Snoke vs. Count Dooku

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It doesn't.

Nowhere in the movie, the novelizations, or in the lore given by the website and reference guides like The Star Wars book and TROS Visual Dictionary is it suggested that "a proper genetic structure" is necessary for Sidious to attempt an essence transfer in the first place.

Right off the bat, this argument requires an unproven premise.

But even if that premise were proven and genetic continuity is required for Sheev to attempt essence transfer into a host, even temporarily, what evidence do we have that Snoke lacks sufficient genetic compatibility when he was the product of a program specifically designed to create genetically-compatible perfect hosts for Sheev?

The fact that Snoke was deemed an unfit abomination and clone failure, whose physical form clearly deviated massively from the normal human forms of Sidious, his original clone body, his cloned son, and Rey definitely points to his genetic structure being wildly different from the real deal.

So all I'm saying is that if you go the genetic route with your opinion then it is possible that Snoke just wasn't able to be used as a vessel at all because his genetic structure was too mutated- the cloners went a bit too far with him. And at that point Sidious might've said "well hey, he might not work as a vessel, but he's still powerful and would be a good lackey."

I know you dont agree. Just adding my two cents as to why it that might be a possibility if you think the proper genetics were needed for the transfer.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
What about Snoke suggests that he couldn't be a vessel?

You're assuming that Sidious not using Snoke in such a way was due to Snoke's body not being able to withstand his power. I don't disagree with this because nothing directly contradicts it.

But the other side of the argument is that Snoke wasn't used as a vessel because he didn't have the proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into from the get go. I don't really disagree with this either, because nothing directly contradicts it.

Originally posted by Dominis
Palpatine inhabits a clone vessel and right away it's barely enough to hold the power he held in his original body, so he adds thousands of more sith worth of power to it?

Still wouldn't be the dumbest thing that happened in the ST. 😛

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Well I mean, we're up to within a year of ROTJ in the comics and there has yet to be a mention of Sidious having all the power of the Sith. So unless some huge revelation happens pretty soon (which is definitely possible), then the only alternative would be that Sidious unlocked that power after ROTJ.

Still wouldn't be the dumbest thing that happened in the ST. 😛

So you think he created Snoke only after unlocking the power of all the Sith?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ 👆

Your initial interpretation is still the more obvious one to jump to but I honestly think they purposely make these quotes slightly ambiguous so nothing concrete is set in stone.

Imo, it does seem like the intent of the quote was for Luke to be drawing a comparison of some sort between the dark side mastery of Palpatine and Snoke. But it's still ambiguous enough that I understand why some people don't see it the same way.

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Well I mean, we're up to within a year of ROTJ in the comics and there has yet to be a mention of Sidious having all the power of the Sith. So unless some huge revelation happens pretty soon (which is definitely possible), then the only alternative would be that Sidious unlocked that power after ROTJ.

Still wouldn't be the dumbest thing that happened in the ST. 😛

I hope to God it is revealed that Palpatine acquired such power at some point after RotS, but before RotJ... Or that the blurbs about him possessing the power of all the Sith are just retconned entirely.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So you think he created Snoke only after unlocking the power of all the Sith?

With Snoke, it seems like he was created some time in between Sidious's death in ROTJ and Rey's birth about 10 years after ROTJ. That's what the novel points to at least.

After ROTJ would still make sense to me.

Maybe Sidious came away from his brief experience in the afterlife with the knowledge to harness the power of all the deceased Sith. Knowledge he might have only been able to gain by "dying".

That one Mandalorian episode looked like it was showing some Snoke clones being created. In that case it would make sense that he was created after ROTJ

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree.

Imo, it does seem like the intent of the quote was for Luke to be drawing a comparison of some sort between the dark side mastery of Palpatine and Snoke. But it's still ambiguous enough that I understand why some people don't see it the same way.

Seems as though Vader is about to travel to Exegol in the comic series and uncover Palpatine's "greatest secrets"... So if such a revelation doesn't happen then, it's almost certainly not going to happen at all.

I hope to God it is revealed that Palpatine acquired such power at some point after RotS, but before RotJ... Or that the blurbs about him possessing the power of all the Sith are just retconned entirely.

Are these the Star Wars comics or Darth Vader ones?

Originally posted by xPRIMEx
That one Mandalorian episode looked like it was showing some Snoke clones being created. In that case it would make sense that he was created after ROTJ

So if that is the case then the creation of Snoke and the birth of Rey are probably pretty close together. The Mandalorian S2 is set over 5 years after ROTJ and those clones didn't look like they were close to being "combat ready". So Snoke might only predate Rey by a few years at most, considering that Rey was born 10 years after ROTJ.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Are these the Star Wars comics or Darth Vader ones?

Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Well that's your opinion.

Is this a new refrain we use when we confront facts we don’t like? That “a proper genetic structure” isn’t said to be a requirement for Sheev to possess a host is a fact. It’s not an opinion. Perhaps it is a requirement, but it’s a fact that it’s not said to be one.

The fact that Snoke was deemed an unfit abomination and clone failure,

Because he’s unable to serve as a perfect permanent vessel.

whose physical form clearly deviated massively from the normal human forms of Sidious, his original clone body, his cloned son, and Rey definitely points to his genetic structure being wildly different from the real deal.

Why does this matter? No one’s saying Snoke is a duplicate, merely that he’s a product of the program designed to create a vessel for Sheev and that this is a strandcast created from Sheev.

Sheev’s occupying a literal corpse and intends to possess a petite woman, he’s clearly flexible about his meatsuits. The only functional difference between a rejuvenated Sheev and Snoke is Snoke is taller.

So all I'm saying is that if you go the genetic route with your opinion then it is possible that Snoke just wasn't able to be used as a vessel at all because his genetic structure was too mutated- the cloners went a bit too far with him. And at that point Sidious might've said "well hey, he might not work as a vessel, but he's still powerful and would be a good lackey."

Buddy, no one’s saying that this isn’t possible. What’s being said is that this is less possible than the explanation I and others are offering because it requires the unproven assumption of perfect or near perfect genetic symmetry for Sheev’s hosts. My explanation requires less speculation, which means by definition it’s the better one.

I know you dont agree. Just adding my two cents as to why it that might be a possibility if you think the proper genetics were needed for the transfer.

Not all possibilities are equal and not all theories are equally plausible. I don’t dispute that your interpretation is possible; I dispute the notion that your interpretation is equally reasonable or plausible to mine. It’s demonstrably not.

The fact that he wasn't used as a vessel, nor does anything point to Sidious trying (and failing) to use him as a vessel.

You're assuming that Sidious not using Snoke in such a way was due to Snoke's body not being able to withstand his power. I don't disagree with this because nothing directly contradicts it.

But the other side of the argument is that Snoke wasn't used as a vessel because he didn't have the proper genetic structure for Palpatine to transfer his essence into from the get go. I don't really disagree with this either, because nothing directly contradicts it.

Seems like a weird, centrist impulse to treat all proffered explanations as equally valid and plausible. uhuh

Originally posted by Galan007
Or that the blurbs about him possessing the power of all the Sith are just retconned entirely.

I mean...would it be THAT shocking?

Originally posted by Sheev
But you can't just handwave away Kylo here.

Because what you guys are basically saying is that Sidious was willing to body hop into ANY vessel as long as it was at least slightly better then his undead body (why else would he consider Snoke right)? So if thats the case then why wouldn't Sidious have tried body hopping into a guy who would have been perfectly suited to the role of his host?

The only reason that is given (and even emphasized) as to why Rey is the only worthy vessel to come from the experiments is that she is strong enough to hold his power, she shares the same potential for power as his original body, unlike the vessels that were created. No other reason is given.

We can't ignore what is given and make up a secondary reason and try to use that same reason to explain why he didn't consider inhabiting Kylo Ren. For all we know, Palpatine may not even be able to override the spirit of a Skywalker. Who knows, but we are already given an explanation as to why Rey is worthy a vessel as opposed to the vessels on exogol, and said reason would mean that Snoke isn't a true successor to hold Sheevs spirit otherwise Sheev would have picked him over being stuck in a vessel that couldn't even function on it's own.

If Kylo wasn't usable because he wasn't a Palpatine, the the genetic side of the debate makes even more sense.

In that case it would definitely be possible that Snoke didn't have a proper genetic structure for Sidious to transfer his essence into in the first place, so he couldn't be a vessel at all. That could be where the "nothing worked" line from the novel comes from.

You guys are so set on the idea that your conclusion is the only logical one. But it isn't.

Originally posted by Sheev
If Kylo wasn't usable because he wasn't a Palpatine, the the genetic side of the debate makes even more sense.

In that case it would definitely be possible that Snoke didn't have a proper genetic structure for Sidious to transfer his essence into in the first place, so he couldn't be a vessel at all. That could be where the "nothing worked" line from the novel comes from.

You guys are so set on the idea that your conclusion is the only logical one. But it isn't.

No, it's the opposite lol. You're the one trying to fit this genetic theory in when there is no mention of it as being a requirement at all. It's an assumption from the onset.

