Who is more powerful than the 616 Infinity Gauntlet?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You cant be this dense?

Seriously. You cant be 😕

Shut up already.

The Force in this interpretation was a like a newborn baby. It had just re-awoken to sentience when Feron reached out to it.

It allowed Feron to bond with a portion of it so he could achieve his goals whilst it could experience sentience and human emotion and learn.

Necrom defeated Feron as despite Feron being bonded to a portion of the Phoenix he was still Necroms student and inferior in terms of skill and finesse with energy wielding and so was defeated.

There's no such term as a "portion" in that scan or comic. Phoenix chose him as an avatar with full Phoenix Force.

This incident again proves my point that hosts dont all have full access to the Forces power and that they are only as capable as their mindset, willpower and ability allow them to be.

Furthermore as stated Feron was just bonded to a portion of its essence. So thats another way that hosts can differ thus explaining differences between them.

The Phoenix Force was just a neutral power source in this encounter. It wasnt in combat with Necrom itself. Necrom tearing out the portion of Force Feron was bonded with, pained it and it fled. Which when you consider the context given in the story (i.e it being newborn to sentience) makes sense.

So how does this in any way take away from the output of power that the Force is demonstrably capable of? They are separate things. Character behaviour, character durability, character power output. SEPARATE. A low showing of one doesnt allow you to dismiss whats achieved in the others. There is a clear comprehension issue here. Work on that.

Haha, your reading comprehension is worse than Carver's if such thing was even possible. But I'm curious, where is this "small portio" mentioned, post just that panel for me.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive presented scans saying that the power source of the stars is the Phoenix Force.

Scans saying it it is the sum and substance of all life

I've also presented scans explicitly stating that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang. They're one and the same.

What you dont seem to be able to compute is that the Phoenix can be both born in the Big Bang and be the matter/energy of the Big Bang.

The Force itself is the sentience of the Big Bang. Said sentience developing after the event.

I never said that the Phoenix created the planets. I said they stem from the Phoenix Force as it is the Big Bang. Why are you not getting the difference? Its not a complex point 😆

That Knull spotlight showed that a Big Bang happened, Knull was repelled for eons after which point the Celestials played their part in seeding the universe with life and aiding evolution.

This doesnt stop the Phoenix Force from being the life energy/matter that stars and planets stem from.

All this shows is that eons after the Big Bang, the Celestials either created planets out of ambient post Big Bang energy/matter or in addition to planets that form naturally after a Big Bang the Celestials also had a hand in creating planets.

Know the difference between the fleshing out of an origin and a retcon. The Big Bang still occurred in that issue and it wasn't stated to no longer be the Phoenix. 😄

As for your comment on Avengers Vs Xmen issue 4 it states that it was born in the microseconds in between cosmic death (end of the previous multiverse) and cosmic rebirth (beginning of the new multiverse/Big Bang)

[B]What's the Big Bang?

A cosmological model which describes universal expansion from an initial state of extremely high density and high temperature

On the very next page Tony says that in order to attempt to make a Phoenix killer he has to "CRACK UNIVERSAL EXPANSION"

GAME OVER
You shot yourself in the foot with your own evidence.
Get the hell outta here and dont waste my time 😱 😆 [/B]

Phoenix isn't the big bang, let it go.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I came out of retirement and I thoroughly whupped you.

Learn from this experience 🙂

Like I said, empty bravado.

Wow.

Did you truly believe this is an adequate and effective response to me?
Lack of comprehension, pride and stubbornness are an unfortunate combination as you’re demonstrating.
Let Day 3 of the beatdown commence.

You will learn 😱

Originally posted by abhilegend
So now you have deflected to "emotional state" rather than skill and the cooperation of Phoenix Force and the host, huh?

Way to concede your big argument.

Also Rachel was going out of control, that doesn't makes her weaker. That just makes her an out of control host. Again, you're pretty awful at reading scans.

Ive been giving the same consistent message since we started this 3 days ago:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The mistake many people make is that they don't put things into perspective and consider context and comparative nature.

The IG is a tool. The Phoenix Force is a sentient entity with its own agenda.

