Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never said it made him a genius?I'm saying he's not an idiot.
There's a difference between saying a person is an "idiot in fighting" vs. a person is an idiot.
No, Superman is definitely not an idiot. But a case can be made that he's an idiot at fighting. I don't agree, but using how he fought against Flash or WW doesn't exactly prove that he isn't an idiot at fighting.
Originally posted by FrothByte
There's a difference between saying a person is an "idiot in fighting" vs. a person is an idiot.No, Superman is definitely not an idiot. But a case can be made that he's an idiot at fighting. I don't agree, but using how he fought against Flash or WW doesn't exactly prove that he isn't an idiot at fighting.
Why not? He met them for the first time (well, not WW) , and reacted accordingly without them doing any damage or even landing hits (and this includes the rest of the JL).
Kept them at a distance, and used his advantages....well, to his advantage despite being vastly outnumbered.
I'm not saying he's a fighting genius, but neither am I saying he's an idiot. He's just....well, average at fighting.
But not an idiot. Unless you have specific reason to think so?
IMO, DCEU Superman is about as good a fighter as you would expect from someone who has no formal training and basically had to learn on the job (and even then, it's not like he has faced that many big bads to have a chance to improve). Or put it this way. He is a way better fighter than someone like, say, Titans Superboy (who has the same powerset, minus flight, and weird clone muscle memory to fall back on), who somehow manages to get tagged in every single fight he is in despite often using things like heat vision and vastly outclassing most of his opponents and their weapons in terms of speed.
To give an example of what I mean, one of the first things he tries to do against Doomsday is get him the phuck out of dodge and away from everything else. Of course, the military nuking them buggered up that plan. But it shows that he is thinking and learned from his fight with Zod. Or at least that's how it came across to me.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why not? He met them for the first time (well, not WW) , and reacted accordingly without them doing any damage or even landing hits (and this includes the rest of the JL).Kept them at a distance, and used his advantages....well, to his advantage despite being vastly outnumbered.
I'm not saying he's a fighting genius, but neither am I saying he's an idiot. He's just....well, average at fighting.
But not an idiot. Unless you have specific reason to think so?
He used his overwhelmingly superior physical traits to defeat them. Not sure why that would be impressive. Even a dog would react the same way.
But yes, I do have some examples of why he might be considered an idiot at fighting.
1. In the fight against Doomsday, why did he think he needed to be the one to hit DD with the Kryptonite spear? He could have easily given the spear to Diana and asked Diana to throw it at DD.
2. In the fight against the other Kryptonians who couldn't fly and didn't have heat vision, why didn't he just levitate in the air and bombard them with his heat vision?
3. In the fight against Steppenwolf, if he was so darn fast and strong that he could easily evade Steppenwolf's hit, why didn't he hit him enough times to completely knockout Steppenwofl to take him out of the game?
To be fair, many superheroes do stupid things in their fights here and there. The main difference is they also do things that show tactical thinking and skill. Superman has nothing like that. No feats of inspired skill or tactical thinking to offset his idiotic moments.
Originally posted by FrothByte
He used his overwhelmingly superior physical traits to defeat them. Not sure why that would be impressive. Even a dog would react the same way.But yes, I do have some examples of why he might be considered an idiot at fighting.
1. In the fight against Doomsday, why did he think he needed to be the one to hit DD with the Kryptonite spear? He could have easily given the spear to Diana and asked Diana to throw it at DD.
2. In the fight against the other Kryptonians who couldn't fly and didn't have heat vision, why didn't he just levitate in the air and bombard them with his heat vision?
3. In the fight against Steppenwolf, if he was so darn fast and strong that he could easily evade Steppenwolf's hit, why didn't he hit him enough times to completely knockout Steppenwofl to take him out of the game?
To be fair, many superheroes do stupid things in their fights here and there. The main difference is they also do things that show tactical thinking and skill. Superman has nothing like that. No feats of inspired skill or tactical thinking to offset his idiotic moments.
