Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
When he's shamelessly copy-pasting your posts, like some teenage fangirl with eternally wet pussy for that 007 firehose?Or entirely on his own?
Another example just off the top of my head:
Fighting a bloodlusted Flash, Zoom leaves in the middle of battle, runs all the way back to Keystone City, checks up on Linda, then runs back - before Wally even registers that he has left.
WALLY.
The guy who outraces light, time, and Death, lmao.
Originally posted by Enzeru
I will now tell you how I always have and always will perceive Dragonball characters:To me they are more energy manipulators than they are durable physical power houses. They have a high energy output and at the same time they have a high resistance to energy based attacks. Energy, KI, whatever – you get the point.
There is a scene, where adult Goku is completely overwhelmed by the weight of 40 tons. He has to go super saiyan to handle that weight. He handles it well at that point, but 40 tons still isn't really that much. Yeah, he gets stronger from that point on, but it's not like now he can easily lift 400 tons in his base form. And I don't think that 40-400 tons is something any high herald would struggle with.
There is also another scene, where super saiyan Vegeta gets hit by 1000 tons and he is visibly hurt and uncomfortable. Can't take many more of those. 1000 tons being too much for high heralds... I'm not seeing it. We've seen what Savage Hulk was able to handle in older comics with the mountain. Do I think that a super saiyan would be able to handle that? Hell no. Can a super saiyan god handle that weight? I still don't think so, because to me the jumps in physical power of saiyans and other Dragonball characters on that level... are just not that big.
And when it comes to high heralds and strength, I personally do think that strength carries over to striking ability and durability. When I envision a fight between Goku (in any form) and a high herald from DC... be it Shazam, Black Adam, Wonder Woman etc., I just don't see Goku being able to dish out the physical damage needed to actually affect someone like... let's say Wonder Woman.
Do I think that a punch strong enough to destroy a planet would be enough to insta-kill Wonder Woman? No, I don't think so. I do think that she would be hurt... maybe even badly, because planetary power is nothing to laugh at. But in such a fight that doesn't even matter, because no version of Goku has the physical capabilities of dishing out planetary destruction. He just hasn't. There isn't a single moment in Dragonball mangas and the animes, which suggest that even the strongest saiyan can destroy a planet with a punch.So they have to rely on their energy output, which is a whole another story. And that's where Dragonball power scaling comes into play and things get messy. The argument is, that because Muten Roshi was able to destroy a moon... and he is super weak, every other Dragonball character has to be infinitely stronger and has to be able to destroy the entire universe with a single energy attack. But that's not what we ever see. Every time it actually matters, their energy output is pretty much on the same level.
Goku ripping Cell in half with his Kamehameha? He needed to power up for multiple seconds for that. And it was said that the beam would destroy Earth. Okay, cool. Cell blowing up Earth? That was his self-destruct mode and he had to power up for a whole minute. Why not just casually destroy the Earth with an energy beam? Because he can't. Goku teleported Cell away and got killed by that planetary level explosion, since it also destroyed King Kais planetoid. Everything else in heaven remained in tact from what I can remember.
Frieza wanting to destroy Earth? He had to shoot an energy ball at the center of the Earth to destabilize it and destroy it that way? Why not casually bust the planet?
What about my boi Broly? Why didn't he casually destroy the planet, when it looked as if he was losing during the second movie? Speaking of Broly, why does Super Saiyan Broly need to protect himself from lava with a force field? Because his durability is not high enough to withstand it.I don't pay attention to space cheese. Like Beerus tapping a desk and destroying half a planet. That's non-sense magic or whatever. No one doubts that Dragonball has mystical magic as well. If that's the argument, then sure, why not. But in a fight? Hell no.
Do I think that DC characters get blasted into oblivion by energy based attacks from Dragonball characters? No, I don't. Why would I? What have Dragonball characters ever done to justify power beyond the planetary? Nothing. These arguments are always made based on statements and power scaling. And the one instance is the universal energy wave stuff, which is not logical in the first place – but even if it is, it doesn't matter at the very center of the fight, where high heralds are perfectly safe.
So in my mind any DC high herald beats any Dragonball character, who has to rely on their own power. And that includes Broly. I like Broly more than any DC high herald (even Black Adam, whom I like), but that's not going to make me vote for him out of bias. Why would I lie to myself?
Fights, where I can see Dragonball characters winning... are fights against the Green Lanterns, where it wouldn't be as physical. So it would be energy output against energy output. As soon as it gets physical... PHYSICAL, LET'S GET PHYSICAL, PHYSICAL! ... Dragonball characters lose. That's what we also see in Dragonball as well. During hand to hand combat they take damage so much faster than when they attack each other with energy attacks.
