!!!The Official Dragon Ball vs. Comics Thread!!!

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil

Sooo you're completely ignoring what Goku and Beerus Punches were doing and The Possibility of further destruction they could of cause?

No, I'm not ignoring that at all.

My first argument is: that's not Gokus regular power. When an explosion goes off, it doesn't get stronger the further it travels from its source. It wears off and gets weaker. What we saw during Gokus and Beerus' fight was some kind of mystical non-sense... which is fine... and can very well universal power, I don't care. But it straight up does not mean that a Kamehameha fired by Goku can destroy a universe or something.

Just think logically about it... If that destructive power needs to grow to universal level first the further it travels, who knows how weak it was at the very beginning when it left Gokus and Beerus fighting area? Fact is that it was weak, because it didn't destroy anything around them. It caused an earthquake and some tsunamis.

My second argument is: Why would a high herald care about that power? They're at the center of that fight at that point. Imagine Hyperion fighting Goku and Goku releases that power. Will Hyperion bother about power, which creates earthquakes and tsunamis? Of course not. He would punch a hole through Gokus chest. And then once Gokus power has become universal and destroyed the universe, Hyperion survives it anyway, because he survived two universes exploding.

Also...

Can someone show me a Dragonball character destroying a planet with a punch? You know, the same way Gladiator or Beta Ray Bill do it? Or how about surviving being punched with enough physical force to destroy a planet? There are over 400 episodes of the show. There has to be something, right? We're talking about casual universe busters here, are we not?

No? Hmmm. That's weird.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Ok so my question then is this.

We have canon power level readings for DBZ characters, right? Goku at one level is 20,000, SSJ2 is 40,000, whatever. We then scale off that, and we ignore low showings - and we define the low showings as being incompatible with the power level readings. Ok.

How then is that different to handbook arguing? I have s copy here that says Luke Cage is class 50....but in a forum fight, I'd be laughed at for using handbook power levels.

If it is because the DBZ power levels are "in universe"....how then is it different from Reed saying Sentry is outputting a million suns, and WWH is matching him?

You're overthinking it.

My main issue with power scaling is... First off, it's not portrayed the same way in the manga / anime as Dragonball fanboys make it sound like. They say that base Goku had a power level of 10. Super Saiyan Goku got a x50 boost, so Super Saiyan Goku had a power level of 500 now. With base Goku being able to destroy a planet, Super Saiyan Goku must be able to destroy a solar system. And then Super Saiyan God Goku must be able to destroy a universe and easily be abstract Marvel characters like Death, Eternity and so on.

That's not implying power scaling... That's using no limits fallacy. And they completely ignore the FACT, that Dragonball characters NEVER bust anything more than a planet. Their ONLY saving grace is a mystical encounter between Beerus and Goku, which wasn't about power any longer, because what we saw there is not how power works.

What they do is the equivalent of what RealityWarper was doing: "Because Sentry defeated Molecule Man, his power level must be higher and therefore he must be an +multiversal character." But that's not how the Sentry is portrayed. If he was, he wouldn't even notice characters like Thor, Gladiator, Quasar and so on. In Annihilation Scourge we've seen it again that Sentry is above such character by quite a bit, but he still has his limits, even if those are ambigous.

In the minds of Dragonball fanboys there are no limits for these characters. These characters beat Galactus with a Kamehameha / Final Flash, even though they can't even survive the destructions of planets. I mean... look at Frieza destroying planet Vegeta:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCUd2mxkl3o

How many super saiyans were there? How many of them were more powerful than Muten Roshi, who can bust a moon? They were all planet busters, yet they all died during a planetary explosion. And they died rather quickly according to Friezas scouter, so it's not as if they suffocated after minutes. They died with their planet.

@Enzuru...

Beerus and Goku attack did destroy things unless you dont consider planets and suns things...

[https://youtu.be/bW2c3_PyW3Q]

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok so my question then is this.

We have canon power level readings for DBZ characters, right? Goku at one level is 20,000, SSJ2 is 40,000, whatever. We then scale off that, and we ignore low showings - and we define the low showings as being incompatible with the power level readings. Ok.

How then is that different to handbook arguing? I have s copy here that says Luke Cage is class 50....but in a forum fight, I'd be laughed at for using handbook power levels.

If it is because the DBZ power levels are "in universe"....how then is it different from Reed saying Sentry is outputting a million suns, and WWH is matching him?

-Moon-busting(with effort) can be accomplished with a PL of 180 (ie. Roshi)
-Moon-Busting(casually) can be accomplished with a PL of 329 (ie. Piccolo)
-Planet-busting(with effort) can be accomplished with a PL of 18,000 (ie. Vegeta)
-Planet-busting(casually) can be accomplished with a PL of 530,000 (ie. 1st form Freeza)
-Solar system-busting(with effort) can be accomplished with SS2-level power (ie. SPC)
-Solar system-busting(with far less effort) can logically be accomplished with SS3-level power.

