Originally posted by DamborgsonIt was, imo.
By that point Krillin was stronger than 13,000 I believe.
V-Jump has Krillin's PL at 75,000 "and still rising", which is a bit more in-line with what we saw after Guru unlocked him. I believe that 13,000 was just the starting point after the unlock, and Krillin's power continued growing afterward(same with Gohan's.)
After all, Krillin, who was actively pulling his punches at the time as to not harm Goku's body, didn't really have any issues contending with Ginku:
https://i.imgur.com/lCApP9G.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vS4H45P.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8tsmWl2.jpg
And Ginku had a PL of 23,000:
https://i.imgur.com/xlQPa8V.jpg
...Which would have been more than enough to casually throttle Krillin if his PL were only 13,000.
Additionally, Krillin didn't even powerup at all before fighting Ginku -- meaning that his baseline power must have been at least 23k at the time as well. That's just how it works in DB.
And Vegeta himself later stated that the powers of BOTH Krillin and Gohan perpetually kept rising throughout the arc:
https://i.imgur.com/PiJqNkA.jpg
So basically, we have the Daizenshuu stating that Krillin's PL was 13k -- but we know for a fact it must have been much greater than that by the time he fought Ginku.
The only other canon source is V-Jump, which credits him with a PL of 75k. That seems more realistic for reasons mentioned above.
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Regardless, even if you just want to cap Krillin's PL at 23,000, that's still enough to planet-bust... And Vegeta had to consciously suppress his ki down to the point where Krillin could actually harm him:
On that note, Vegeta(whose PL was in the hundreds of thousands at the time) all-out blasted 2nd form Freeza while his guard was dropped, and Freeza still tanked it without issue:
Hell, Recoome did the same basic thing(ie. soaked Vegeta's all-out blast):
Granted Vegeta was weaker then, but he was still, obviously, above the realm of planet-busting.
V-Jump isn't reliable in the slightest. The Power Levels were specifically made for Dragon Ball: Budokai 3 (a videogame) and they make little to no sense when attached the manga and the movies.
Cooler would technically be weaker than the Androids, but he's 1/5th of Gogeta's power.
Not to mention that Broly has more than half of Gogeta's Power Level, which makes no sense since he's weaker than a Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 3 is supposedly a four times multiplier.
How does a list of movie PLs discredit anything I just said? The movies are non-canon, so of course any PLs listed wouldn't be applicable to the "canon" universe/timeline. Non-canon is non-canon.
That said, V-Jump is an officially licensed DB source, so where canon is concerned, it is perfectly valid. Hell, that's the medium through which nearly all [canon] DB information is released.
Anywho, the fact that Krillin(without even powering up) was capable of stalemating Ginku...whose PL was 23,000...already tells us his PL was considerably above 13,000.
Then we have Vegeta explicitly stating that the powers of Krillin and Gohan were continuously rising throughout the arc. So clearly the 13,000 cited by the Daizenshuu was just a starting point for Krillin -- certainly not his peak. If you try capping him at 13k, then you're just flat-out ignoring in-universe/on-panel evidence.
But again: even if you just want to cap Krillin's PL at 23,000(which is what his minimum PL would've had to be in order to stalemate Ginku for any length of time), that's still enough to one-shot the earth -- yet Vegeta still had to consciously suppress his ki down to the point where Krillin could actually harm him. That is the crux of this discussion.
Licence is a legal term and has nothing to do with canonicity. Technically the games are licenced as well, but they're still non-canonical.
The Power Levels in V-Jump was created for the game. So to apply it for the manga or the movies seems disingenuous.
Originally posted by Galan007
But again: even if you just want to cap Krillin's PL at 23,000(which is what his minimum PL would've had to be in order to stalemate Ginku for any length of time), that's still enough to one-shot the earth -- yet Vegeta still had to consciously suppress his ki down to the point where Krillin could actually harm him. That is the crux of this discussion.
I really see no reason to place Krillin above 13,000.
Well the PL of 13,000 the Daizenshuu credits him with is irrefutably busted, as evident by Krillin being able to stalemate Ginku without even powering up.
And mind you, an hour or so before that, Krillin's PL while fighting Guldo was only ~10,000(and that was after he'd powered up.) So clearly Toriyama was giving Krillin random, zenkai-esque power boosts throughout the arc. Logic be damned.
Then Vegeta confirms this by stating that Krillin's power has been constantly rising the entire time.
Then V-Jump credits Krillin with a PL of 75k "and still rising".
So in this case, the Daizenshuu is not indicative of Krillin's max PL, so the V-Jump source seems to be more in-line with what we were shown/told in the story itself.
Originally posted by AstnerWait, wut? ermm
Technically you don't need a greater Power Level to defeat someone, as we learned in Goku's and Piccolo's fight against Radditz.I really see no reason to place Krillin above 13,000.
The 'stipulations' that allowed Goku and Piccolo to defeat Raditz were not in-play when Krillin was fighting Ginku, so this is a faulty comparison.
In the same arc: Vegeta(PL=24,000) was capable of casually toying with, and effortlessly one-shotting, Cui(PL=18,000.) Hell, Vegeta did the same basic thing to Dodoria(PL=22,000) as well.