What about:
Goku vs Sentry/Surfer/Thor, energy attacks only, no fisticuffs? Not a gauntlet, so 1on1 fights (to start with).
If he beats each of the Marvels 1on1, then Thor (not Cosmic Herald) gets Surfer (Silver), then if the duo are not enough, add Sentry.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85The problem with his logic is that he is adamantly opposed to the use of power-scaling, despite DB characters becoming exponentially more powerful than they were back when they were 'just' planet-busters. So he's always going to say that DB characters have no chance against heralds, because he seems to think DB characters cap at planet-busting. It is essentially just a rehash of the tired "collateral damage means everything!!!" argument, which doesn't hold up in any medium(be it comics or anime/manga.)
What about:Goku vs Sentry/Surfer/Thor, energy attacks only, no fisticuffs? Not a gauntlet, so 1on1 fights (to start with).
If he beats each of the Marvels 1on1, then Thor (not Cosmic Herald) gets Surfer (Silver), then if the duo are not enough, add Sentry.
So for example, even though Saiyan saga Vegeta was capable of destroying the Earth, evidently that's all Namek SS1 Goku could do as well, despite being ~8,300x more powerful(yes, that is the canon difference between their powers.) Said logic also ignores the fact that when a DB character's PL increases, ALL of their physical stats also increase in accordance(ie. strength, speed, perceptions/reactions, durability, etc.)
And I have mentioned this before, but there has always been a wildly illogical difference between lifting strength and striking strength in DB for whatever reason. So even though Goku can easily punch characters through mountains(and that's on the very low end), he still struggled to lift 40 tons for some strange reason. I don't have any clue *why* Toriyama portrays DB strength like that, but he does, and it's weird: a guy who can casually punch you through mountains isn't going to struggle lifting 40 tons, but I digress.
That being said, unless a DB character is put in a bench press contest against a comic character, then striking strength is what matters more in a fight anyway. /shrug
Originally posted by DarkSaint85What about:
Goku vs Sentry/Surfer/Thor, energy attacks only, no fisticuffs? Not a gauntlet, so 1on1 fights (to start with).
If he beats each of the Marvels 1on1, then Thor (not Cosmic Herald) gets Surfer (Silver), then if the duo are not enough, add Sentry.
As I said:
The Sentry needs to punch Goku (no matter which version) in the face once and the fight is over. I'll gladly bring up the example once again: Super Saiyan God Vegeta couldn't lift a 1000 ton robot. He got smacked in the head and hurt. He had to immediately gain distance in order to avoid another smack. And that wasn't even done for comedic purposes.
For the sake of the argument, let's say that Super Saiyan God Goku can lift ten times more weight: 10.000 tons. That's still so much less physical strength than the Sentry has, who casually lifts 40.000 ton heavy passenger planes and 150.000 tons heavy cruise ship and offers to sink entire islands.
It's not like Dragonball characters are shooting energy beams 24/7. They do fight. And once any Dragonball character engages with the Sentry in a physical battle, the fight is immediately over. It just is. Stating that doesn't make me a hater. Stating that points out the obvious.
So to give a Dragonball character a fighting chance, you have to severely limit superhero characters by taking away their natural advantages. It's like putting up Superman against the Hulk, but taking away Supermans ability to fly, his super speed, heat vision and freeze breath. "Can Hulk win, if they're both standing in one spot and punching each other in the face?"
But that's not what your question is. What you're asking me is, if both Sentry and Goku stand in one spot and shoot energy at each other, who will go down first. And even that can still be turned into a debate.
1. Who fires first? I'm pretty sure that Sentry fires first, considering how long Dragonball characters need to charge up their attacks.
2. Can Goku even survive one of Sentry energy attacks? I'm fairly certain that these are based on heat as well (alongside other things). And with Broly having to use force fields against lava and dying in the sun, I don't see how Goku could withstand energy, which burnt through WW Hulks skin.
3. What exactly is Gokus highest power? To find that out we need to scale, since besides the "weird, mystical" Beerus showing, Goku has never done anything beyond the planetary. But if we do scale and - again, for the sake of the argument - say that Goku can destroy a universe with his energy... would the Sentry truly die from that? Hyperion survived the explosion of two universes and I'd argue that Sentry is quite a bit more powerful than Hyperion.
