Big 7 vs X-men+Stips

@ds: huh? i was talking about the grodd/flash scene. but regardless--yeah, i think it's all dictated by character--which is dictated by comics. feats that are considered pis are hugely different from the norm.

chocking up an entire series (flash) as pis seems....crazy to me. every battle flash has ever had against a nonflash is pis? logan beats high bricks all the time. if he does it all the time it's still pis? bats is a perfect example. every issue of batman is pis? every time he beats a meta human it's pis? i mean sure, i guess that's what the rules say. just doesn't make sense to me, nor do i think it's necessary.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
they're X-Men. They've spent decades (aside from Mags) living with each other and training in the Danger Room together to work on how their powers complement each other. They don't all have to have been on the same team for high quality team work.

I don't see how any of that is relevant to what I just said.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i feel we may have gone over something like this before. my issue (and it's not really an issue, but rather the way i prefer to interpret the rule) is pretty straight forward--in this thread for example, it has been said that flash would beat this group because, well, he could hit the shield an infinite number of times, for example, and shatter it, that, in effect, he could have a nearly infinite amount of time to take care of business--as he does in almost every thread. it hasn't been stated directly, but the same can be said of superman.

my issue has always been that, yes, they COULD do that. and in a battleboard scenario where they fight at full capacity regardless of whether it is in character or not, they WOULD do that because doing anything else is 'illogical'.

however, that runs 100% contrary to what they WOULD do most often in a comic. even in a situation like this one it's highly unlikely he would ever use that level of speed at the outset of a battle. not because he's dumb, but because that's simply how he's portrayed. the full capacity rule in effect makes it impossible to put anyone but a flash or flash equivalent against flash. i mean, people think someone like odin has zero chance to beat the flash. to me, that's...crazy. it doesn't, and never has, made sense. it runs contrary to what we see all the time, and kills discussion. but it's not limited to speed, it's just that speed is most often the thing that bogs discussion.

i guess i could ask you the same thing i asked ds--if full capacity was eliminated, what effect do you think it would have on battles? let's say instead of full capacity, we substituted most frequent portrayal. of course there would still be arguments about what is the most frequent portrayal, but those would mostly be self evident.

the argument might go--if you don't want speed to be an issue, equalize it. or put someone else up against a speedster. problem is, non-speedsters have cool battles against speedsters all the time. then you'll say PIS! lol and i'll say it isn't pis, it's comics and that over the long haul pis is determined by its differentiation from the normal portrayal so pis gets ruled out automatically. exotic powers can still be brought up and argued as discussions ensue, but at least there COULD be discussion.

lol

tldr, but, you did ask. i'm really not trying to stir up sh!t pr, just, as always, looking for some well reasoned, and well supported discussion. the defense of full capacity just doesn't feel like 'real' support to me, and suggesting this team of powerful x-men has a chance to beat flash shouldn't feel like i have to neuter flash to give them that chance. /shrug

Honestly, it sounds like your issue is more how he's debated by people, as opposed to the guidelines set forth. Wally or Barry won't lose to most people on this board, that's true. But anyone that takes that and applies some fallacy to it? They're the idiot.

I will say that Flash is the exception rather than the rule, though. For almost every other character, I honestly think the rules work just fine. Flash is just where it gets a bit tricky. But not so tricky that it's untenable.

"Most frequent portrayal" is averages, and we go by that already for the most part.

The point of full capacity, as it were, is to make sure that characters don't forget they have certain superpowers and it costing them the fight.

fair enough. and like i said, i didn't want it to be a 'thing'. it seems to come up with speed more than anything.

i'm honestly curious though about your opinion here: if flash in a forum setting can beat down a skyfather, how does that reflect 'in character'? i mean shouldn't what he is capable of doing in a match be DICTATED by what's 'in character'? if you don't think he should be able to beat down odin, how do you justify that in a forum setting? or do you just think flash and other high end speedsters are broken?

if so, i think that kind of sucks because i don't think the CHARACTERS are broken, i think the POWER SET is. but it sucks because they are really interesting characters to discuss but, sadly, the least fun of all characters.

On forum, Flash can beat elder gods and cosmic entities.

In comics, he slips on a banana and breaks every bone in his body.

