I haven't read this thread, I missed the whole discussion, not gonna read it, too long
just want to add this
DB focus on fewer aspect of power levels than comic books, planet/star/solar system destroying, was from energy projection,
you can't powerscale like:
oh master roshi destroyed a moon, and that was during db, and you need someone like mid herald to do that.
now imagine super saiyan 4 goku or blue hair vegita who are billions upon billions times more powerful than master roshi during world martial arts tournaments.
and do scaling that way
that's retarded carver logic
this kinda feats don't show up frequently in dbz, and even if it does, it makes no sense or add little substances to the fight
like when Cell said he could destroy solar system, yet his energy clash with gohan only leave a big dent on the ground, or shockwaves of beerus and goku fight would destroy the universe but nearby planet was fine?
look I get it collateral damage don't mean shit, but neither does dbz power scaling.
let's take a step back and really look at this, dbz is superior in energy projection compare to marvel and dc characters that are on the same level
speed wise, dc>dbz>marvel
dbz ki durability is completely different than physical durability, characters are way better at taking energy blast than punches, comic is more consistent
what comics shine where dbz doesnt is being more versatile
TP, TK, invisibility, phasing etc etc, someone like surfer alone is more versatile than the entire main cast of dbz
but as far as power level concern, I don't think marvel and dc heralds can defeat dragon ball z above super saiyan 2 level
I think trans and skyfathers are closer to dragon ball super, but someone like mordru or odin is way superior than super broly or jiren with their myriads of exotic abilities
and obviously once you go into cosmic and abstracts, dc and marvel shit on dragon ball
heralds
dragon ball> comics
trans and skyfathers
comics>dragon ball
cosmics and above
comics completely shitstomp dragon ball it's not even funny
also you dont need someone extra powerful to defeat dragon ball
just someone extra haxx is enough to solo the entire dragon ball cast
like say black alice or constantine
Originally posted by SensuiLet's focus a bit since it's hard for the discussion to have specific points when there's walls of text. So, on your position and specific usage of feats when ranking the characters. Because I want to see how you look at them. Just to be sure - because I want to make sure it's in writing -- If I make a Kyle vs Cable, Magneto, Doom, Eradicator, Black Adam, Juggernaut, Morg, Bizarro, Apocalypse, Cyborg Superman, Supergirl, Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, Zod and dozens of others -- your position is that it's valid that Kyle could contain them all because he contained the big-bang and they, evidently, don't have anywhere near that output?
What's crazy about this is we've seen GL's actually do this like Rond Vidar who literally held off the entire Legion of Supervillains, Superboy Prime, and the strongest Chaos Lord Mordru. So people may not like it, they may hate it, they may despise the showing but it still happened. I think Kyle Rayner actually held the Crime Syndicate for a whole day once so he might be able to pull it off too.See at the moment he held that Big Bang, thanks to variable Will Power he was the strongest hero there for a moment since Supes was merging with Kismet. And there is nothing wrong with that Phil.
But, wait...
So one could easily counter with that some of these characters have that level power on their own and bust out anyway. Or characters like Black Adam (through relative character showings being in the same company) may have the strength to smash his best construct
Do you, in those pondering moments, think that the writer simply does not portray Kyle as having big-bang tanking shields, instead of having Black Adam have Multi-Universal busting punches?
Do you, then, understand what a general average would be made of?
I'm asking this question not because I specifically want others to see the absurdity of your position -- but because I want you to understand how comics and feats work.
Because there is no KMC mandate that Herald Level only equals moon level, planet level, or what have you.
Otherwise, Kyle would be in a tier above Galactus.
But, fortunately if we read enough comics, we can eyeball an average, since we're so familiar with them. We can eyeball for example that Kyle isn't operating at levels that he contains Big Bangs, that Superman is not operating at infinite strength etc. We can eye ball how they do against each other, also. We can see that Kyle wouldn't wipe the floor with the entire mid-herald tier, for example, based on how he does against other singular mid-heralds. Kyle is not Raditz-ing them.