4. And if we do scale, why not bring up statements for the Sentry about his supposed limitless power? And even if we don't talk about those statements, why not talk about the fact that Sentry casually participated in fights (against Photon), which destroyed planets? Super Saiyan God Vegeta died, once the planet he was on got destroyed. Even if he survived it, he died in deep open space. Someone brought up that Frieza survived the explosion, but nothing tells us that Frieza didn't simply fly away before the planet exploded.
Here is how Dragonball characters beat high tier superhero characters: Power scaling and power scaling only.
Let's take Silver Surfer, who would beat Goku far more often than not. The only way I see Goku winning is by using Muten Roshis low power level, yet the ability to destroy a moon... and start scaling from there. Which is something Dragonball fans ALWAYS do. Can Silver Surfer survive the energy beam from someone, who is 100 million times stronger than someone, who was able to destroy a moon? No, Silver Surfer probably can't survive that. But is Goku portrayed as someone, who has the ability to fire a CONCENTRATED (emphasis on concentrated) universal blast at your Silver Surfers and Hyperions? Hell no.
Even further, power scaling to such a degree becomes even more questionable, when you consider how Muten Roshi surprised Jiren and was able to dodge his attacks. Obviously Jiren one-shots Muten Roshi, but with basic overall power scaling why would Jiren EVER fail to actually hit Muten Roshi and would have to get serious? It's not like he severely underestimated Muten Roshi. He acknowledged Goku and realized that Muten Roshi was his master. And even if he did underestimate him, wouldn't it still be like Flash getting tagged by Batman? We all know the scene with Flash, Batman and Flashs suit. Funnily enough, that's also something Dragonball fans hate. They hate that Muten Roshi was able to dodge Jirens attacks, because it attacks their beloved power scaling.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85So is THIS why people on the forums keep making a distinction between lifting and striking for comic characters?
I'm not gonna respond to Galan directly, but just point out things he likes to ignore, because it suits his argument:
Even if we consider striking and lifting strength to be different for Dragonball characters, we can't ignore their durability. If their durability increases exponentially with a higher power level and higher saiyan forms... Super Saiyan God Vegeta should not be severely hurt after getting hit in the head by a 1000 ton robot. As I said, that wasn't done for comedic purposes. He was hurt.
So in a Dragonball fans mind... because base saiyans destroyed planets back in the day... they also had planetary level durability back in the day. And nowdays they should be more than capable of easily laughing off the concentrated force of galaxy level attacks. Which... is absolutely laughable. I'm going to repeat it again: Super Saiyan God Vegeta got hurt by a 1000 ton robot. Broly had to protect himself from lava with a force field. Gohan had to dodge rocks, which Goten threw at him. Goku got hurt after being hit with a rock by Krillin. And they were all more powerful than base saiyans, which supposedly have planetary level durability. So at which point does the power scaling kick in and increase their durability to galactic levels? Because I'm not seeing it. If it worked that way every Dragonball character and their mother would be laughing at any kind of physical damage the receive. But they don't. They take everything very seriously, because it hurts them.
Compare it to Karate Kid from DC comics. Yeah, he can't lift much, but he can punch mountains in half. Same with Iron Fist. Just gather your chi and do the trick. But still, how durable are you in the end truly? :-7
i like how the durability argument only works against db. 😆
shit, do we really need to start a running tally of comic book chars who have been hurt by laughable attacks as well? herald thor was recent hurt by "a rock" for crying out loud. superman was hurt by a gas station explosion. sentry was taken out by a space worm. surfer was armbarred by black panther. phantom stranger was lasso'd by wonder woman. and theres a lot more.
every single comic character have low showings like that. but i didn't realize bottom of the barrel stuff is how all characters were gauged here. if that's the case then the tiers list is about to get a huge revamp lmao.
Originally posted by Enzeru
As I said:The Sentry needs to punch Goku (no matter which version) in the face once and the fight is over. I'll gladly bring up the example once again: Super Saiyan God Vegeta couldn't lift a 1000 ton robot. He got smacked in the head and hurt. He had to immediately gain distance in order to avoid another smack. And that wasn't even done for comedic purposes.
For the sake of the argument, let's say that Super Saiyan God Goku can lift ten times more weight: 10.000 tons. That's still so much less physical strength than the Sentry has, who casually lifts 40.000 ton heavy passenger planes and 150.000 tons heavy cruise ship and offers to sink entire islands.It's not like Dragonball characters are shooting energy beams 24/7. They do fight. And once any Dragonball character engages with the Sentry in a physical battle, the fight is immediately over. It just is. Stating that doesn't make me a hater. Stating that points out the obvious.