To simplify things, lets equate a potential user of either to a learner driver.
The IG would be an automatic Ford family car. The Phoenix Force would be a manual sports car.

The IG is easier to control and gives easy access to its full suite of features from the get go for just about all users. Leading to dramatically less variance between user showings.

The Phoenix Force however is a far more temperamental beast to tame and what you can get out of it depends on the users skill level.

Because of this you will always get consistently high showings with the IG.

With the Phoenix however it depends on the host, were they already an adept energy wielder or telepath, are they emotionally stable, is what they're trying to do aligned with the Phoenix Forces agenda (if not then the Force will simply turn on you and limit what you can do as seen in Uncanny X-Force when Jean attacked Death/Archangel)

However if you have a competent user, who has the necessary willpower/emotional stability and they're carrying out the Forces agenda then the feats such hosts have achieved have been beyond the best showings of the IG by a considerable margin and that's not debatable.

A manual car is tougher to master, but gives finer control and enables you to eke out performance that you never could from an automatic.

It was a whupping most severe. I probably would’ve blocked out such trauma as well 😆

Losing control means you cant plan effective and youre not acting with strategy, youre just wildly lashing out, so it definitely put a user at a severe disadvantage against a calm and collected combatant with a strategic mindset.
Furthermore, hosts are generally heroes who want to do the right thing, losing control means lashing out and putting innocent life at risk, so as demonstrated by Rachel and Jean in the scans ive shown, if their emotional state isn’t stable, then they are forced to cap their power output to a manageable level to avoid going Dark Phoenix.

Here is Nero who despite being a very willing host who sought the power, lacked the mental strength and willpower to cope with controlling an energy source that has a mind of its own:

So emotional state and willpower have a direct effect on how effectively a user can wield the Phoenix Force.

Furthermore as I showed previously, Necrom who possessed just a stolen portion of the Force, was able to output more power and display more effective energy manipulation feats than Rachel despite her being bonded to more of the Force:

“You wield the Phoenix like a clumsy tool”

Therefore your point that a host just has to be willing to be a host then they can effectively wield its power at full capacity is conclusively a dud.
Ive already conclusively demonstrated that emotional state and willpower can cause variation in host performance.

Necrom’s demonstrated that pre-existing skill with energy manipulation as well is a factor.

The Phoenix traditionally has favoured powerful telepaths fro a reason. It is a nexus of psychic energy therefore its power can be more effectively wielded by someone already proficient with wielding psionic energy.

Someone like Jean Grey.

What does the Phoenix say about Jean Grey?

That she is her most powerful and influential host ever. Thereby consluisvely showing there are differences in power between hosts. There were many willing hosts and yet the Force still said Jean was the most powerful of them all.

You have ZERO justification to push your unsupported theory that someone just has to be willing to be a host to have full access to the Phoenix power. Its conclusively demonstrated and stated that that is not the case.

To argue otherwise in the face of explicit and conslusive evidence to the contrary demonstrates that you are not debating to highlight the truth, you are stubbornly flapping those gums and talking nonsense out of pride.

Be a man and know when you are beaten.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Pretty cute how you put Jean creating psychic barriers on her own as somehow Phoenix's doing.

You’re losing the plot here.

Our point of discussion was that there are factors which can cause variations in showings between hosts.

That scan showed that a hosts emotional state can be a factor. Jeans worries made her subconsciously erect psychic barriers which put a power cap on her meaning she couldn’t access as much power, thereby affecting her battle prowess.

We saw this when just after saving the multiverse from the M’kraan crystal she would then go on to be taken out by a minor mutant with a tranquiliser gun:

Notice how it says that she went to react put nothing happen. Why? Psychic power cap

She later fought Magneto and was dominating, then hit a psychic power cap and lost the battle:

So once again, you CONCLUSIVELY cannot say that as long as hosts want to be a host then all hosts are equal in their ability to use the force and all have access to the full scope of the Phoenixes power and capability. It is shown and stated on panel that is not the case.