I think genetics was heavily implied. Otherwise what was the point of all the clones? Just inhabit any Skywalker.

Free will also seemed to be an issue as Rey had to willingly take Palpatines sprit (IIRC).

Neither of those things should be an issue with inhabiting Snoke though.

So the only factor remaining is a body that can hold his power. I personally would have thought a being on the level of ROTJ Palpatine would be sufficient.

Originally posted by Sheev
If Kylo wasn't usable because he wasn't a Palpatine, the the genetic side of the debate makes even more sense.

In that case it would definitely be possible that Snoke didn't have a proper genetic structure for Sidious to transfer his essence into in the first place, so he couldn't be a vessel at all. That could be where the "nothing worked" line from the novel comes from.

You guys are so set on the idea that your conclusion is the only logical one. But it isn't.

That Kylo Ren wasn't considered/couldn't be considered for possession by Sheev has nothing to do with whether Snoke could be possessed by Sheev.

To recap again:
[list]
[*]Snoke was a product of the program intended to create a perfect vessel for Sheev. Fact.
[*]Snoke, unlike Rey's father, is strong in the Force. Fact.
[*]Snoke's body is physically superior to Sheev's rotting clone corpse. Fact.
[*]Sheev had inert copies of Snoke's body on-hand. Fact.
[*]Sheev can transfer his consciousness to a new receptacle in seconds. Fact.
[*]Sheev is more powerful than Snoke. Fact.
[/list]
Our argument, therefore, is that Sheev did not possess one of the inert Snoke clones because Snoke was not strong enough to contain Sheev's power. This is a good argument derived from facts and not assumptions.

Your argument is that because Sheev didn't possess Kylo Ren (who is not Snoke), there must be a requirement of genetic continuity to Sheev's possession (which is an assumption, not a known fact), and that Snoke must not have met this requirement of genetic continuity (another assumption, not a known fact) despite having been created specifically to meet the requirements of a viable host in the same program that produced Rey's father and, indirectly, Rey herself.

Our argument is unquestionably better than yours. Breathe deeply, tearfully reject your argument's inadequacy, and embrace our more attractive and robust argument instead. excellent

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I think genetics was heavily implied. Otherwise what was the point of all the clones? Just inhabit any Skywalker.

Free will also seemed to be an issue as Rey had to willingly take Palpatines sprit (IIRC).

Neither of those things should be an issue with inhabiting Snoke though.

So the only factor remaining is a body that can hold his power. I personally would have thought a being on the level of ROTJ Palpatine would be sufficient.

Palpatine was trying to match his original body in terms of power, and cloning himself would be a logical way to do this especially if it's rare for a force user to be as strong as Palpatine, which is heavily implied in the movie itself. Doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with genetics.

Originally posted by Dominis
Palpatine was trying to match his original body in terms of power, and cloning himself would be a logical way to do this especially if it's rare for a force user to be as strong as Palpatine, which is heavily implied in the movie itself. Doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with genetics.

Yeah just saying there were 3 people of the Skywalkers lineage. All of whom should have the potential to hold Palps power.

Thats why a genetic compatibility would also make sense to me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That Kylo Ren wasn't considered/couldn't be considered for possession by Sheev has nothing to do with whether Snoke could be possessed by Sheev.

To recap again:
[list]
[*]Snoke was a product of the program intended to create a perfect vessel for Sheev. Fact.
[*]Snoke, unlike Rey's father, is strong in the Force. Fact.
[*]Snoke's body is physically superior to Sheev's rotting clone corpse. Fact.
[*]Sheev had inert copies of Snoke's body on-hand. Fact.
[*]Sheev can transfer his consciousness to a new receptacle in seconds. Fact.
[*]Sheev is more powerful than Snoke. Fact.
[/list]
Our argument, therefore, is that Sheev did not possess one of the inert Snoke clones because Snoke was not strong enough to contain Sheev's power. This is a good argument derived from facts and not assumptions.

Your argument is that because Sheev didn't possess Kylo Ren (who is not Snoke), there must be a requirement of genetic continuity to Sheev's possession (which is an assumption, not a known fact), and that Snoke must not have met this requirement of genetic continuity (another assumption, not a known fact) despite having been created specifically to meet the requirements of a viable host in the same program that produced Rey's father and, indirectly, Rey herself.

Our argument is unquestionably better than yours. Breathe deeply, tearfully reject your argument's inadequacy, and embrace our more attractive and robust argument instead. excellent

Your theory is based on an assumption as well. I mean it’s a valid theory, but it’s not better just because you say it is.

I think it’s more likely that Snoke wasn’t used because of genetic issues.