So to give a Dragonball character a fighting chance, you have to severely limit superhero characters by taking away their natural advantages. It's like putting up Superman against the Hulk, but taking away Supermans ability to fly, his super speed, heat vision and freeze breath. "Can Hulk win, if they're both standing in one spot and punching each other in the face?"But that's not what your question is. What you're asking me is, if both Sentry and Goku stand in one spot and shoot energy at each other, who will go down first. And even that can still be turned into a debate.
1. Who fires first? I'm pretty sure that Sentry fires first, considering how long Dragonball characters need to charge up their attacks.
2. Can Goku even survive one of Sentry energy attacks? I'm fairly certain that these are based on heat as well (alongside other things). And with Broly having to use force fields against lava and dying in the sun, I don't see how Goku could withstand energy, which burnt through WW Hulks skin.
3. What exactly is Gokus highest power? To find that out we need to scale, since besides the "weird, mystical" Beerus showing, Goku has never done anything beyond the planetary. But if we do scale and - again, for the sake of the argument - say that Goku can destroy a universe with his energy... would the Sentry truly die from that? Hyperion survived the explosion of two universes and I'd argue that Sentry is quite a bit more powerful than Hyperion.
4. And if we do scale, why not bring up statements for the Sentry about his supposed limitless power? And even if we don't talk about those statements, why not talk about the fact that Sentry casually participated in fights (against Photon), which destroyed planets? Super Saiyan God Vegeta died, once the planet he was on got destroyed. Even if he survived it, he died in deep open space. Someone brought up that Frieza survived the explosion, but nothing tells us that Frieza didn't simply fly away before the planet exploded.
Here is how Dragonball characters beat high tier superhero characters: Power scaling and power scaling only.
Let's take Silver Surfer, who would beat Goku far more often than not. The only way I see Goku winning is by using Muten Roshis low power level, yet the ability to destroy a moon... and start scaling from there. Which is something Dragonball fans ALWAYS do. Can Silver Surfer survive the energy beam from someone, who is 100 million times stronger than someone, who was able to destroy a moon? No, Silver Surfer probably can't survive that. But is Goku portrayed as someone, who has the ability to fire a CONCENTRATED (emphasis on concentrated) universal blast at your Silver Surfers and Hyperions? Hell no.
Even further, power scaling to such a degree becomes even more questionable, when you consider how Muten Roshi surprised Jiren and was able to dodge his attacks. Obviously Jiren one-shots Muten Roshi, but with basic overall power scaling why would Jiren EVER fail to actually hit Muten Roshi and would have to get serious? It's not like he severely underestimated Muten Roshi. He acknowledged Goku and realized that Muten Roshi was his master. And even if he did underestimate him, wouldn't it still be like Flash getting tagged by Batman? We all know the scene with Flash, Batman and Flashs suit. Funnily enough, that's also something Dragonball fans hate. They hate that Muten Roshi was able to dodge Jirens attacks, because it attacks their beloved power scaling.I'm not gonna respond to Galan directly, but just point out things he likes to ignore, because it suits his argument:
Even if we consider striking and lifting strength to be different for Dragonball characters, we can't ignore their durability. If their durability increases exponentially with a higher power level and higher saiyan forms... Super Saiyan God Vegeta should not be severely hurt after getting hit in the head by a 1000 ton robot. As I said, that wasn't done for comedic purposes. He was hurt.
So in a Dragonball fans mind... because base saiyans destroyed planets back in the day... they also had planetary level durability back in the day. And nowdays they should be more than capable of easily laughing off the concentrated force of galaxy level attacks. Which... is absolutely laughable. I'm going to repeat it again: Super Saiyan God Vegeta got hurt by a 1000 ton robot. Broly had to protect himself from lava with a force field. Gohan had to dodge rocks, which Goten threw at him. Goku got hurt after being hit with a rock by Krillin. And they were all more powerful than base saiyans, which supposedly have planetary level durability. So at which point does the power scaling kick in and increase their durability to galactic levels? Because I'm not seeing it. If it worked that way every Dragonball character and their mother would be laughing at any kind of physical damage the receive. But they don't. They take everything very seriously, because it hurts them.
Compare it to Karate Kid from DC comics. Yeah, he can't lift much, but he can punch mountains in half. Same with Iron Fist. Just gather your chi and do the trick. But still, how durable are you in the end truly? :-7
Sooo you're completely ignoring what Goku and Beerus Punches were doing and The Possibility of further destruction they could of cause?
Gohan was dodging rocks for reflex training purposes with a noob Goten.
Broly in lava is a non canon movie.
Goku getting hurt by krillin throwing a rock was a non canon gag scene.
