Originally posted by DominisShe believed in herself and had renewed determination. Palpatine tried to kill both her and Ben. He was unable despite what opinion you have he was unsuccessful when the rubber met the road.
Yeah, I know. I was just following the logic used by Quanchi.The fact that she was helpless against a weakened Sidious, yet was able to access enough power to defeat a fully restored Emperor, means she was wielding power that she hadn't before. Whether he wants to accept the canon explanation that she was empowered by all the jedi in favor of his interpretation that it was her own innate power, either way, it's still power she was unable to access before that point, including when she fought Ren.
Kenobi beat Darth Vader despite Vader outclassing him in power, ability, and skill. Rey used two sabers to overpower the fl and deflect it back. In the end Palpatine was fl or bust.
Originally posted by The_TempestThe implication to me is that Rey burned through the entirety of the Jedi amp to overcome Palpatine. So when Ben resurrected her, I highly doubt that she was resurrected with 1,000 generations-worth of extra Jedi power. I interpreted it as a one-off powerup that was only achievable in Rey's moment of [greatest] need.
Interesting observation about Rey. It may very well have been a temporary power up. Perhaps not, though.
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
my bad, I forgot about the other ridiculous feats performed by mummy-palp. The final feat eclipsed them all in terms of stupidity
Sheev's feats in TROS are mind-boggling, so I understand the frustration.
Hell, a lot of people still debate whether he used the Force to lift the Star Destroyer fleet out from under Exegol's surface. We see Force lightning dance around his fingers as he lifts his hands and then boom! the ships rise.
But there's no official confirmation either way that he did it.
Originally posted by Galan007
The implication to me is that Rey burned through the entirety of the Jedi amp to overcome Palpatine. So when Ben resurrected her, I highly doubt that she was resurrected with 1,000 generations-worth of extra Jedi power. I interpreted it as a one-off powerup that occurred in a moment of her greatest need.
Presumably you're right, Galan. Because now that I think about it, if she were resurrected with the amp, wouldn't she have been able to resurrect Ben?
Originally posted by The_TempestIt's just making me think. At least in RotJ there was a whole plot point surrounding the idea of Luke and Vader teaming up to defeat Sidious. I'm not sure how well they would have done, but they might have made a decent fight out of it.
It's funny you mention that actually. ermmThis is the passage in its entirety. The only things the author seems to care to point here is that the Emperor is totally unimpressed with Ren, discards him with a thought, and then forgets about him entirely the next second. haermm
But Rey and Kylo were, comparatively, so pathetic and weak that the idea of them teaming up isn't even slightly threatening to Sidious. He discards them like a used tissue.
Does the novel mention Snoke at all?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Rey is not more powerful but has the will and the lightsabers to defeat an old one trick fl pony. She represented the Jedi he represented the Sith. She was natural he was unnatural. Light vs. dark. Force tends to balance it out as it did when Ren rose in power Rey shot up too.They were elite warriors not the fools vader killed in Rogue One. Those guys were screaming and flailing their arms who accomplished their mission of getting the disk out of there.
You lack context. Ren defeated her twice in TFA. He was spiritually unbalanced as well as wounded from the bowcaster and a lightsaber.
TLJ Ren looked superior against the praetorian guard. What are you talking about?
In the final film Ren dominates her. She is on her back helpless when Ren feels his mother pass then lets go of his saber. He crushed her. You really lack the facts and the intelligence left to really even have a debate with.
Since when does having two lightsabers increase your power level? Amped!Rey beat Amped!Sidious. Before she got her amp he was casually dominating her and Kylo.
Elite warriors? Lmao. Name some of their feats.
Injured, sure. And she was completely untrained. She had never held a lightsaber before and out-dueled him. I can't even image how badly someone like Vader would rape this loser.
TLJ Ren was getting choked out by a guard and had to be saved by Rey.
In the final film he gets stabbed and has to be saved by Rey's superior knowledge of the Force. Come up with some more excuses, Quanny.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
It's just making me think. At least in RotJ there was a whole plot point surrounding the idea of Luke and Vader teaming up to defeat Sidious. I'm not sure how well they would have done, but they might have made a decent fight out of it.But Rey and Kylo were, comparatively, so pathetic and weak that the idea of them teaming up isn't even slightly threatening to Sidious. He discards them like a used tissue.
Does the novel mention Snoke at all?
It's interesting, because Ren parrots Vader (naturally) by making Rey the same offer Vader made Luke: "Join me and we'll kill the Emperor together."
...Then we see how well they do when the moment comes, which is awkward af. ermm
And yeah, Snoke is mentioned a few times. Had to dig up some of the more pertinent quotes:
Basically, the gist is Snoke was the Emperor's pawn and puppet. A disposable minion to serve as Kylo's final test. Even Kylo apparently recognizes that all of Snoke's achievements were ultimately Palpatine's.
Originally posted by Dominis
The_Tempest and ILS, which would you guys say is the better feat: TKing Maul and Opress or Rey and Kylo?
Damn good question. They're probably comparable since Maul and Savage have Force feats on par with Kylo and Rey's prior to her amp from the dead Jedi.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
It's just making me think. At least in RotJ there was a whole plot point surrounding the idea of Luke and Vader teaming up to defeat Sidious. I'm not sure how well they would have done, but they might have made a decent fight out of it.
according to this new canon, palpatine apparently could have stomped them both in a nanosecond with his right hand while blowing up the rebel fleet with his left
Originally posted by PsychotronIt does not. It just shows she had the necessary equipment and power to summon the other to defeat him.
