Originally posted by Galan007In the early Saiyan saga, the higher-end characters could moon-bust casually.
In the late Saiyan saga, the higher-end characters could planet-bust with maximum effort.
In the early Namek saga, the higher-end characters could planet-bust casually.
In the late Cell saga, the higher-end characters could solar system-bust with maximum effort.
👆
And all of those are 100% canon feats/statements, without resorting to using filler.
"Once a baseline comparison for Piccolo is decided on, we can move forward. So for example, if Piccolo = Bane, then who is the weakest comic character who could no-sell all of Bane's attacks and stomp him with no effort whatsoever(like Raditz did to Piccolo)..? Lets say it would take Iron Man to do that -- now we have:
Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.
We would then need to figure out who the weakest character is who can one-shot three Iron Mans simultaneously(like Krillin did to the Saibamen.) Let's say say we decide that it would take Morg to do that -- now we have:
Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.
Then we would need to decide what type of comic character it would take to ragdoll a team consisting of Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo(ie. 4 Morg-level beings), as easily as Nappa did. Let's say that we decide it would take Thanos to do so -- now we have:
Thanos = Nappa > 4 Morgs = Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo >>> 1 Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.
"
I think you DB fans are lowballing DB here
there's no way bane can destroy to moon, so Nappa is way more powerful than Thanos 😂
Originally posted by carver9
Think people are having a hard time understanding the difference between averages and high showings. Moon busting is a low showing in DB. Withstanding moon busting attacks is a low showing in DB. Moon busting casually is a high showing in Marvel or DC. Tanking a moon busting attack is a high showing in Marvel or DC. Tanking a moon busting attack is nothing in DB. Also, punching and kicking from someone youre far superior than wont have an effect just like a blast wouldnt. You have to be on that person level.Versatility means sh** in DB because Piccolo have shown, matter manipulating, TK, TP, everything, and he IS one of the weakest of the Z fighters. Superman nor Gladiator need high end versatility to beat Silver Surfer because the abilities they have warrants a win against him. Once people learn what averages mean vs high end showings, then an argument can be made here. Until then, people are just blurting out crap.
Originally posted by MrMindAh, so you're just butthurt(for some reason?) and ranting, then.
"Once a baseline comparison for Piccolo is decided on, we can move forward. So for example, if Piccolo = Bane, then who is the weakest comic character who could no-sell all of Bane's attacks and stomp him with no effort whatsoever(like Raditz did to Piccolo)..? Lets say it would take Iron Man to do that -- now we have:
Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.We would then need to figure out who the weakest character is who can one-shot three Iron Mans simultaneously(like Krillin did to the Saibamen.) Let's say say we decide that it would take Morg to do that -- now we have:
Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.Then we would need to decide what type of comic character it would take to ragdoll a team consisting of Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo(ie. 4 Morg-level beings), as easily as Nappa did. Let's say that we decide it would take Thanos to do so -- now we have:
Thanos = Nappa > 4 Morgs = Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo >>> 1 Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane."
[b]I think you DB fans are lowballing DB here
there's no way bane can destroy to moon, so Nappa is way more powerful than Thanos 😂
[/B]
...Carry on. 👆
Originally posted by MrMind
"Once a baseline comparison for Piccolo is decided on, we can move forward. So for example, if Piccolo = Bane, then who is the weakest comic character who could no-sell all of Bane's attacks and stomp him with no effort whatsoever(like Raditz did to Piccolo)..? Lets say it would take Iron Man to do that -- now we have:
Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.We would then need to figure out who the weakest character is who can one-shot three Iron Mans simultaneously(like Krillin did to the Saibamen.) Let's say say we decide that it would take Morg to do that -- now we have:
Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane.Then we would need to decide what type of comic character it would take to ragdoll a team consisting of Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo(ie. 4 Morg-level beings), as easily as Nappa did. Let's say that we decide it would take Thanos to do so -- now we have:
Thanos = Nappa > 4 Morgs = Krillin+Tien+Gohan+Piccolo >>> 1 Morg = Krillin >> 3 Saibamen = 3 Iron Mans >> 1 Saibamen = Iron Man = Raditz >> Piccolo = moonbuster = Bane."
[b]I think you DB fans are lowballing DB here
there's no way bane can destroy to moon, so Nappa is way more powerful than Thanos 😂
[/B]
I agree👆
I love DBZ but some of this wank here is dumb
Originally posted by MrMind
we have no problem, but you guys are lowballingby your own equation nappa=thanos only if bane can oneshot a moon, but bane can't oneshot a moon, and piccolo can probably oneshot 100 banes, so nappa probably can oneshot thanos
I think that's the baseline we established here
Thanos would one shot Nappa
Originally posted by MrMindI think you're just throwing a hissy fit for some reason, because like I said:
we have no problem, but you guys are lowballingby your own equation nappa=thanos only if bane can oneshot a moon, but bane can't oneshot a moon, and piccolo can probably oneshot 100 banes, so nappa probably can oneshot thanos
I think that's the baseline we established here
Originally posted by Galan007
**Obviously these are just arbitrary comic characters that I selected at random, but hopefully you still understand my point.