Emotional state
Willpower
Pre-existing abilities

All these factors are not equal in people and yet are stated on panel and demonstrated on panel to determine how much power someone has access to and how effectively they can wield it.

Do not mention this theory again.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Phoenix is talking about almost killing the amputated future timeline. Not the death at the hands of Xorn. You can't read for shit.

Incorrect.

They are not talking about almost killing the amputated future.

They are talking about almost killing 616 as a result of Jean amputating its future (Here Comes Tomorrow) off of it.
When Jean states that her friends don’t deserve this end, the Phoenix Force reveals it was her fault things turned out this way as instead of just carrying out her “Phoenix work”, it says

“You lost concentration. Became emotionally engaged”

Her deviation from her duties lead to what happened. Her focus on her relationship and her life as an X-man.

Her death, Sublimes rise to prominence and her subsequently having to extract Sublime from reality, then amputate the future thereby wounding 616, it was all the result of her choices. Her lack of concentration and emotional engagement.

Do not debate or raise challenges on matters you have little knowledge of. Be humble.

Regardless , the Force is mutable and indestructible. Jean Greys error, her becoming distracted, letting her guard down to comfort Zorn and getting killed as a result does not take away from what she is capable of.

Character behaviour, durability showings and power output are not one and the same. A low showing in one does not take away from what is demonstrated in the others.

Acknowledge that and move on.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, and Celestials defeated the Phoenix pretty easily.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Doom needed Strange to gain his footing. Which Phoenix host has ever harmed anyone at God Doom level? Not Jean Grey for sure.

Inconclusive. Doom was surprised. Nothing to say that Cyclops would’ve hurt Doom like he did if Doom wasn’t caught off guard. Therefore its not a feat we can read too much into. Redundant point.
Plus following that 2015 incident, the Phoenix years later still confirmed that Jean was its most powerful host. That’s conclusive. Give it a rest.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, you're easily triggered.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nope. Here's the writer commentary on it.

https://www.cbr.com/avx-commentary-track-hickman-on-4-plus-bonus-features/

"Here we've got a pretty epic confrontation between Thor and the Phoenix. What exactly happens in this scene. Does Thor hit the Phoenix so hard that it needs to stop and refuel?

Yeah, the idea was here's was basically Phoenix versus a god, which, you know, seems like a fair fight. So Thor went and smacked the Phoenix so hard that he knocked the bird out. [Laughs] He thinks he won, but it lands on another planet and then all of a sudden the planet lights up and the Phoenix consumes it. At that point Thor realizes he's screwed, and we realize not even a god can stop it.".

Bro. The Phoenix is indestructible, mutable energy. It doesn’t matter if you disrupt or splinter its energy form. It cannot be destroyed. Splintering its form does not take away from its power output showings.

Please stop typing, take a breather and give your brain time to process this point im trying to drive into your skull lol
Durability, character behaviours/CIS and power output are SEPARATE things. You cannot take away from the Phoenix Forces power output demonstrations by saying the Forces energy form got disrupted or a human host got killed. Understand the distinction 😆

Originally posted by abhilegend
Now you're talking about retcons, huh? And in the age of Apocalypse era, the crystal was merely the gateway for every universe. Not containing the multiverse.

I never once said the m’kraan crystal contained the whole multiverse. Find that in this thread and I’ll concede right now.

You wont find that because Its idiotic and imbecilic and therefore something you could never attribute to me.

After this debate that plaque is firmly suspended from your neck for all time Abhi-TallTales

The M’kraan crystal is a nexus for all realities of the marvel multiverse. When its power is unleashed then multiversal destruction will ensue unless it is stopped.
The crystal was retconned to being a multiversal nexus of realities in Age of Apocalypse and its capacity for multiversal destruction was referred to and demonstrated on panel:

The M’kraan crystal destroyed the 7th iteration of the multiverse that Galan came from and that is canon. So its multiversal power is not disputable.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It was done with temporal manipulation, handbooks confirm it.

No they don’t.

This is your own evidence:

It does NOT state that the Here Comes Tomorrow future was amputated through Jean nudging Cyclops to forget her and forge a future with Emma.