It wasn't until DBS that true galactic/universal powers were introduced, as evident by the fight between a massively suppressed Beerus and n00b-SSG Goku.

*Anything in between the above just comes down to the ease in which a feat can be preformed. For example, Vegeta at the beginning of the Namek saga had a PL of 24,000, so we can say that he could have logically destroyed the earth easier than he could have with a PL of 18k.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok so my question then is this.

We have canon power level readings for DBZ characters, right? Goku at one level is 20,000, SSJ2 is 40,000, whatever. We then scale off that, and we ignore low showings - and we define the low showings as being incompatible with the power level readings. Ok.

How then is that different to handbook arguing? I have s copy here that says Luke Cage is class 50....but in a forum fight, I'd be laughed at for using handbook power levels.

If it is because the DBZ power levels are "in universe"....how then is it different from Reed saying Sentry is outputting a million suns, and WWH is matching him?

Power scaling with power levels is a bad idea for DBZ. Having twice the power doesn't mean for example you have twice the feats. In the Buu saga they introduced a denomination known as kili. According to babadi 300 kili is the minimum to destroy a planet and Goku was rated at around 3000 kili in his ssj. So, assuming power scaling Goku would only be around the ballpark of 10 times the baseline for planet busting in the Buu saga.

Originally posted by carver9

@Enzuru...

Beerus and Goku attack did destroy things unless you dont consider planets and suns things...

[https://youtu.be/bW2c3_PyW3Q]

Write my name wrong one more time and I'm going to slap the shit out of you.

Also learn to read. I have time and time again written that these mystical universe busting waves were at their weakest at the center. At the center, where no high herald would be affected by them. The fight doesn't start with a high herald being at the edge of the universe, Goku then clapping his hands together and killing the high herald with universal waves at the edge of the universe. No, it starts in close quarters, where the high herald just slaps Gokus head off. Even if Goku manages to release that energy, what does it matter? It does not destroy planets and near Goku. It needs time (well, distance actually) to grow in power.

Originally posted by Galan007

-Planet-busting(casually) can be accomplished with a PL of 530,000 (ie. 1st form Freeza)
-Solar system-busting(with effort) can be accomplished with SS2-level power (ie. SPC)

*Anything in between the above just comes down to the ease in which a feat can be preformed. For example, Vegeta at the beginning of the Namek saga had a PL of 24,000, so we can say that he could have logically destroyed the earth easier than he could have with a PL of 18k.

And that's where those arguments start falling apart.

1. Frieza (first form) fired an energy ball at planet Vegeta and destroyed a good chunk of it. Then the planet exploded. That's him destroying the planet, but it's not like... him engulfing the planet in power and totally erradicating it.

THEN... Frieza (final form, after having additionally trained to increase his power – if I remember correctly) doesn't just casually bust Earth with the snap of his fingers. Which is something he should be capable off, if power scaling worked properly. No, Frieza attacks the Earths core and the planet blows up. Super Saiyan God Vegeta, who shouldn't even notice it, dies during the explosion. Yeah, go ahead and make the argument that he suffocated in deep space, but eh... you know.

2. Why are we giving credit to statements? If statements were a thing, then Sentry has the power of a million exploding suns. Do you know what one exploding sun does? The destruction it causes? And now imagine what one million do. And it doesn't even matter if Sentry has that power or not. He has never properly shown it.

Neither did Cell. Cell said that he can bust a solar system, but in the end of the day... Cell in his second form had to self-destruct (as in KILL HIMSELF) and also kinda power around for a whole minute, until he blew up in a planetary explosion. The galaxy didn't die. Just King Kaios planetoid in heaven alongside with Goku, who *gasp* didn't survive. Is Goku now all of a sudden only able to die from galaxy level damage? Power scaling must make it so, right? Saiyans died on planet Vegeta, but Goku is more powerful, hence he must survive it. But what about Super Saiyan God Vegeta? He also died during a planetary level explosion.

We aren't talking about inconsistencies here... We're talking about an on-going theme of planets being blown up by EVERYONE AND THEIR MOM in Dragonball. And EVERYONE AND THEIR MOM DYING during these explosions. And what Dragonball fanboys do is add up imaginative math numbers, which don't matter anything, all to make it sound more impressive than it really is... :-7

For the longest time people have been claiming that Broly has destroyed a galaxy. And Broly is my favorite anime character, so I wouldn't mind him having the power to destroy a galaxy. But what was actually the case was him terrorizing the galaxy and destroying planets one by one.

Planet, planet, planet, planet, planet, planet, planet, planet.

The Cell that threatened to destroy the Solar System is much Much stronger than the one that self-destructed fyi.