I was just using any random characters in that 'scaling' to help people see the bigger picture. You would have seen that part of my post yourself if you weren't getting so damn salty.
Originally posted by Sensui
It is almost impossible. It really is and not just DBZ its imo any shonen jump manga series because they are based on this character stronger than the next as you go on a narrative journey of the character getting stronger and stronger hence the power scaling that is utilized to cover for a lack of feats the further up you go.I'll give you an example of another shonen manga Yu Yu Hakusho. In it there is a character named Toguro who has muscle manipulation as his power. At 100% of his strength he is capable of literally crushing an energy ball powerful enough to destroy a mountain with his chest muscles just by flexing easy.
Where does he rank in DC or Marvel? It's a trick question because if you say heck thats a Top Tier feat and only the best heroes could do that so he must rank at Class 100 levels the Yu Yu Hakusho fan would say ha I got you because you see in the world of Yu Yu Hakusho that character Toguro is only a B-Class level demon and they go all the way to S-Class, which is so strong they can beat 500 A-Class demons, who can beat 500 B-Class Toguro demons at once! My verse is the strongest 😮💨
Then you would ask what is the most powerful feat the S-Class can do? An the Yu Yu Hakusho fan would say oh they can destroy a planet (supposedly, this is stated several times but never seen). And you say thats all? Well in DC or Marvel characters like so and so can do way more than that so No the B-Class isn't comparable to the top Class 100 heroes. The Yu Yu Hakusho fan would say but Toguro's feat which is a BASELINE for weak fodder B-Class demons was agreed upon that it was a feat worthy of being Class 100? How are the characters still only Class 100 at A-S Class powerlevels when they can destroy 500 B-Class demons with a single punch?
The Power Scaling says they should be much greater in DC or Marvel but the FEAT & STATEMENTS of only being capable of destroying the Earth at maximum power at S-Class says otherwise.
Thats the exact same issue with DBZ and all shonens imo, the Lantern feats don't go away just because you're comparing them to Anime characters otherwise they shouldn't be used when compared to Marvel characters or Invincible characters since that's not eithers average why are they being discussed and disected in 99% of threads if they don't represent the characters average (which is a head cannon as there is no average between a Thor that is nearly speed blitzed by Spiderman or Mongoose and one that is fighting Gorr in space).
Flash is one of the worse at this (Barry, Wally, whoever)...He has problems with fighting the Rogues consistently but then at any time a writer wants to has the character warp the Multiverse because of Speed Force shenanigans.
Where does he rank specifically in DBZ?
Well on KMC he's not going to be listed at abstract/skyfather tiers or even trans tiers but placed into the all ambigous Herald Level Tier. Which seems to be just a catch all for any top tier hero no matter what type of feats they perform. So why should DBZ be any different?
Comics characters don't get stronger in the same sense. Normal Thor isn't stronger today than he was in 80s. Superman did get stronger but hardly to the same level.
So either you start talking like Kyle Rayner fighting SSGSSJ Goku (which makes no sense) or start a baseline. Superman fighting Cell saga Goku or Buu saga Goku is a very different proposition for Superman but it's the same for Goku.
So either you put comics top tiers at the very echelons of DBZ power starting with each arc or stop pretending that they are at the same level even though Goku gets stronger and Superman doesn't.
This is why I made my own headcanon gap so big in the important herald "tier" from Saiyan Saga Vegeta to Namek.
Because no matter how much things get conveyed or the syllogistics get hammered out, one character contained a big bang and he was weaker than this character who got knocked out by a shadow moon exploding.
In the same story the Probes were eating Kyle's ass for lunch but somehow it makes sense to assume his baseline was enough to contain the totality of all the Probes' energy and their master. Do the Probes simultaneously lose their feats against Kyle while gaining feats? Does Kyle lose all his bad feats against Doomsday as well since he was definitively portrayed worlds beyond Doomsday, Darkseid and Superman (pre-amp)? How do you put this back into the context of comics while still using it on the boards?
These types of things are fun for a feat off, but actually trying to apply it in the context of characters seems foolhardy at best. It turns into the weird Alberto shit sites where every character is scaled off their absolute single best feat and every lower feat is ignored. Did you know everyone who's beaten Thor in the last few years actually scales above stopping supernovas casually?
But I digress, outliers will always be a part of the boards as long as one of the hundreds of cooks are feeling whimsical enough.
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What Gal Phildo are trying to do is connect to the other side by talking about how both mediums work at their cores. One is inconsistent due to the nature of the company while one is built on scaling. You don't have to like scaling, but it doesn't mean the characters don't get hundreds of times stronger. The conversation is basically one side trying to strip it down and work from there to the other side pulling away because of high feats and scaling being shit.
And on the inconsistency note, then when do we start counting who's more powerful? If a character who could only blow up moons came onto the scene and repeatedly ragdolled Hal, would he then scale above a big bang, or would it not count because of Kyle containing a big bang? If your first thought at a character losing is that it's pis because of his highest feat ever, then you're reading comics wrong.