He opens the battle with the JL by scanning them first, collecting info. No, a dog doesn't scan me before attacking - it doesn't sniff and lick me.
Then before WW can use her 'ultimate attack', he speeds in and puts his hand in between them, stopping her. No, a dog doesn't do that either, with pre-emptive measures.
Like I said, I am not saying he is a genius. Neither is he an idiot. He just...is.
But the analogy with the dog is a good one though. Even a dog knows to try and use its speed to avoid hits.
Superman would never get hit by Hela, as he would use his speed to dodge/avoid attacks. Even dumb animals would do so.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He opens the battle with the JL by scanning them first, collecting info. No, a dog doesn't scan me before attacking - it doesn't sniff and lick me.Then before WW can use her 'ultimate attack', he speeds in and puts his hand in between them, stopping her. No, a dog doesn't do that either, with pre-emptive measures.
Like I said, I am not saying he is a genius. Neither is he an idiot. He just...is.
But the analogy with the dog is a good one though. Even a dog knows to try and use its speed to avoid hits.
Superman would never get hit by Hela, as he would use his speed to dodge/avoid attacks. Even dumb animals would do so.
Of course a dog assesses you first before attacking. That's why it won't recklessly attack a bear out of hand or pick a fight with an entire pack of dogs while it's alone. It's why dogs will bark at some people they've assessed are threats whereas they'll be completely friendly with other people.
Don't know why you think Diana's shockwave is her "ultimate attack" (it isn't that strong) but if you think Superman showed fighting smarts just because he stopped an attack that he had already seen used before, well, you have a low bar for what fighting smarts are. It certainly isn't enough to negate the stupid things he's done like trying to kill DD with a kryptonite spear himself.
As for never getting hit by Hela, he can run around Hela for a bit, dodge a number of hits, but in the end Hela will just keep regenerating. And it's not like Superman is completely unhittable by people who don't have superspeed. Cyborg was able to land shots against him after all, so did Batman.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Of course a dog assesses you first before attacking. That's why it won't recklessly attack a bear out of hand or pick a fight with an entire pack of dogs while it's alone. It's why dogs will bark at some people they've assessed are threats whereas they'll be completely friendly with other people.Don't know why you think Diana's shockwave is her "ultimate attack" (it isn't that strong) but if you think Superman showed fighting smarts just because he stopped an attack that he had already seen used before, well, you have a low bar for what fighting smarts are. It certainly isn't enough to negate the stupid things he's done like trying to kill DD with a kryptonite spear himself.
As for never getting hit by Hela, he can run around Hela for a bit, dodge a number of hits, but in the end Hela will just keep regenerating. And it's not like Superman is completely unhittable by people who don't have superspeed. Cyborg was able to land shots against him after all, so did Batman.
If a character sustains a certain amount of damage then they will die or be koed. Hela does not heal infinitely fast. Superman just has to accumulate damage faster than she can heal and he will eventually win. Superman can also use one of her blades to slice a limb off.
Originally posted by h1a8
If a character sustains a certain amount of damage then they will die or be koed. Hela does not heal infinitely fast. Superman just has to accumulate damage faster than she can heal and he will eventually win. Superman can also use one of her blades to slice a limb off.
Remember your rule, either post examples of Superman using that tactic or it's not valid for debate
Unless of course you want to admit to being a hypocrite. Well, do you?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85So beings like Darkseid, Thanos, and countless others. Shouldn't be able to beat the Flash, because he's to fast to hit right? Let's step back to reality for a second. Skill, experience, and intellect can beat speed. Let's use boxers or ufc fighters with incredible speed for example. They take losses against guys they might be faster then. Why is this, there speed should clearly be the deciding factor in every fight right? Unfortunately it isn't. When fighters loose to other fighters that are slower than them, it's usually because the fighter is a more experienced fighter, who's relying on skill, and intellect rather then just ability. Yeah i know boxers, and MMA fighters don't move as fast as Superman, but it's safe to say it's an equivalent comparison to one who's known for speed vs one who isn't. Now back to the comic world. Hela clearly has the experience, skill, and intellect over Clark in battle. Not to mention she's a God, who despite the showing would have some type of God like speed. Add all the above with the right timing, and Superman flies right into sword for speed blitzing one to many times.