But you're telling me that even though Ginku's PL=23,000, Krillin could have still stalemated him for any length of time with a PL of only 13,000? 😕
I can't even tell if you're being serious at this point..? Numerical PLs were everything in that arc -- if your PL was significantly lower than your opponent's, you stood NO chance against them. Period.
Originally posted by Galan007
It was, imo.V-Jump has Krillin's PL at 75,000 "and still rising", which is a bit more in-line with what we saw after Guru unlocked him. I believe that 13,000 was just the starting point after the unlock, and Krillin's power continued growing afterward(same with Gohan's.)
After all, Krillin, who was actively pulling his punches at the time as to not harm Goku's body, didn't really have any issues contending with Ginku:
https://i.imgur.com/lCApP9G.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vS4H45P.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8tsmWl2.jpgAnd Ginku had a PL of 23,000:
https://i.imgur.com/xlQPa8V.jpg
...Which would have been more than enough to casually throttle Krillin if his PL were only 13,000.Additionally, Krillin didn't even powerup at all before fighting Ginku -- meaning that his baseline power must have been at least 23k at the time as well. That's just how it works in DB.
And Vegeta himself later stated that the powers of BOTH Krillin and Gohan perpetually kept rising throughout the arc:
https://i.imgur.com/PiJqNkA.jpgSo basically, we have the Daizenshuu stating that Krillin's PL was 13k -- but we know for a fact it must have been much greater than that by the time he fought Ginku.
The only other canon source is V-Jump, which credits him with a PL of 75k. That seems more realistic for reasons mentioned above.
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Regardless, even if you just want to cap Krillin's PL at 23,000, that's still enough to planet-bust... And Vegeta had to consciously suppress his ki down to the point where Krillin could actually harm him:
On that note, Vegeta(whose PL was in the hundreds of thousands at the time) all-out blasted 2nd form Freeza while his guard was dropped, and Freeza still tanked it without issue:
Hell, Recoome did the same basic thing(ie. soaked Vegeta's all-out blast):
Granted Vegeta was weaker then, but he was still, obviously, above the realm of planet-busting.
This pretty much seals the deal. Krillin knew he couldn't hurt Vegeta and Vegeta said that he would lower his power level so that Krillin could hurt him.
Originally posted by carver9Correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but on the low end (with a powerlevel of 13000) Krillin had the power to destroy multiple moons, and Vegeta still had to lower his power so that Krillin could harm him.
This pretty much seals the deal. Krillin knew he couldn't hurt Vegeta and Vegeta said that he would lower his power level so that Krillin could hurt him.
On the mid end (with a powerlevel of 23000) Krillin had the power to destroy a world, and Vegeta still had to lower his power so that Krillin could harm him.
On the high end (with a powerlevel of 75000) Krillin had the power to destroy multiple worlds, and Vegeta still had to lower his power so that Krillin could harm him.
Either one of those scenarios is crazy impressive in regards to Vegetas durability.
Originally posted by carver9I haven't watched the show in a while but this is how I remember it-
Wait, I thought Gohan damaged Raditz which dropped his power level and Piccolo amped his special beam canon to Raditz level to finish him off?
Gohan's amped headbutt injures radditz, and allows Goku to get him on a full nelson so that he can't block Piccolo's attack.
Then Piccolo fires an even stronger beam through a defenseless Radditz.
As far as I'm concerned the Power Level drop was only one facet of Ginyu not being able to use Goku's body to its full capacity, but I also think that he wasn't able to make use the the Power Level he had properly. And whether you want to accept that explanation or not doesn't matter because the situation is kind of sketchy.
If Krillin kicked Jiece's ass then I'd concede to a power increase. But as it stands I don't think one would be necessary for Krillin to bring about the state of affairs.
Originally posted by AstnerGinku powered up(as much as he could at the time), and his PL was 23,000:
As far as I'm concerned the Power Level drop was only one facet of Ginyu not being able to use Goku's body to its full capacity, but I also think that he wasn't able to make use the the Power Level he had properly. And whether you want to accept that explanation or not doesn't matter because the situation is kind of sketchy.
Krillin then proceeded to stalemate him:
And Vegeta further implied that Krillin and Gohan were holding back because they didn't want to massively injure Goku's body:
So any way you slice it, Krillin(without even powering up, and while pulling his punches) was stalemating a guy who had a PL of 23k. That simply could not happen if Krillin's PL was only 13k. Again, DB doesn't work that way(especially during that particular arc.)
Originally posted by AstnerYour point still doesn't make any sense, given established events of the story.
If Krillin kicked Jiece's ass then I'd concede to a power increase. But as it stands I don't think one would be necessary for Krillin to bring about the state of affairs.
When Vegeta effortlessly stomped Cui, then casually destroyed him with a finger beam, there was only a ~29% difference between their PLs. When Vegeta stomped Dodoria, then destroyed him with a single blast, there was only a ~9% difference between their PLs.
But your contention is that Krillin, with a PL of 13k, could have still stalemated Ginku, despite him having a PL of 23k(ie. a difference of ~56%)..? Doesn't make sense, and contradicts how PL discrepancies were showcased in the story itself.