I understand where Sensei is coming from as most of it mirrors my own dilemmas with shoving DB characters into some arbitrary level with definable limits at both ends, but at the same time do we believe 0.01 percent of showings define a character or do we believe you can approximate some sort of level based on an actual average?
As for scaling, yes it might be gay, and yes those characters who turn into George Floyd in space probably won't be causing cosmic chaos, but it's not needed. They never have to destroy a planet again since they've shown they can do it early, and it's established by the same guy.
I've had my issues with collateral damage in the past, but some things just can't spread their energy out in a wide enough radius. That doesn't mean the focal point of the attack would be less however. An example of this is the UN vs IG. This example is seen many times in DB in the form of Vegeta's sacrifice being the most powerful attack up to that point in DB but only causing a kilometer at best of damage. Kid Buu's attack being completely undeflectable to SS Goku and Vegeta but only being contained to the area around Earth, whereas Frieza can casually kick away a Vegeta attack with enough power to destroy Namek. Hell Frieza destroying Planet Vegeta was bigger than the Kid Buu attack in every way but he's still thousands of times weaker.
They don't need to continuously keep ramping up their attacks because we know that it meets a criteria at the bare minimum level in DB. Even the specific example has a moon being destroyed with the same attack that Raditz and the surrounding landscape took, and that's because these characters can focus their damage into a very small area. It's very much like Superman in that way. Superman can destroy anything as long as he has something to punch but he can't just punch into the sky and destroy a solar system. He needs something to hit, but his focused attacks (lolpunches) are still portrayed very high. His HV will always be insanely high but it can't cause widespread cosmic damage instantly because it's simply not big enough.
It's quite possible characters in Z can't spread their energy out to encompass anything bigger than a planet, but that doesn't mean the focused destructive power in those couple feet can't match something in sheer power that could destroy a sun. Plus you know wasting your energy creating a blast big enough to swallow a solar system when you're batting an ant. If Raditz was on the moon when Piccolo blasted it, then he would have actually taken less of the energy than he did because only a small percentage would have hit him.
Something something something, I'm sure I missed a lot as all this was written off memory from what I read before I started.
Anyway, I see the merits of both sides but if you're actually trying to figure something out someone is going to have to play the game.
And Crazy Danielle still sucks.
Originally posted by Galan007
I think you're just throwing a hissy fit for some reason, because like I said:I was just using any random characters in that 'scaling' to help people see the bigger picture. You would have seen that part of my post yourself if you weren't getting so damn salty.
I'm not salty, I'm hungover with chest pain and coughing
you know I respect you Galan 👆
I just think the premise is kinda false
just recently Wonder Woman lasso'd Phantom Stranger, the same Phantom Strange who can threaten the entire creation
just recently Bizarro beat up Trigon, the same Trigon that conquered countless dimensions
where do you think Phantom Stranger and Trigon rank in DB? probably above angels or even omni kings right?
where do you think Bizarro or WW rank among DB?
Originally posted by MrMind👆
I'm not salty, I'm hungover with chest pain and coughingyou know I respect you Galan 👆
I just think the premise is kinda false
just recently Wonder Woman lasso'd Phantom Stranger, the same Phantom Strange who can threaten the entire creation
just recently Bizarro beat up Trigon, the same Trigon that conquered countless dimensions
where do you think Phantom Stranger and Trigon rank in DB? probably above angels or even omni kings right?
where do you think Bizarro or WW rank among DB?
That's why I/we are simply asking who the weakest comic character is that can destroy the moon with a casual attack -- because that will help us figure out what 'level' of comic book power/energy projection is required to match Piccolo's feat.
As mentioned, this is just to establish a baseline. Then we can start scaling from there.
Originally posted by Galan007
👆That's why I/we are simply asking who the weakest comic character is that can destroy the moon with a casual attack -- because that will help us figure out what 'level' of comic book power/energy projection is required to match Piccolo's feat.
As mentioned, this is just to establish a baseline. Then we can start scaling from there.
well rookie Tom Kalmaku can recreates OA
so an average green lantern can moon bust imo, consider the veteran one like john stewart created solar system construct
so that's the baseline
Originally posted by MrMind
I'm not salty, I'm hungover with chest pain and coughingyou know I respect you Galan 👆
I just think the premise is kinda false
just recently Wonder Woman lasso'd Phantom Stranger, the same Phantom Strange who can threaten the entire creation
just recently Bizarro beat up Trigon, the same Trigon that conquered countless dimensions
where do you think Phantom Stranger and Trigon rank in DB? probably above angels or even omni kings right?
where do you think Bizarro or WW rank among DB?
Is Wonder Woman = to Phantom Stranger? Is Bizarro equal to Trigon? If not, why even mention this? Why are you having a hard time understanding outliers?
Originally posted by MrMind
well rookie Tom Kalmaku can recreates OAso an average green lantern can moon bust imo, consider the veteran one like john stewart created solar system construct
so that's the baseline