If a slower character beats a faster character, it's down to plot, i.e. PIS.
Originally posted by h1a8
If a character sustains a certain amount of damage then they will die or be koed. Hela does not heal infinitely fast. Superman just has to accumulate damage faster than she can heal and he will eventually win. Superman can also use one of her blades to slice a limb off.
If you're using the logic of "Hela can't keep up her healing indefinitely" then I can also use the logic of "Superman can't use his speed indefinitely". Do you agree?
As for Hela not healing infinitely fast, you really need to watch the movie before making comments. Hela's healing was pretty much instantaneous.
Originally posted by FrothByte
If you're using the logic of "Hela can't keep up her healing indefinitely" then I can also use the logic of "Superman can't use his speed indefinitely". Do you agree?As for Hela not healing infinitely fast, you really need to watch the movie before making comments. Hela's healing was pretty much instantaneous.
Did I say anything about indefinitely? I said if she accrues a certain amount of damage then she will die or be koed. Superman just needs to accumulate damage faster than she heals. Hela will eventually be damaged well enough to die or be koed.
Originally posted by heru
So beings like Darkseid, Thanos, and countless others. Shouldn't be able to beat the Flash, because he's to fast to hit right? Let's step back to reality for a second. Skill, experience, and intellect can beat speed. Let's use boxers or ufc fighters with incredible speed for example. They take losses against guys they might be faster then. Why is this, there speed should clearly be the deciding factor in every fight right? Unfortunately it isn't. When fighters loose to other fighters that are slower than them, it's usually because the fighter is a more experienced fighter, who's relying on skill, and intellect rather then just ability. Yeah i know boxers, and MMA fighters don't move as fast as Superman, but it's safe to say it's an equivalent comparison to one who's known for speed vs one who isn't. Now back to the comic world. Hela clearly has the experience, skill, and intellect over Clark in battle. Not to mention she's a God, who despite the showing would have some type of God like speed. Add all the above with the right timing, and Superman flies right into sword for speed blitzing one to many times.
Being slightly faster is not necessarily a deciding factor of who wins.
Once the ratio of speed exceeds a certain amount then it is impossible for the faster to lose.
For example, if someone is 1000x faster then 0.1 seconds in the slower's mind would be equivalent to 100 seconds (more than a minute) to the faster. The slower is basically a statue.
Originally posted by heru
I made a mistake while posting, which is why it was posted three times. You take no credit for that. So please put your hard on away, it's embarrassing.
Calm down, you're more hysterical than a middle aged woman who found out her boyfriend is molesting her daughter.
Hela was impailed by a sword not once but twice,
I have no idea why you thought bringing this up would help your argument.
but it did nothing.
No, it went through her despite being wielded by a fodder. She survived because of her healing factor, but that is a very low showing for her actual durability. 🙂
Superman died when he got impailed. So it's safe to say durablity goes to her.
While being exposed to kryptonite, which removes his powers. You are aware that's how it works right? You'd have to be pretty stupid to think otherwise.
As far as Thor holding his own. Thor did very little to hold his own against her. Everyone was getting there ass handed to them, which is why they had to call on an Odin villian to take her down.
Even before awakening his full power Thor was able to break her headress and stab her with his spear.
F7V_7cNjBtM&t=616s
23 seconds in.
She had the advantage, but she also immediately healed every wound Thor dealt her, whereas every stab, cut, or bruise on Thor stuck. That is the biggest difference between them, her healing factor due to Asgard.
This is irrelevant because I've already acknowledged Superman can't kill Hela. He will beat her senseless with her being incapable of doing anything though. 👆
Folks are always going towards Superman speed to win fights, as if it's the ultimate trump card.