It states that Jean was able to heal the wounded orphan universe by healing it with her hearts blood i.e letting go of her personal connection to reality and urging Scott to move on.

This is all true. However it is a summary of what happened without all of the detail. It doesn’t even refer to the amputation of the future.

What wounded 616 in the 1st place? The amputation of the diseased Here Comes Tomorrow future.

Jean then healed that wound through nudging Scott to move on with his life. Which allowed a new dimensional stem to grow from the stump left when Jean amputated Here Comes Tomorrow.

The incident is also referred to in another handbook entry that ive also posted previously:

This one refers not only to the severing of the future but it then also refers to the nudging of Cyclops as a separate step that followed after the severing of the future thus confirming that my interpretation is correct.

The two handbook entries don’t contradict each other, they say the same thing, except my one goes into further detail.

The problem was you misinterpreted your own evidence.

You just really don’t understand things. This is a worrying theme. Stop debating. The comprehension skills just aren't there lol

Originally posted by abhilegend
This post is just a mess, what are you even talking about? What universal abstract did Phoenix beat?

Bro. You are the mess here. You struggle to grasp the most basic concepts, you throw around “evidence” that actually helps my case instead of your own and each exchange we have in the thread its as if your brain reaches its capacity, resets and you forget what we talked about earlier in the same thread 😆
When I was referring to facing universal abstracts I was contrasting Thanos’s IG feats with Phoenixes. Or did you forget the purpose of this debate?
I made the very valid point that beating universal abstracts who each are just facets of that universe may be the visually exciting and visually impressive for a comic book reader but in terms of power output, fighting within a universe and lording over everything in a universe pales in comparison to casually having total telekinetic control of all that makes up a universe down to its component atoms. To do so you would have to wield more energy than is contained in said universe and this is all without any discernible effort. What feats could she pull off with severe exertion and what does the ease Jean did this with then implicate about the power of the Phoenix Force who was at the time also empowering a hall full of other hosts as depicted.

Fascinating 😄

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also I said Necrom created the energy matrix which he did. Can't you read anything?

You dare say that to me? 😆

This is the final nail in the coffin mate.

Let me break this scan down to you:

The image clearly states that whilst it was Necroms scheme/idea, it was Feron wielding the Phoenix Force who actually carried out the action:

At the moment of alignment Feron called on the Phoenix avatar to project the tower through the multiverse, so that it existed on every plane of reality simultaneously”

Feron fuelled by the Phoenix carried out Necroms plan to duplicate the tower so that this tower would thread together energy contained in each reality into a multiversal matrix.
Necrom then planned to use this matrix that Phoenix Feron created in order to empower himself. But as the scan states he never got around to it as Feron realised he had been fooled into creating a power source for Necrom and resisted.
How on Earth did you misinterpret that very clear narration to say that Necrom projected the tower through the multiverse?

You’re either dopey or you’re lying and spreading fallacy again. Either way we’re done here.

You’re done here 😄

Originally posted by abhilegend
LMAO. You think Big Bang is the expansion of the universe? It's the explosion which occurred after matter and Anti matter interaction. I'm not sure what else is needed to confirm but here it is from the official handbook that Phoenix was reborn in the universe creating big bang.

Phoenix isn't the big bang, let it go.

What about this scan GS?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Shut up already.

There's no such term as a "portion" in that scan or comic. Phoenix chose him as an avatar with full Phoenix Force.

Haha, your reading comprehension is worse than Carver's if such thing was even possible. But I'm curious, where is this "small portio" mentioned, post just that panel for me.

No problem 🙂

"But instead tore out the portion of Phoenix Force that bonded his student to the avatar"

So not only can emotional state, willpower, pre-existing psionic/energy manipulation capability be factors which differentiate how powerful one Phoenix host is from another, but also how large a portion of the Phoenix avatar they are allowed to bond with.

Feron as stated on panel was only bonded with a portion of the Phoenix. He didnt have the full power of the Force yet was still able to duplicate the lighthouse on every plane of reality across the multiverse.