We can eyeball that in general portrayals, Martian Manhunter, or Wonder Woman, or Thor, don't get moon-destroying blasts in the face and smile without moving.
But just to check your eyesight...
Do you agree that in average portrayals, Martian Manhunter, or Wonder Woman, or Thor or [*insert high-end herald beings*] don't get moon-destroying blasts in the face and smile without moving.
You're the same guy saying Black Adam punches with big bang fists, so I want to make sure.
You seem to have a problem understanding what a baseline is, and what relative showings are.
As a consequence, you try to shoe-in Dragon Ball and Goku "But what if they were in the comics?! The inconsistency would be there!!"
Well, they're not in the comics. That's just something you'll have to cope with.
They're in a medium in which a character like Piccolo, who'd comfortably be placed in the herald tier, gets sodomized by Raditz without even trying. And Raditz, in turn, would be made to eat shit by Nappa. Who, also in turn, would get one-shotted by Vegeta.
It's not the fault of Dragon Ball that within the rules of that Universe, once you're stronger you generally no-sell every other character that has come before you.
In essence, you have in the Dragon Ball Universe somebody like Freeza, who can solo an almost untold number of Raditz(es), who'd all be around the mid-herald tier.
So, I dunno...
Can Kyle solo a million Wonder Women?
You're completely ignoring relative portrayals [for obvious reasons], and using solely high-end feats, to justify a position that crashes anytime you see that the gap between somebody like Kyle [high herald] and somebody like Black Adam [mid-herald] is -- and I do mean in the most generous way -- thousands to millions of times smaller than somebody like Freeza and the Piccolo who blows up the moon with a casual blast.
powerscaling...not even once...
wonder woman blocked trillions of god shards, who in dragon ball is fast enough to replicate that
let's see dragon ball characters run billions times faster than light
or creates suns or black holes like surfer did
a briefly sundipped superman destroyed a multiverse if we go by statement, does he one shot dragon ball as a whole? this kinda discussion gets retarded
Seems like a lot of time is being wasted on where DB characters fit into the tiering list, instead of just focusing on the individual comic book character(s) it would take to replicate the showings we've seen in DB on average.
For example, we know that Piccolo(with a PL in the 320's) can destroy the moon casually. So we need to figure out who the weakest comic book character is who possesses casual moon-level power... You could say "Bane" here and it wouldn't really matter, because that's just where the initial scaling starts.
Once a baseline comparison for Piccolo is decided on, we can move forward. So for example, if Piccolo = Bane, then who is the weakest comic character who could no-sell all of Bane's attacks and stomp him with no effort whatsoever(like Raditz did to Piccolo)..? Lets say it would take Iron Man to do that -- now we have:
Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.
We would then need to figure out who the weakest character is who can one-shot three Iron Mans simultaneously(like Krillin did to the Saibamen.) Let's say say we decide that it would take Morg to do that -- now we have:
Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.
Then we would need to decide what type of comic character it would take to ragdoll a team consisting of Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo(ie. 4 Morg-level beings), as easily as Nappa did. Let's say that we decide it would take Thanos to do so -- now we have:
Thanos = Nappa > 4 Morgs = Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo >>> 1 Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.
...And that's *just* up to Nappa-level power. We haven't even started discussing the likes of Saiyan saga Goku and Vegeta(each of whom could one-shot Nappa with no effort whatsoever), but that's neither here nor there.
**Obviously these are just arbitrary comic characters that I selected at random, but hopefully you still understand my point. I really don't think coming up with logical comparisons between DB and comics is nearly as complex as some people are trying to make it. /shrug
Think people are having a hard time understanding the difference between averages and high showings. Moon busting is a low showing in DB. Withstanding moon busting attacks is a low showing in DB. Moon busting casually is a high showing in Marvel or DC. Tanking a moon busting attack is a high showing in Marvel or DC. Tanking a moon busting attack is nothing in DB. Also, punching and kicking from someone youre far superior than wont have an effect just like a blast wouldnt. You have to be on that person level.