Originally posted by leonidas
fair enough. and like i said, i didn't want it to be a 'thing'. it seems to come up with speed more than anything.

i'm honestly curious though about your opinion here: if flash in a forum setting can beat down a skyfather, how does that reflect 'in character'? i mean shouldn't what he is capable of doing in a match be DICTATED by what's 'in character'? if you don't think he should be able to beat down odin, how do you justify that in a forum setting? or do you just think flash and other high end speedsters are broken?

if so, i think that kind of sucks because i don't think the CHARACTERS are broken, i think the POWER SET is. but it sucks because they are really interesting characters to discuss but, sadly, the least fun of all characters.

The problem, as I see it, is that he CAN'T beat a skyfather, nor should he. No matter how powerful a herald is supposed to be, imo, you don't get a to be a skyfather without being above petty little things like heralds. Most of the time at least.

Yes, I know that comic writers and their lack of imagination has things like Thor hurting Galactus, but that's not the average. It's not even what I would consider a high showing. Shit like that is ludicrous. It's also part of why I dislike DC now, as they've blurred the lines far too much with Superman.

You are right though: It's not the character that's broken, it's the powerset, and how people argue it.

When the top Skyfather, Odin, throws down physically with heralds like Jane etc....I mean, these tiers are forum Inventions.

Tomorrow, SBP can thrown down with Darkest Knight, Batman can fight WW, Stark can beat a herald of Galactus, Surfer can stalemate an abstract being, a mere human called Fisk can fight superhumans....why would a character have special protection just because of the tier they're in?

Originally posted by -Pr-
The problem, as I see it, is that he CAN'T beat a skyfather, nor should he. No matter how powerful a herald is supposed to be, imo, you don't get a to be a skyfather without being above petty little things like heralds. Most of the time at least.

Yes, I know that comic writers and their lack of imagination has things like Thor hurting Galactus, but that's not the average. It's not even what I would consider a high showing. Shit like that is ludicrous. It's also part of why I dislike DC now, as they've blurred the lines far too much with Superman.

You are right though: It's not the character that's broken, it's the powerset, and how people argue it.

👆 👆

not just with superman.... but i agree wholeheartedly. it is ludicrous to think flash beats a skyfather 1on1. but it isn't the flash that beats a skyfather in a forum setting, it's his powerset. but we're not supposed to debate powerset... it's really the basis of what i've been saying. i was simply looking for a way to bring character more to the forefront to allow less powerset debate, and more character debate.

and obviously a character doesn't get protection. in the case of flash beating some uber cosmic because of a whacked powerset, it's simply disingenuous to the characters and who and what they are intended to be. i agree with pr's belief that a skyfather should be above petty little things like heralds. lol but it does sort of define them, or at least the spirit of such characters, to be above. at least imo. so saying flash wins 100/100 over him? it makes no sense and isn't reflective of flash the CHARACTER.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When the top Skyfather, Odin, throws down physically with heralds like Jane etc....I mean, these tiers are forum Inventions.

Tomorrow, SBP can thrown down with Darkest Knight, Batman can fight WW, Stark can beat a herald of Galactus, Surfer can stalemate an abstract being, a mere human called Fisk can fight superhumans....why would a character have special protection just because of the tier they're in?

It isn't about protection. The rules themselves don't just apply to the people punching up. Why would a full power Odin even bother with someone like Jane? Because the comic demanded it. Not because they should be anywhere close to being equal in power on average.

Batman doesn't count. Batman never counts. SBP has an S on his chest. That alone disqualifies him too.

Surfer fighting any kind of abstract being and not getting his shit pushed in is, again, the exception, not the rule.

Calling Kingpin a mere Human? I feel like someone will be along to correct that.

Like I said though, the rules aren't just to make sure that people punching up perform at their best; they apply to the top-tier people too. If you have feats that put you in that tier on average, you're going to leave a LOT of characters behind. There are always examples that muddy it up, but they're the exception.

Originally posted by leonidas
👆 👆

not just with superman.... but i agree wholeheartedly. it is ludicrous to think flash beats a skyfather 1on1. but it isn't the flash that beats a skyfather in a forum setting, it's his powerset. but we're not supposed to debate powerset... it's really the basis of what i've been saying. i was simply looking for a way to bring character more to the forefront to allow less powerset debate, and more character debate.

and obviously a character doesn't get protection. in the case of flash beating some uber cosmic because of a whacked powerset, it's simply disingenuous to the characters and who and what they are intended to be. i agree with pr's belief that a skyfather should be above petty little things like heralds. lol but it does sort of define them, or at least the spirit of such characters, to be above. at least imo. so saying flash wins 100/100 over him? it makes no sense and isn't reflective of flash the CHARACTER.