Necrom stole this portion of Phoenix Force and it was this stolen, comparatively smaller portion that he wielded against Rachel the chosen Phoenix host and yet as ive shown in this thread he was pulling off better feats than her.

Why? 😖hifty:

Because pre-existing energy manipulation/psionic skills are also a differentiator in how powerful a host is.

Phoenix please tell us who your most powerful host is?

What's that you say? Omega level telepath Jean Grey? 😕

You sure its not Cyclops? 🙄 😆

Originally posted by abhilegend
LMAO. You think Big Bang is the expansion of the universe? It's the explosion which occurred after matter and Anti matter interaction. I'm not sure what else is needed to confirm but here it is from the official handbook that Phoenix was reborn in the universe creating big bang.

Phoenix isn't the big bang, let it go.

Lets look at some definitions for what the Big Bang is:

https://www.sciencealert.com/big-bang

"The Big Bang is a theory describing the expansion of our Universe from a point of origin roughly 13.8 billion years ago."

Heres another

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/big-bang/en/

"It is the idea that the universe began as just a single point, then expanded and stretched to grow as large as it is right now (and it could still be stretching)"

So when I previously said its a cosmological model that "describes universal expansion from an initial state of extremely high density and high temperature" I was correct.

You should come to expect that 🙂

It is said on panel explicitly that Phoenix is the Big Bang:

Phoenixes own memories show it is the Big Bang energies gone sentient:

Which is why it refers to itself as the sum and substance of all life and the handbooks call it the PRIME universal force of life.

Death, Roma and the Watcher all convene and explain that without the Phoenix Force there would be nothing in the universe, just a void.

Know when else theres a void? 😖hifty:

Before the Big Bang! 😱 😆

All that handbook entry says is the Phoenix was reborn from the Big Bang event. It was. As stated and depicted many times over through continuity it is those very same eternal, life force energies that reawakens to sentience every creation cycle.

In order to understand how to stop the Phoenix Force Tony Stark uses particle accelerators to "simulate the Big Bang"

He further states that in in order to stop the Phoenix he needs to crack "universal expansion"

Universal expansion from a singularity is the understood model of the Big Bang.

This is done and dusted

I have a feeling Phoenix will be heavily involved in the King in Black.

I am actually cringing. If you weren't so unjustifiably arrogant i would almost feel embarrassed for you.

This was just really horrible debating. ❌

You cant comprehend simple lines of argument and you consistently display an inability to effectively interpret comic book scans and require them to be broken down for you.

This is shocking. I've never debated with you previously as you've never caught my attention, but now I see that was perhaps for the best.

Bro you're a 10yr veteran. You should not be debating at such a basic level.

Acknowledge your limitations and instead of coming on here like you know it all, be humble. Ask questions. Absorb knowledge from those who actually have it.

I'm happy to support. If pride prevents you coming to me after i've just worked your ass I can direct you to other knowledgeable and skilled debaters on here. My boy Leonidas, Illadelph, KingMungi, OneDumbGo, Draco, Galan and many more.

Take a backseat....Learn your craft and then try again 🙁

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I have a feeling Phoenix will be heavily involved in the King in Black.

That would be great and it would make sense given Knull wants a return to a lifeless void, however i think Marvel wouldnt wanna overdose fans on Phoenix and its about to start its own story arc this month with Enter The Phoenix. So i cant see it being a big feature in both.

I wouldnt mind though 😉

Heres another scan saying the Phoenix Force is the embodiment of the Big Bang:

The evidence is overwhelming 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That would be great and it would make sense given Knull wants a return to a lifeless void, however i think Marvel wouldnt wanna overdose fans on Phoenix and its about to start its own story arc this month with Enter The Phoenix. So i cant see it being a big feature in both.

I wouldnt mind though 😉

Interesting they are on the cover. No one really thinks of mutants when it comes to anything symbiotes.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
X-Men are featured in KiB #4 cover. Includes Grey...

Interesting they are on the cover. No one really thinks of mutants when it comes to anything symbiotes.

In recent years the X-men and the mutant world in general has come out of the bubble it was previously in and they've been engaging with the rest of Marvel a lot more which is a good thing 🙂