The argument of the universe destroying wave getting stronger as it went further out being counter physics is irrelevant because goku and Beerus were fighting right next to Earth and they needed a convenient excuse for it not to be destroyed.
you shouldn't compare DBS manga limits with DBS anime limits. And the infamous "40 tons" situation in the Buu Saga, that was a case related to weights on one's body and using a different kind of lifting strength. In pre-Z Dragon Ball, Goku had pushed a boulder as part of Roshi's training that weighed probably several hundred tons. Later, when he was much stronger, he was able to lift and flip Giant Form Piccolo, who would have weighed multiple tons himself. Later still when he was vastly superior in the Frieza Saga, he was able to stop a small mountain-like section of land that Frieza had telekinetically thrown at him, and while he couldn't completely stop it, that was due to Frieza's telekinetic influence. Had that not been present, he most likely would have pushed it back and away. By the time of the Buu Saga, he only got even stronger. In terms of deadlifting, he could handle far more than 40 tons. That sort of weight training is just something weird in Dragon Ball that relates to how their gravity training operated.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvilif the feats and logic don't suit him, of course he'll ignore it.
Sooo you're completely ignoring what Goku and Beerus Punches were doing and The Possibility of further destruction they could of cause?
his text walls are basically giant manifestos detailing why he hates db lol.
Why do you keep bringing up the weight of the "robot" when it hits Vegeta? That'd be like bringing up the weight of Superman and laughing that he's 200 pounds lmao!
Magetta was over 1000 tons but he was very quick and strong too. He wasn't just a static weight that was powered by perpetual falling due to gravitational forces. He was also a fighter that weighed a bunch.
Almost everything you used was also filler or straight up non canon as well. I keep seeing DBZ Broly being used as an example for some reason, and even in the movie you're quoting he slammed through the sun powered by a massive energy beam that they did have time to charge up. If you're using filler/non canon then it opens up the door to simply use Janemba or Buuhan tearing down the walls of the universe by screaming. Vegito literally punches through his shield and stops him.
As for the striking not matching up to blasts and this being evidence of their striking resistance being low... why? What exactly gives them better blast resistance than punch resistance? They still punch away planet destroying attacks.
How would 100 percent Frieza do against the ball that destroyed Planet Vegeta if he was given a second or two of prep time before it hit?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So is THIS why people on the forums keep making a distinction between lifting and striking for comic characters?
Look at you always slinking around looking for ways to undermine the opposition and give DC characters a chance. Haha wow this Dragin Ballz sounds week if wat im heering is tru!
But no, there's almost no correlation to lifting strength and punching strength in real life. That's where it comes from initially.
in the BoG Saga, Goku was able to stop the second extremely dense combined Ki ball, which was energy of such density that upon detonation, it would have utterly obliterated Universe 7. At least in the dub, Elder Kai stated that the first one was already far denser than a star, which makes a lot of sense. and it wasn't SSJ God Vegeta who couldn't lift Magetta in the manga. That was regular SSJ Vegeta smh
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Why do you keep bringing up the weight of the "robot" when it hits Vegeta? That'd be like bringing up the weight of Superman and laughing that he's 200 pounds lmao!Magetta was over 1000 tons but he was very quick and strong too. He wasn't just a static weight that was powered by perpetual falling due to gravitational forces. He was also a fighter that weighed a bunch.
Almost everything you used was also filler or straight up non canon as well. I keep seeing DBZ Broly being used as an example for some reason, and even in the movie you're quoting he slammed through the sun powered by a massive energy beam that they did have time to charge up. If you're using filler/non canon then it opens up the door to simply use Janemba or Buuhan tearing down the walls of the universe by screaming. Vegito literally punches through his shield and stops him.
As for the striking not matching up to blasts and this being evidence of their striking resistance being low... why? What exactly gives them better blast resistance than punch resistance? They still punch away planet destroying attacks.
How would 100 percent Frieza do against the ball that destroyed Planet Vegeta if he was given a second or two of prep time before it hit?
Look at you always slinking around looking for ways to undermine the opposition and give DC characters a chance. Haha wow this Dragin Ballz sounds week if wat im heering is tru!
But no, there's almost no correlation to lifting strength and punching strength in real life. That's where it comes from initially.
Fairly certain there IS a correlation in real life though.
If there weren't, there would be no need for weight classes in boxing. Rick Moranis and Bob Sapp will always have a disparity in punching power, no matter how polished Moranis's technique is over Sapp's.
If a human being existed who could lift ten tons, do you really think technique would matter? At all?