To that I say, it's been a rule for as long as I can remember that the character is more important than the powerset. If people ignore that, then boo to them I say. BOO.

@Leo:For me, saying someone is in character doesn't mean that they are specifically limited to what that character has done on panel.

It's like I always use the 100 ton pencil example.

Superman/Hulk/Thor/Herc have lifted pencils before.
They have lifted 100 tons before
They have NOT, on panel, lifted 100 ton pencils.

We then apply logic and common sense to it. And say yes, even though they've never actually lifted a 100 ton pencil on panel, well, sure, in a forum thread they can do so, easily (assume it's a giant pencil, if people want to argue finger strength or whatever).

We know that in character, Flash doesn't like getting beaten up. We know in character, he is smart (Barry is an actual scientist, and whilst Wally isn't a genius, he's no idiot either).

Using speed defensively (or in this case, offensively to avoid getting beaten) is in character. No one is arguing powersets here.. Your constant arguing of this point is mystifying, especially as someone who says he's fully aware of what a Flash can do.

Saying it's disingenuous to what a character is 'supposed' to be is precisely giving them protection - heralds should know their place, skyfathers theirs. We know physical attacks work on Odin, on Guardians of Oa etc. We know they have reaction speeds that are of a certain level.

Saying 'it doesn't feel right' is just wrong, imo. They're comics. Invisible Woman can throw up shields that stop abstract beings. Hide an entire planet from Sentry and the entire Cancerverse. Batman has tasers that shock Superman, can take punches from WW, and can punch Zoom. Terrax can split planets apart, then fall to Tony.

And a gorilla can survive being punched across the continental US. A gorilla can also take out the Hulk (who in turn, takes out abstracts/Skyfathers). Superboy Prime can be hurt by Damian Wayne...then a few years later, is trading blows with Darkest Knight.

Your definition of in character is...that it's to do with their role in the wider comics universe.

My definition (and what the rules are, so I guess the general definition?) Is to do with their personality. Flash isn't a sadistic killer, so even though his powerset says he can start the match by sucking all the air out of the X team's lungs (Magneto's shield ain't airtight; and I don't mean the usual vortex where Chuck may still get a psiblast off I'm talking instant no air), or GL starts the match by attacking their eyes (like Stewart did to Superman), no one argues that.

Or even that Wally just....sends a time clone back into the past to kill the team as babies.

All of these are powerset debating. NO ONE IS DOING THAT.

@Pr: yeah, Fisk is on paper a mere human. Freakishly big and strong, but human.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

We know that in character, Flash doesn't like getting beaten up.

Writing off all the instances of his character struggling with slower opponents makes “in character” meaningless. /shrug

Maybe that’s the whole issue though. Flash is just not set up to be a consistently written character.

Originally posted by -Pr-
It isn't about protection. The rules themselves don't just apply to the people punching up. Why would a full power Odin even bother with someone like Jane? Because the comic demanded it. Not because they should be anywhere close to being equal in power on average.

Batman doesn't count. Batman never counts. SBP has an S on his chest. That alone disqualifies him too.

Surfer fighting any kind of abstract being and not getting his shit pushed in is, again, the exception, not the rule.

Calling Kingpin a mere Human? I feel like someone will be along to correct that.

Like I said though, the rules aren't just to make sure that people punching up perform at their best; they apply to the top-tier people too. If you have feats that put you in that tier on average, you're going to leave a LOT of characters behind. There are always examples that muddy it up, but they're the exception.

To that I say, it's been a rule for as long as I can remember that the character is more important than the powerset. If people ignore that, then boo to them I say. BOO.

This is the best post I've seen from Pr. Sadly, it will get ignored.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

We know that in character, Flash doesn't like getting beaten up.
We also know that, in character, he does get beaten up.

Writing off all the instances of his character struggling with slower opponents makes “in character” meaningless. /shrug

👆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
@Leo:For me, saying someone is in character doesn't mean that they are specifically limited to what that character has done on panel.

It's like I always use the 100 ton pencil example.

Superman/Hulk/Thor/Herc have lifted pencils before.
They have lifted 100 tons before
They have NOT, on panel, lifted 100 ton pencils.

We then apply logic and common sense to it. And say yes, even though they've never actually lifted a 100 ton pencil on panel, well, sure, in a forum thread they can do so, easily (assume it's a giant pencil, if people want to argue finger strength or whatever).