It is. 👆
Sorry dude it's not. In terms of fighting Superman is not the better fighter between the two.
Skill only matters if the characters are comparable physically. We saw how well Captain America's much greater skill helped him against Quicksilver. 🙂
His speed would only go so far before she figure him out. He's not going to KO her with a punch, or grab her, and throw her in the sun or space before she can react.. Lol. She's to strong for that.
And too slow to even begin to use that strength against him. 🙂
So what could he possibly do to stop her, before he get a ass full of splinters, and die from his injuries for the second time.
Presumably dodge them with his super speed, since he is literally so fast that Hela would be frozen in time from his perception.
What could she possibly do when Superman can attack her faster than she can think, much less move?
Keep in mind, Hela was never been shown dead in the movie. Being stop, and death are two different things. So if Satur wasn't able to kill her Superman won't be able to do nothing.
Not only is this irrelevant to my argument, it's also completely baseless conjecture.
Try to prove Hela survived the destruction of Asgard. I'll wait. 🙂
I'm sure we'll find out if she's dead in the next few Marvel movies. But be as it may Hela is way to powerful for the Alien from Krypton. If Doomsday is capable of killing Superman, then Hela is going to rape him long sword style... Lol
Doomsday would also physically dominate Hela, though he's stupid enough and doesn't use his speed well enough that she might be able to pull the win against him.
Regardless, Clark legitimately would pummel Hela's skull in over and over again and she would be physically incapable of seeing him while he moves, much less fighting back.
This is what will happen whenever Hela tries to attack him:
Originally posted by heruThe gap in speed between Superman and Hela is substantially larger than the gap in speed between a paraplegic four year old girl and Floyd Mayweather Jr.
So beings like Darkseid, Thanos, and countless others. Shouldn't be able to beat the Flash, because he's to fast to hit right? Let's step back to reality for a second. Skill, experience, and intellect can beat speed. Let's use boxers or ufc fighters with incredible speed for example. They take losses against guys they might be faster then. Why is this, there speed should clearly be the deciding factor in every fight right? Unfortunately it isn't. When fighters loose to other fighters that are slower than them, it's usually because the fighter is a more experienced fighter, who's relying on skill, and intellect rather then just ability. Yeah i know boxers, and MMA fighters don't move as fast as Superman, but it's safe to say it's an equivalent comparison to one who's known for speed vs one who isn't. Now back to the comic world. Hela clearly has the experience, skill, and intellect over Clark in battle. Not to mention she's a God, who despite the showing would have some type of God like speed. Add all the above with the right timing, and Superman flies right into sword for speed blitzing one to many times.
You're clearly not very smart so let me reiterate: The gap between Superman and Hela is greater than the gap between any two human beings alive. Greater than the gap between just about any two living things ever.
Your comparisons don't work because the gap between the people you're comparing isn't even close to as wide. 👇
Put it like this.
Who would win, a supremely skilled Tyson in his prime, with Bruce Lee's skills etc...
Or a grunt with ten days' basic weapons training and a gun? Assume for both sides, nerves etc don't come into things, and they're both looking to deal damage to the other side (so no freezing up because Tyson is coming at you, nor would Tyson freeze because a punk has a gun pointed at him).
Originally posted by h1a8
Did I say anything about indefinitely? I said if she accrues a certain amount of damage then she will die or be koed. Superman just needs to accumulate damage faster than she heals. Hela will eventually be damaged well enough to die or be koed.
And what on screen feats from Hela did you base this theory of yours on?
Originally posted by FrothByte
And what on screen feats from Hela did you base this theory of yours on?
The feats he came up with in his head and ignored movie feats to speak about.
Because if I recall, it was stated by Odin that Hela was too powerful for even him to kill back before he started being weakened by age. And Ragnarok stopped her, but we didn't see her die. Nor did getting hit with the largest lightning bolt in the history of lightning bolts slow her down for more than a few moments.