Versatility means sh** in DB because Piccolo have shown, matter manipulating, TK, TP, everything, and he IS one of the weakest of the Z fighters. Superman nor Gladiator need high end versatility to beat Silver Surfer because the abilities they have warrants a win against him. Once people learn what averages mean vs high end showings, then an argument can be made here. Until then, people are just blurting out crap.
the premise of it is so retarded I thought it's carver typing all of this instead of galan and phil
"hey look here is someone sooooo weak in db that can destroy the freaking moon, and there are people in db millions times more powerful than the guy who destroy the moon. let's see comic books compete with this herp derp"
what's the point of this discussion but wank dbz? it didn't make sense piccolo or master roshi destroy moon in the first place, when their physical combat abilities and durabilities are so weak
if we go by the damage someone can cause, no amount of power scaling compare can compare to superman
a briefly sundipped superman one shotted a multiversal being and supposedly destroyed his multiverse. does that mean he can spank xeno and all the angels together?
dragon ball lack the hell of feats compare to comics, they only have some feats focused on 4 or 5 people, the rest is scaling and guessing
the best speed in dbz was performed by gotenks, guess what he circled the earth in like 20 seconds or so I think, that's garbage speed compare to dc
dyspo is only like slighly faster than lightspeed, does he only compare to jay garrick?
who in dbz can creates suns or black holes like surfer did
who in dbz can block trillions of god shards like wonder woman did
who in dbz can manipulate and awaken the entire space time of the universe like zatanna did in seven soldiers
who in dbz can warp reality like wanda did
Originally posted by Galan007We're trying to find a baseline and the comparative gaps in fights and portrayals between characters to get an accurate assessment on how they scale.
Seems like a lot of time is being wasted on where DB characters fit into the tiering list, instead of just focusing on the individual comic book character(s) it would take to replicate the showings we've seen in DB on average.For example, we know that Piccolo(with a PL in the 320's) can destroy the moon casually. So we need to figure out who the weakest comic book character is who possesses casual moon-level power... You could say "Bane" here and it wouldn't really matter, because that's just where the initial scaling starts.
Once a baseline comparison for Piccolo is decided on, we can move forward. So for example, if Piccolo = Bane, then who is the weakest comic character who could no-sell all of Bane's attacks and stomp him with no effort whatsoever(like Raditz did to Piccolo)..? Lets say it would take Iron Man to do that -- now we have:
Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.We would then need to figure out who the weakest character is who can one-shot three Iron Mans simultaneously(like Krillin did to the Saibamen.) Let's say say we decide that it would take Morg to do that -- now we have:
Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.Then we would need to decide what type of comic character it would take to ragdoll a team consisting of Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo(ie. 4 Morg-level beings), as easily as Nappa did. Let's say that we decide it would take Thanos to do so -- now we have:
Thanos = Nappa > 4 Morgs = Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo >>> 1 Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane....And that's *just* up to Nappa-level power. We haven't even started discussing the likes of Saiyan saga Goku and Vegeta(each of whom could one-shot Nappa with no effort whatsoever), but that's neither here nor there.
**Obviously these are just arbitrary comic characters that I selected at random, but hopefully you still understand my point. I really don't think coming up with logical comparisons between DB and comics is nearly as complex as some people are trying to make it. /shrug
Others want a feat war where Kyle is above Galactus and Black Adam punches above a big bang.
I don't think we can even have a conversation when we're not even talking the same language.
DBZ would completely lose in powersets or feats war with comics
the only way DBZ can gain some sort of upper hand is based on false premise power scaling which only fits for dbz, and that only depend on planet destroying. why should comics follow the same scaling dbz does?
Originally posted by Galan007Thanos = Nappa
I dont even think carver is crazy enough to bz this
Originally posted by MrMind
wally is millions times faster than dyspodoes he solo the tournament of power?