We know that in character, Flash doesn't like getting beaten up. We know in character, he is smart (Barry is an actual scientist, and whilst Wally isn't a genius, he's no idiot either).

Using speed defensively (or in this case, offensively to avoid getting beaten) is in character. [b] No one is arguing powersets here.. Your constant arguing of this point is mystifying, especially as someone who says he's fully aware of what a Flash can do.

Saying it's disingenuous to what a character is 'supposed' to be is precisely giving them protection - heralds should know their place, skyfathers theirs. We know physical attacks work on Odin, on Guardians of Oa etc. We know they have reaction speeds that are of a certain level.

Saying 'it doesn't feel right' is just wrong, imo. They're comics. Invisible Woman can throw up shields that stop abstract beings. Hide an entire planet from Sentry and the entire Cancerverse. Batman has tasers that shock Superman, can take punches from WW, and can punch Zoom. Terrax can split planets apart, then fall to Tony.

And a gorilla can survive being punched across the continental US. A gorilla can also take out the Hulk (who in turn, takes out abstracts/Skyfathers). Superboy Prime can be hurt by Damian Wayne...then a few years later, is trading blows with Darkest Knight.

Your definition of in character is...that it's to do with their role in the wider comics universe.

My definition (and what the rules are, so I guess the general definition?) Is to do with their personality. Flash isn't a sadistic killer, so even though his powerset says he can start the match by sucking all the air out of the X team's lungs (Magneto's shield ain't airtight; and I don't mean the usual vortex where Chuck may still get a psiblast off I'm talking instant no air), or GL starts the match by attacking their eyes (like Stewart did to Superman), no one argues that.

Or even that Wally just....sends a time clone back into the past to kill the team as babies.

All of these are powerset debating. NO ONE IS DOING THAT.

@Pr: yeah, Fisk is on paper a mere human. Freakishly big and strong, but human. [/B]

okay, so you're taking a fictional character, and applying your own, fictional version of that character to the forum. why your own fictional version? because apparently despite the 75 year history of on panel appearances, in comics, within the pages of the very SOURCE of what DEFINES character, you think you can have a character regularly and easily perform feats he would almost never perform, and casually destroy opponents he never would. and then you get to say doing them is in character. 😐

believe me, i'm equally mystified. i don't care if you want to try and retain personality. that isn't character. any version of flash that kills cosmics and skyfathers easily every time is manifestly NOT the flash. so maybe it's as simple as terminology. maybe it's the "in character" that i find utterly disingenuous. but just because you decide that it's flash because he doesn't kill, that doesn't mean the forum flash is reflective of the comic book character flash. not sure why that is so hard to admit, honestly.

👆

👇

👇

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

In character, Chuck doesn't put his enemies to sleep. In character, Xavier mostly uses his powers to read minds, to communicate - this can be easily shown if we take ALL of Chuck's appearances and see how he most frequently uses his powers. He very rarely uses his powers to mindphuck.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
👇

📴📴

Originally posted by leonidas

believe me, i'm equally mystified. i don't care if you want to try and retain personality. that isn't character. any version of flash that kills cosmics and skyfathers easily every time is manifestly NOT the flash. so maybe it's as simple as terminology. maybe it's the "in character" that i find utterly disingenuous. but just because you decide that it's flash because he doesn't kill, that doesn't mean the forum flash is reflective of the comic book character flash. not sure why that is so hard to admit, honestly.

I think this is it.

I define 'in character' as personality. You see it as their role in the wider universe.

And as the rules are written, I think (obv!) your definition is wrong. Would be interesting to see how others take that.

There isn’t much of a line between the two.

Flash’s personality includes not wanting to get beat up. Flash’s personality frequently allows him to get beat up.

You can strike out the whole second statement under ‘PIS’ but you don’t retain the personality. The character who comes out the other side of a formula that strikes out their whole history has not retained the thing that makes them “in character”.

That's a fair assessment, which is then where the PIS rule comes in.

Otherwise, every single villain in a battle thread will always lose somehow, especially if they face a hero/antihero. Doom will lose [somehow] to Harley Quinn, because in comics, she somehow comes through and he somehow finds a way to phuck himself over.

I mean, like you said it's probably due to Flash not being set up. He can outrun sound, light, death, speed - but a human telepath with human reactions can take him out. A gorilla with normal gorilla reactions and durability can take him out.