Captain America vs. Silver Surfer (with a twist)

Originally posted by -Pr-
The problem is that I could say no, but we both know Marvel could easily put out a comic where Surfer would be dodged by Cap.

I had a paragraph or so typed, but I was going in circles, so I'm just gonna summarize it: A man with cap's stats shouldn't be in the same ballpark as the Surfer speed wise. But Cap is Cap, and you bet if there was a comic where they fought, Cap would dodge some punches. That and what I believe the writer intent is with Surfer, isn't terribly well-reflected in the comics.

In essence, to put it simply: let's say you gets Surfer's exact hand to hand fighting speed. To divorce it from the entire 'powerlevel' and talk about this one ability. Would you be faster than Cap in h2h? Would Cap eventually be able to hit you? Would he never hit you? Would Cap even be able to move before you one-shot him? Would Cap even see you move at all?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That....I mean, just jumping in here, makes no sense.

It basically seems to boil down to : Surfer is a High Herald, and so he is the same level of speed as other High Heralds.

But Cap is Cap, so comics will show him keeping up.

On the one hand you're saying we debate based on essentially handbook entries, but at the same time....we debate based on comic feats?

Or are Cap's feats PIS and should be ignored for forum fights?

Feels like you're making some assumptions there. Maybe not intentionally, but still.

I'm saying that from my POV, I can only ignore Cap's aura so much. With the likes of him, Batman and Wolverine, if the guy they're fighting doesn't have enough conclusive feats (like say, Hulk or Superman, or someone that effectively cancels their offene out) to show that they'd grind them in to paste, then the fight is closer than it appears at first.

Surfer has some decent speed feats, but they're just not good enough, or in sufficient quantities, to make me able to say he's dodging every Cap punch and in turn, too fast for Cap to dodge.

Is that clearer?

Originally posted by darthgoober
One more point of clarification would be appreciated if you don't mind Pr. Would the type of mental/reflex speed Surfer used to grab Shalla Ba out of Grandmaster's explosive sphere and escape before the explosion reached her be a viable example of applicable super speed(since it involved him grabbing onto her physically), or would it be invalid since he was on his board and didn't throw a punch? Not asking you to rank the impressiveness of the feat itself or anything like that, just rule on whether such qualify as evidence of super speed.

I consider anything that requires you to think, then act, as combat speed. Travel soeed is "I'm flying in a straight line from A to B". Combat speed is, at least in theory, pretty much everything else.

At least to me.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Surfer has some decent speed feats, but they're just not good enough, or in sufficient quantities, to make me able to say he's dodging every Cap punch and in turn, too fast for Cap to dodge.

Is that clearer?

Can we have a general rulling on this? We just need a ballpark, in order for threads like the one Stilt made here to not be closed for example

Originally posted by Philosophía
Hm -- I want to make sure I understand this properly, you think that Surfer is faster than Cap because of the overall power status? So his super-speed is higher than Cap's super-speed, because he is overall more powerful?

In essence, to put it simply: let's say you gets Surfer's exact hand to hand fighting speed. To divorce it from the entire 'powerlevel' and talk about this one ability. Would you be faster than Cap in h2h? Would Cap eventually be able to hit you? Would he never hit you? Would Cap even be able to move before you one-shot him? Would Cap even see you move at all?

Honestly, what I'm saying is that I hate debating, but to clarify:

Not power. Intent. I believe that when it comes to characters like Surfer, about 99% of comic writers don't separate travel and combat speed. If a character is "fast", then they're "fast". End of. So the intent is that he should be beyond the likes of Cap/Logan/Bats etc even in a battle board setting.

His feats just... aren't plentiful enough. Or good enough, even if I wanted to I could say "well, Surfer couldn't do x travel feat without really good combat speed". It's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Feels like you're making some assumptions there. Maybe not intentionally, but still.

Surfer has some decent speed feats, but they're just not good enough, or in sufficient quantities, to make me able to say he's dodging every Cap punch and in turn, too fast for Cap to dodge.

Is that clearer?

It is, cheers. I mean.....what if Stilt's thread was ten mins (instead of an hour)? Considering all Cap had to do to win was okay keep away.....

Originally posted by -Pr-
Honestly, what I'm saying is that I hate debating, but to clarify:

Not power. Intent. I believe that when it comes to characters like Surfer, about 99% of comic writers don't separate travel and combat speed. If a character is "fast", then they're "fast". End of. So the intent is that he should be beyond the likes of Cap/Logan/Bats etc even in a battle board setting.

His feats just... aren't plentiful enough. Or good enough, even if I wanted to I could say "well, Surfer couldn't do x travel feat without really good combat speed". It's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.

Thanks for the clarification 👆

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Stilt, wanna edit your thread to a smaller time frame, 5 min or something?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So my post still stands.

Colossus tanked adamantium. A glancing blow? Sure. But uhh.....in that EXACT instance that I just posted, he tanked them.

Next page:

Not even a scratch 😂

Concession accepted. I said Colossus tanked adamantium, he tanked it IN THAT SCENE. Any other pages you post, are moot - because all I need to show is ONE instance.

Colossus literally stood there, chest puffed out, and wasn't hurt in the slightest by adamantium in MY scan.

Thus, tanked.

Run along 🙂

😂 Yeah no I debunked your claim since it was a GLANCING BLOW. Plus, the very FACT that in that fight, Hellverine was shown making Colossus BLEED via stabbing and slashing him with the claws debunks your claim, period. Not up for dispute

BTW I've taken GLANCING BLOWS from kicks and or punches that would have caused damage to my body in real life. Did I TANK them? NO. If you actually read comics you'd know Logan TRAINED Colossus on how to evade attacks in such a way that he can roll with them and or make them glance off. That tactic significantly reduces the impact of the attack, which in turn reduces the level of damage of the attack.

