress Vader"(aka. "Momin's masterpiece"😉... Which obviously didn't happen overnight.
That being said, we do know that Fortress Vader had at least been completed by 10BBY, as it was shown in the final episode of the Kenobi show. With that in mind, we can deduce that it took Momin a maximum of like 7-8 years to build a perfected version of Fortress Vader, and effectively master death with no explicit drawbacks... Flip side, even with all of his existing dark side knowledge, virtually unlimited resources at his disposal(including Momin's mask), and decadeS of time to master the one thing he craved most(ie. resurrection/immortality), Palpatine still never got past the 'hump' of having to transfer his essence into a crippled/decaying clone body... Momin would have been absolutely disgusted by such crude methods, tbh.
Originally posted by SheevWhat metric are you using to determine that Momin was "weak" with the Force otherwise? Granted, Momin admitted inferiority to like a 9-10BBY Vader, but that certainly doesn't make him "weak" -- Vader was already one of the most powerful Force users in history by then. So ofc Momin waited until Vader was injured/weakened to attack him directly...as most logical people would...And proceeded to stomp him. Vader only beat Momin with a TK sneak-attack while he was off-guard and monologuing(essentially how Kylo killed Snoke, or how Vader 'killed' Palpatine), but I digress.
But even so, he definitely would have needed that infinite regen because he was also pretty weak- a weakened and injured Vader killed him ffs. 😛
*I'm not claiming that Momin is some Force powerhouse, mind you(his main power definitely lies in his dark side knowledge/understanding, and obvs his actual creations.) I just never got the indication that Momin was some particularly weak feeb is all. /shrug
Originally posted by Eli VantoDepends what type of Force-feats you're looking for. In terms of just raw TK or w/e, this is probably the OT's best:
The best of the OT is- Honestly not sure. There are so many to pick from.
Originally posted by Galan007
*But keep in mind that OT Palpatine scales above that. Luke might as well. /shrug
^ Agree that it's an outlier(not unlike Yoda's mountain feat), but yes, Darth Vader: Black, White & Red is canon. All that slightly muddles things is that we don't know exactly *when* its various stories are set in the timeline, as no chronological indicators were really given in the series. IOW, that could be Vader from almost any point between RotS and RotJ. /shrug
I rank the Queen of the Screaming Citadel pretty low. She was defeated pretty decisively by Luke less than a year after ANH, when he was still struggling to do basic things like simple telekinesis consistently.
When the Queen first encountered Luke doing a basic force push, her response was "so much power, so little experience," yet she still believed she would "need to be at [her] full strength for such a confrontation" against Luke. We don't even know how much of her abilities are Force-based versus just simply biological. Aphra describes the parasite controlling the queen as "hive control system, transfers life energies up the pyramid." Which implies to me that the drain we see the Queen perform is not a Force drain like what we see with Palpatine in TRoS, but more of a biological trait of the bug hive.
Originally posted by Eli VantoShe was very "Bride of Dracula"-esque, and pretty obscure by SW standards.
She just came off as perhaps the most obscure type of force user in the new canon.
But imo, the "most" obscure in canon so far(correct me if I'm wrong, UA) are probably the "Trinity of Leadership", from a faction called "The Final Occultation":
Heldi Cerebron:
https://ibb.co/hFDNwk3r
Vasik Aldritch:
https://ibb.co/QjYrw596
Unknown:
https://ibb.co/rP53Btj
...Their general weirdness reminds me of the Bedlam Spirits a bit. /shrug
Originally posted by Underachiever59👆
I rank the Queen of the Screaming Citadel pretty low. She was defeated pretty decisively by Luke less than a year after ANH, when he was still struggling to do basic things like simple telekinesis consistently.When the Queen first encountered Luke doing a basic force push, her response was "so much power, so little experience," yet she still believed she would "need to be at [her] full strength for such a confrontation" against Luke. We don't even know how much of her abilities are Force-based versus just simply biological. Aphra describes the parasite controlling the queen as "hive control system, transfers life energies up the pyramid." Which implies to me that the drain we see the Queen perform is not a Force drain like what we see with Palpatine in TRoS, but more of a biological trait of the bug hive.
Originally posted by Galan007
She was very "Bride of Dracula"-esque, and pretty obscure by SW standards.But imo, the "most" obscure in canon so far(correct me if I'm wrong, UA) are probably the "Trinity of Leadership", from a faction called "The Final Occultation":
Heldi Cerebron:
https://ibb.co/hFDNwk3rVasik Aldritch:
https://ibb.co/QjYrw596Unknown:
https://ibb.co/rP53Btj...Their general weirdness reminds me of the Bedlam Spirits a bit. /shrug
👆