So you answer my question with a question? Anyways, Wally gets crushed. I think you are forgetting the fts from the tournament. A Goku who could barely stand, while in black hair form, TANKED a black hole being thrown on him. Tanked it. Again, he was so weakened, he couldn't stand. Most people in that tournament was capable of stomping him during that instance (black hair mind you). So I doubt Flash would be noticeable in that tourney unless you're reaching for his highest of highs, also known as, desperation. Now answer my question since youre lingering on versatility. Can Superman beat Stardust even though she can create black holes?
Originally posted by MrMindLol, I think you need a xanax. 😉
the premise of it is so retarded I thought it's carver typing all of this instead of galan and phil[b]"hey look here is someone sooooo weak in db that can destroy the freaking moon, and there are people in db millions times more powerful than the guy who destroy the moon. let's see comic books compete with this herp derp"
what's the point of this discussion but wank dbz? it didn't make sense piccolo or master roshi destroy moon in the first place, when their physical combat abilities and durabilities are so weak
if we go by the damage someone can cause, no amount of power scaling compare can compare to superman
a briefly sundipped superman one shotted a multiversal being and supposedly destroyed his multiverse. does that mean he can spank xeno and all the angels together?
dragon ball lack the hell of feats compare to comics, they only have some feats focused on 4 or 5 people, the rest is scaling and guessing
the best speed in dbz was performed by gotenks, guess what he circled the earth in like 20 seconds or so I think, that's garbage speed compare to speed
who in dbz can creates suns or black holes like surfer did
who in dbz can block trillions of god shards like wonder woman did
who in dbz can manipulate and awaken the entire space time of the universe like zatanna did in seven soldiers
who in dbz can warp reality like wanda did [/B]
In the early Saiyan saga, the higher-end characters could moon-bust casually.
In the late Saiyan saga, the higher-end characters could planet-bust with maximum effort.
In the early Namek saga, the higher-end characters could planet-bust casually.
In the late Cell saga, the higher-end characters could solar system-bust with maximum effort.
All of that was canonically shown/stated, so I'm not sure why you have such a problem with the discussion being geared around the level of power these characters can generate?
As I said from the beginning: even if we assume that someone like Nappa has herald-esque energy projection and whatnot, it doesn't make him the unbeatable god of the herald tier by default, lol. Even when you get into DBS, there are still plenty of comic characters who could beat them in a forum setting because they are more versatile and such.
We are just trying to establish a baseline for someone like Saiyan saga Piccolo and work up from there. It doesn't need to be as difficult as some of you guys are making it.
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, I think you need a xanax. 😉In the early Saiyan saga, the higher-end characters could moon-bust casually.
In the late Saiyan saga, the higher-end characters could planet-bust with maximum effort.
In the early Namek saga, the higher-end characters could planet-bust casually.
In the late Cell saga, the higher-end characters could solar system-bust with maximum effort.All of that was canonically shown/stated, so I'm not sure why you have such a problem with the discussion being geared around the level of power these characters can generate?
As I said from the beginning: even if we assume that someone like Nappa has herald-esque energy projection and whatnot, it doesn't make him the unbeatable god of the herald tier by default, lol. Even when you get into DBS, there are still plenty of comic characters who could beat them in a forum setting because they are more versatile and such.
We are just trying to establish a baseline for someone like Saiyan saga Piccolo and work up from there. It doesn't need to be as difficult as some of you guys are making it.
because establishing comics based on db scaling would come to equation like this
Thanos = Nappa > 4 Morgs = Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo >>> 1 Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.
imagine, in a neutral universe, where Nappa and Thanos are fighting evenly lmao
DBZ Characters are ridiculously powerful in terms of energy projection, but they have zero resistance to the hax peeps in comics posses, for example say if Goku's fighting somebody like Monica/Spectrum, By using her EM Non-Visible Gamma, Cosmic, and/or X-Ray high intensity radiation blasts, She can actually ionize the water molecules INSIDE of Goku's body to the point that she can basically transmute those molecules into Hydrogen Peroxide, or Since Monica can actually turn herself into a Neutrino "stream" she CAN do a high intensity electron beam to burn out Goku's heart.