Learn, What. Tanking. Means.

"Debunked it because I said it".

Oh Alberto.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh?

?

https://postimg.cc/tsrh5KZ9
https://postimg.cc/cg3wd6DJ
https://postimg.cc/CnVD5Yts
https://postimg.cc/BX4HGS2q
https://postimg.cc/kBs8J0yW
https://postimg.cc/DmqLDJJj
https://postimg.cc/WDh0f5gg
https://postimg.cc/cK2fqfBj
https://postimg.cc/JHcXBvCV

Hell-Wolverine tore Colossus tore to pieces, and nearly killed him....Colossus can't tank Wolverine's claws.

The only other instance I recall, Wolverine was swung at Colossus by Stryfe, but managed to retract his claws in time. Or he'd have cut Colossus in half or something of that nature (Peter's own words). It has less to do with durability at this point imo if they can break Thanos' skin and Gladiator's.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Yeah, I mean you could easily argue for Hal, Guy or John's travel stuff for example [which, contrary to this situation, are actually plentiful and good even when not relying on travelling and doing stuff, and you definitely know a lot about them], but Batman is still faster than them if it comes to pure h2h. I do think that writers/editors in their mind separate travel/doing stuff thus what's portrayed in fights with actual hand to hand stuff, but that's neither here nor there.

Thanks for the clarification 👆

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Stilt, wanna edit your thread to a smaller time frame, 5 min or something?

It has gone for almost 20 pages. Too late to edit.

But I never intended this one-hour objective to stop you guys from discussing how long Cap could last.

One hour really shouldn't be too extreme given Cap's superb stamina and Surfer's lack of speed, but feel free to talk whether he could last 5-10 minutes, if you think it's better.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
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Hell-Wolverine tore Colossus tore to pieces, and nearly killed him....Colossus can't tank Wolverine's claws.

The only other instance I recall, Wolverine was swung at Colossus by Stryfe, but managed to retract his claws in time. Or he'd have cut Colossus in half or something of that nature (Peter's own words). It has less to do with durability at this point imo if they can break Thanos' skin and Gladiator's.

So what did I post?

Rage, know what you're jumping into. I made an off the cuff joke about Juggy tanking adamantium being a Colossus level feat, with MY specific scans in mind.

Did Colossus tank or not tank adamantium in MY specific scans, which were the SPECIFIC scans I had in mind when I made my post? Simple yes or no q.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The only other instance I recall, Wolverine was swung at Colossus by Stryfe, but managed to retract his claws in time. Or he'd have cut Colossus in half or something of that nature (Peter's own words). It has less to do with durability at this point imo if they can break Thanos' skin and Gladiator's.

You're thinking of this scene:

Appearing to have no-sold one swipe, only to get f*cked up by the ones that followed is something several different characters did.

Exodus, WWH, 100% TO Cable, among others.

But you need to consider that DS is just trolling Alberto back.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what did I post?

Rage, know what you're jumping into. I made an off the cuff joke about Juggy tanking adamantium being a Colossus level feat, with MY specific scans in mind.

Did Colossus tank or not tank adamantium in MY specific scans, which were the SPECIFIC scans I had in mind when I made my post? Simple yes or no q.

I get what you're going for, but I think this is a pointless example. If that's your definition of tanking, then you can throw a whole lot of characters to that list.

When I think of tanking, it's not something that exists for more than one moment of attack. But carry on, this is one of those microscope discussions that is between two posters across several threads.

We've all had those.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I get what you're going for, but I think this is a pointless example. If that's your definition of tanking, then you can throw a whole lot of characters to that list.

When I think of tanking, it's not something that exists for more than one moment of attack. But carry on, this is one of those microscope discussions that is between two posters across several threads.

We've all had those.

Lol. This all arose because Albert is salty I reminded everyone he tried to pass some fanart off as proof. It really turned him on,so he's trying something, anything, to distract from it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This all arose because Albert is salty I reminded everyone he tried to pass some fanart off as proof.

He actually tried to sound sure while placing it in the canon mainstream continuity, too.

"That? That was weakened Juggernaut".

Lmao.

The way Gambit caught Gladiator off guard with a full deck of cards and knocked the wind out of him shows that Cap might get a shot in but it wouldn’t be very great.

mmm

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Been a long weekend here, so yeah prob jumping to conclusions....

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It is, cheers. I mean.....what if Stilt's thread was ten mins (instead of an hour)? Considering all Cap had to do to win was okay keep away..... [/B]

Originally posted by Philosophía
Yeah, I mean you could easily argue for Hal, Guy or John's travel stuff for example [which, contrary to this situation, are actually plentiful and good even when not relying on travelling and doing stuff, and you definitely know a lot about them], but Batman is still faster than them if it comes to pure h2h. I do think that writers/editors in their mind separate travel/doing stuff thus what's portrayed in fights with actual hand to hand stuff, but that's neither here nor there.

Thanks for the clarification 👆

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Stilt, wanna edit your thread to a smaller time frame, 5 min or something?

If Stilt wants me to edit it, I can, but I honestly don't see the need. It's up to him.

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I'm... just going to assume all of the Colossus stuff is trolling.

The thing with Juggernaut is that he actually tanked the claws twice in the same comic. Not a single successful attempt (unlike in Colossus' case, where he got sliced, diced and stabbed like a turkey).

That's how we know it wasn't just a coincidence / glancing blow / freak luck.

I shouldn't be defending Alberto though, seeing how he just googles some random shit and uses his imagination to try and say where it fits in the continuity 😐

I know it's been a while since we talked about it, but I really don't think using Hellverine works as establishing any kind of baseline.