Since when does having two lightsabers increase your power level? Amped!Rey beat Amped!Sidious. Before she got her amp he was casually dominating her and Kylo.Elite warriors? Lmao. Name some of their feats.
Injured, sure. And she was completely untrained. She had never held a lightsaber before and out-dueled him. I can't even image how badly someone like Vader would rape this loser.
TLJ Ren was getting choked out by a guard and had to be saved by Rey.
In the final film he gets stabbed and has to be saved by Rey's superior knowledge of the Force. Come up with some more excuses, Quanny.
Palpatine stole power from them. Undeniable. He lost despite the clear external amp from the dyad.
Ren was unbalanced, injured. He just killed his father. Couple that with two injuries her connection the force and we see why it was possible given those circumstances.
Vader never bested any respectable force user. Not once. He is exaggerated due to nostalgia.
He was taking three at a time on she struggled with just one a few times. Watch the scene Ren faces more and looks far better but I doubt you even noticed. You do not seem capable of assessing the facts objectively.
You ignore the context so continue to live in a fantasy world of your own making.
Ren is at the top unamped list.
Originally posted by Bashar TegAh I see, so not much different from Reylo then.
according to this new canon, palpatine apparently could have stomped them both in a nanosecond with his right hand while blowing up the rebel fleet with his left
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's interesting, because Ren parrots Vader (naturally) by making Rey the same offer Vader made Luke: "Join me and we'll kill the Emperor together."...Then we see how well they do when the moment comes, which is awkward af. ermm
And yeah, Snoke is mentioned a few times. Had to dig up some of the more pertinent quotes:
Basically, the gist is Snoke was the Emperor's pawn and puppet. A disposable minion to serve as Kylo's final test. Even Kylo apparently recognizes that all of Snoke's achievements were ultimately Palpatine's.
Damn good question. They're probably comparable since Maul and Savage have Force feats on par with Kylo and Rey's prior to her amp from the dead Jedi.
Even Snoke is pathetic.
I don't think Rey or Ren were even close to ready to fight the Emperor. Maybe if Kylo had taken the time to learn how to construct a lightsaber correctly and brush up on how to make a half-decent Force shield he would have been more useful.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Ah I see, so not much different from Reylo then.😱
Even Snoke is pathetic.
I don't think Rey or Ren were even close to ready to fight the Emperor. Maybe if Kylo had taken the time to learn how to construct a lightsaber correctly and brush up on how to make a half-decent Force shield he would have been more useful.
Yeah, the movie and book are both very unflattering to Snoke.
Also interestingly, the novel explains that the Emperor is able to communicate with Ren across time and space, just like Rey... except it also notes, unlike Rey, Sidious doesn't require a connection to a dyad to do it. 😖
The text also flatly says Snoke was unable to do it.
With all this in mind, I'm not sure if Snoke, Rey, and Ben together would be enough to defeat the Emperor without Rey's Jedi amp. ermm
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Damn good question. They're probably comparable since Maul and Savage have Force feats on par with Kylo and Rey's prior to her amp from the dead Jedi.
Palpatine be snatching up force users left and right: Dooku, Maul & Savage, Ben & Rey. He's also blitzed three jedi masters, nearly overwhelmed Yoda by throwing a bunch of senate vehicles, forced Ahsoka and Ezra to run despite being in another dimension.
He's arguably number one even before feeding off of Rey and Ben's dyad.
Originally posted by Bashar TegYeah, no one really cares for them. They are just meant to make more money. Movie is only thing that matters and we clearly see the dyad give him additional power he is not capable of innately.
while i have seen no evidence of amping, iirc film novelizations do not serve as evidence in movie versus. not 100% certain, though
Originally posted by Bashar Teg
while i have seen no evidence of amping, iirc film novelizations do not serve as evidence in movie versus. not 100% certain, though
Yeah, I'm only citing the novel to corroborate stuff the film clearly depicts. We see from the film alone that Rey and Ben are helpless against Sidious even before he's restored, since he manhandles them with the Force and they're helpless against him.
All the canon novelization does is literally spell it out with words what we literally see on-screen.
Same thing for Rey's amp at the end of the movie. Sidious says he's "all the Sith," but we don't see him commune with the spirits of any Sith. Instead, we see Rey try to establish communication with the ghosts of Jedi past at both the beginning and end of the film.
Then we see her experience a vision where she hears voices from Jedi past (including people she's never met before, like Mace Windu, Yoda, Kanan, Anakin, etc.).
Then she goes from being curbstomped by a weakened Sidious to being able to stand toe-to-toe with a restored Sidious. The amp is there, the novel just provides written words to corroborate.
Originally posted by Dominis
Palpatine be snatching up force users left and right: Dooku, Maul & Savage, Ben & Rey. He's also blitzed three jedi masters, nearly overwhelmed Yoda by throwing a bunch of senate vehicles, forced Ahsoka and Ezra to run despite being in another dimension.He's arguably number one even before feeding off of Rey and Ben's dyad.
Movie-wise, he's definitely number one.
In fact, if we're discarding the corroboration by the novelization, it actually makes the case for Sidious stronger since he says the dyad will "restore the one true Emperor," not "empower the one true Emperor." 😖