Originally posted by Classic NES
Power scaling with power levels is a bad idea for DBZ. Having twice the power doesn't mean for example you have twice the feats. In the Buu saga they introduced a denomination known as kili. According to babadi 300 kili is the minimum to destroy a planet and Goku was rated at around 3000 kili in his ssj. So, assuming power scaling Goku would only be around the ballpark of 10 times the baseline for planet busting in the Buu saga.

I would've liked to have gotten a rating for his full SS1 power instead just his baseline SS1 power.

Originally posted by Classic NES

The Cell that threatened to destroy the Solar System is much Much stronger than the one that self-destructed fyi.

I don't doubt that he is. And that's not my argument. My argument is that based on power scaling Second Form Cell should be more than powerful enough to EASILY destroy the Earth in an INSTANT. But he didn't do that.

But whatever. I'm bored and done harrassing Dragonball fanboys with stylish knowledge bombs. You bois go ahead and stroke and tell yourself how Goku beats Lifebringer Galactus with a single attack, because hurrrdurrr power level x9000.

Enzeru out.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ That kili rating was also given just after Goku had initially transformed into SS1 -- he hadn't even powered up at all while in that state.

I would've liked to have gotten a rating for his full SS1 power instead just his baseline SS1 power.

I don't think Toriyama worked out the numbers well. Imo, we can guesstimate based on feats and statements on how strong they are without scaling the numbers.

Originally posted by Enzeru
I don't doubt that he is. And that's not my argument. My argument is that based on power scaling Second Form Cell should be more than powerful enough to EASILY destroy the Earth in an INSTANT. But he didn't do that.

But whatever. I'm bored and done harrassing Dragonball fanboys with stylish knowledge bombs. You bois go ahead and stroke and tell yourself how Goku beats Lifebringer Galactus with a single attack, because hurrrdurrr power level x9000.

Enzeru out.

Power scaling by numbers is bs. But, we know that DBZ characters as they get stronger can do more and more destruction with less and less effort. Using the Manga we see that Vegeta had to power up and aim at the earth's surface (most likely targetting it's core) to destroy it in the Saiyan and Frieza Saga/ç·¨. In the Cell saga/ç·¨ he had to narrow the arc of his attack or else it would have destroyed the planet. So, we went from needing to aim at the core to destroy a planet to being able to destroy it without aiming at the core. So, clearly, he's demonstrably stronger.

Originally posted by Enzeru
{snip}

-It's pretty obvious that you don't actually have a grasp on what 'canon' means in the context of DB.
-You're still trying to use the same, tired "collateral damage iz everything!!!!" argument(which doesn't even hold up in comics, btw.)
-You don't seem to have a clear comprehension of anything I'm saying here, and keep dodging/deflecting for whatever reason.

tl;dr
There's really nothing more for me to say at this point. It's all a waste anyway.

...But them stoopid, biased DB fans are toats the worst, amiright? 👆

Originally posted by Enzeru
Write my name wrong one more time and I'm going to slap the shit out of you.

Also learn to read. I have time and time again written that these mystical universe busting waves were at their weakest at the center. At the center, where no high herald would be affected by them. The fight doesn't start with a high herald being at the edge of the universe, Goku then clapping his hands together and killing the high herald with universal waves at the edge of the universe. No, it starts in close quarters, where the high herald just slaps Gokus head off. Even if Goku manages to release that energy, what does it matter? It does not destroy planets and near Goku. It needs time (well, distance actually) to grow in power.

And that's where those arguments start falling apart.

1. Frieza (first form) fired an energy ball at planet Vegeta and destroyed a good chunk of it. Then the planet exploded. That's him destroying the planet, but it's not like... him engulfing the planet in power and totally erradicating it.

THEN... Frieza (final form, after having additionally trained to increase his power – if I remember correctly) doesn't just casually bust Earth with the snap of his fingers. Which is something he should be capable off, if power scaling worked properly. No, Frieza attacks the Earths core and the planet blows up. Super Saiyan God Vegeta, who shouldn't even notice it, dies during the explosion. Yeah, go ahead and make the argument that he suffocated in deep space, but eh... you know.

2. Why are we giving credit to statements? If statements were a thing, then Sentry has the power of a million exploding suns. Do you know what one exploding sun does? The destruction it causes? And now imagine what one million do. And it doesn't even matter if Sentry has that power or not. He has never properly shown it.

Neither did Cell. Cell said that he can bust a solar system, but in the end of the day... Cell in his second form had to self-destruct (as in KILL HIMSELF) and also kinda power around for a whole minute, until he blew up in a planetary explosion. The galaxy didn't die. Just King Kaios planetoid in heaven alongside with Goku, who *gasp* didn't survive. Is Goku now all of a sudden only able to die from galaxy level damage? Power scaling must make it so, right? Saiyans died on planet Vegeta, but Goku is more powerful, hence he must survive it. But what about Super Saiyan God Vegeta? He also died during a planetary level explosion.

We aren't talking about inconsistencies here... We're talking about an on-going theme of planets being blown up by EVERYONE AND THEIR MOM in Dragonball. And EVERYONE AND THEIR MOM DYING during these explosions. And what Dragonball fanboys do is add up imaginative math numbers, which don't matter anything, all to make it sound more impressive than it really is... :-7

For the longest time people have been claiming that Broly has destroyed a galaxy. And Broly is my favorite anime character, so I wouldn't mind him having the power to destroy a galaxy. But what was actually the case was him terrorizing the galaxy and destroying planets one by one.

Planet, planet, planet, planet, planet, planet, planet, planet.

Actually, Frieza was never stated or indicated to have directed his energy at the center of the Earth. He palmed it and it blew. If you're gonna go there, he held back the vast majority of his power on Namek because he still wanted to beat Goku.
they've been surviving planet busting blasts since the Saiyan Saga. It started with Scouter Vegeta surviving Goku's ×4 Kaiō-ken Kamehameha which overpowered his full power Galick Gun which could already overkill the Earth.

And that's really what all this comes back to, overkilling the planet. Frieza already did it to Planet Vegeta, and that would be replicated at various levels from anyone above base planet busting level going forward. Vegeta didn't destroy Cell's arm, wing and a portion of his body because he could destroy the Earth. He destroyed those things because he was powerful enough and naturally at that overkilling level appropriate for their standards by then which vastly eclipsed base Frieza's ability to effortlessly eradicate even planets of Super-Jupiter level density like Planet Vegeta.

their destructive power naturally increases along with their Ki increases and that they've continued to far exceed the ability to merely destroy a planet. A.k.a., overkilling a planet.

Originally posted by Classic NES
I don't think Toriyama worked out the numbers well. Imo, we can guesstimate based on feats and statements on how strong they are without scaling the numbers.

As of Z we know:
It takes a minimum PL of 180 to destroy the moon(Roshi), a minimum PL of 18,000 to destroy the Earth(Saiyan saga Vegeta), and a minimum of SS2-level power to destroy the solar system(SPC).

Anything in between is just semantics(ie. discussing the ease in which a character can preform those feats), and anything above SS2-level power really just comes down to how easily you think a stronger character(ie. SS3 Goku, SS3 Gotenks, or Ultimate Gohan) could wipe out the solar system, and/or how much more than a solar system said characters could destroy(like, how far above solar system level do you think upper-echelon Z characters like Boohan and Vegito were, given that they were several orders of magnitude beyond SPC)..?

...Then when you get to DBS, scaling just goes off the f*cking rails entirely, when even the lowest end God-tier power(in the very first arc) threatened to obliterate the entire cosmos.

Originally posted by Classic NES
Power scaling with power levels is a bad idea for DBZ. Having twice the power doesn't mean for example you have twice the feats.

look at ssj2 gohan vs perfect cell.

But sometimes, even being less than twice as powerful than the other character is enough to easily stomp him/no-sell his attacks.

So it *can* be argued that being twice as powerful gives you way more than just "twice the feats".

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
its not always a direct relation. but at the same time; a character who twice as strong as another character is going to easily swat away any energy attacks the weaker character throws at them, and go onto stomp them without effort.

look at ssj2 gohan vs perfect cell.

Originally posted by LordGod
Not that it matters but wasn't Gohan more than twice as strong as Cell? Or did it just seem that way?

PC was stronger than ssj Gohan , ssj2 Gohan is 2* ssj Gohan. Ergo, ssj2 Gohan couldn't have been 2* cell

Originally posted by LordGod
Not that it matters but wasn't Gohan more than twice as strong as Cell? Or did it just seem that way?

You don't need to be twice as strong as your opponent in Dragon Ball in order to stomp him.

The official multiplier for SSJ2 = 2x SSJ1 (even though many dislike it being so "low"😉.

Tori said that when you get to the gods like God tier red Goku, their powers are Omnipotent

Originally posted by Genii96
PC was stronger than ssj Gohan , ssj2 Gohan is 2* ssj Gohan. Ergo, ssj2 Gohan couldn't have been 2* cell

SS2 Gohan was less than 2x Perfect Cell, and still stomped him with hardly any effort whatsoever. Same with Ultimate Gohan and Super Boo -- there was less than a 2x difference there as well, and Gohan was still handing Boo his ass.

A full 2x difference in power is pretty much insurmountable. The weaker character literally cannot do a damn thing to the stronger character.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You don't need to be twice as strong as your opponent in Dragon Ball in order to stomp him.

Look at Vegeta vs. Cui, and Vegeta vs. Dodoria.

Originally posted by carver9
Tori said that when you get to the gods like God tier red Goku, their powers are Omnipotent