But that 75 years of Flash comics....are for stories. Comics.
Battleboards ignore a good story, which is precisely what you're trying to go for here. You're looking for a good match up, with good debating on both sides and scans etc. But that's still telling a story. Sure telepaths have great thinking speed feats....but they're still only human.
battleboards that don't promote discussion are....redundant. i mean how many times does someone like mrmind need to say SPEED!11! lol
we define IN CHARACTER by COMIC PORTRAYAL. full capacity is patently NOT in character. the 2 concepts are incompatible and at odds.
why would any rule that makes it effectively impossible to argue against a character like flash, or superman be a viable rule? i contend that full capacity should be DICTATED by "in character", and as far as i know, that is the spirit in which the rule was made. at least there is nothing in the rules to say that my interpretation is 'wrong'.
like i said to phil--anything that quashes fun discussion just doesn't make sense to me. the full capacity rule is like adding a second layer of fiction to the already fictional characters--we take comic characters and fit them into an even deeper level of fiction, using proofs that aren't always allowed as proofs to support situations that are...fictional. 😂
it's hilarious. let me ask you this: what if the mods voted to simply eliminate the full capacity rule right now. do you think that would help or hinder discussion? in its place, we were allowed to use whatever showings we wanted, including pis showings. the only rule--characters need to be argued in character, as portrayed in comics. do you think that would be better, or worse for the forum and for discussion? genuinely curious.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Saying he would because you want him to, isn't the same as him being willing to do it first thing as soon as the bell rings. Capability isn't up for debate as much as willingness or thoughtfulness.You're acting like Bobby would do what you would do in his place. It's not the same thing.
Them working well as a team doesn't suddenly mean they can overcome any obstacle.
they're X-Men. They've spent decades (aside from Mags) living with each other and training in the Danger Room together to work on how their powers complement each other. They don't all have to have been on the same team for high quality team work.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Not really. A character can maintain their personality while doing the best they're capable of.What is it you don't agree with?
lol
i feel we may have gone over something like this before. my issue (and it's not really an issue, but rather the way i prefer to interpret the rule) is pretty straight forward--in this thread for example, it has been said that flash would beat this group because, well, he could hit the shield an infinite number of times, for example, and shatter it, that, in effect, he could have a nearly infinite amount of time to take care of business--as he does in almost every thread. it hasn't been stated directly, but the same can be said of superman.
my issue has always been that, yes, they COULD do that. and in a battleboard scenario where they fight at full capacity regardless of whether it is in character or not, they WOULD do that because doing anything else is 'illogical'.
however, that runs 100% contrary to what they WOULD do most often in a comic. even in a situation like this one it's highly unlikely he would ever use that level of speed at the outset of a battle. not because he's dumb, but because that's simply how he's portrayed. the full capacity rule in effect makes it impossible to put anyone but a flash or flash equivalent against flash. i mean, people think someone like odin has zero chance to beat the flash. to me, that's...crazy. it doesn't, and never has, made sense. it runs contrary to what we see all the time, and kills discussion. but it's not limited to speed, it's just that speed is most often the thing that bogs discussion.
i guess i could ask you the same thing i asked ds--if full capacity was eliminated, what effect do you think it would have on battles? let's say instead of full capacity, we substituted most frequent portrayal. of course there would still be arguments about what is the most frequent portrayal, but those would mostly be self evident.
the argument might go--if you don't want speed to be an issue, equalize it. or put someone else up against a speedster. problem is, non-speedsters have cool battles against speedsters all the time. then you'll say PIS! lol and i'll say it isn't pis, it's comics and that over the long haul pis is determined by its differentiation from the normal portrayal so pis gets ruled out automatically. exotic powers can still be brought up and argued as discussions ensue, but at least there COULD be discussion.
lol
tldr, but, you did ask. i'm really not trying to stir up sh!t pr, just, as always, looking for some well reasoned, and well supported discussion. the defense of full capacity just doesn't feel like 'real' support to me, and suggesting this team of powerful x-men has a chance to beat flash shouldn't feel like i have to neuter flash to give them that chance. /shrug
Originally posted by leonidasThey might be slept on in the thread so far, but so are Lantern and Jonn.i think the fights are close, and that bobby might be being slept on a little. magik too. pr mentioned rogue could be a problem and i agree with that.
I see it as certain matchups (Diana/AM, or Jonn/Bats), a top-notch X and Mags win on their own under these stips.
The other matchups (Flash or Superman), the mutants can’t win under the full capacity rule.
If you took out Flash and Superman, and made it full team vs team, then maybe you could see Mags temporarily hold off Lantern, AM and WW (again, Magneto on his best day) while Xavier locks minds with Jonn. In that scenario, maybe Magik teleports Rogue onto Jonn, while Iceman drains AM and Storm... probably gets a batarang to the face.
We just need really specific matchups for most of the X-team to make a difference here.
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Flash need to touch him for speed steal? So if he reaches Prof X, why wouldn't he just knock him the **** out?
Making eye contact is enough sometimes.
All those exotic abilities and DC speedsters still get buttraped by talking monkeys or any brick.
Originally posted by leonidas
battleboards that don't promote discussion are....redundant. i mean how many times does someone like mrmind need to say SPEED!11! lolwe define IN CHARACTER by COMIC PORTRAYAL. full capacity is patently NOT in character. the 2 concepts are incompatible and at odds.
why would any rule that makes it effectively impossible to argue against a character like flash, or superman be a viable rule? i contend that full capacity should be DICTATED by "in character", and as far as i know, that is the spirit in which the rule was made. at least there is nothing in the rules to say that my interpretation is 'wrong'.
like i said to phil--anything that quashes fun discussion just doesn't make sense to me. the full capacity rule is like adding a second layer of fiction to the already fictional characters--we take comic characters and fit them into an even deeper level of fiction, using proofs that aren't always allowed as proofs to support situations that are...fictional. 😂
it's hilarious. let me ask you this: what if the mods voted to simply eliminate the full capacity rule right now. do you think that would help or hinder discussion? in its place, we were allowed to use whatever showings we wanted, including pis showings. the only rule--characters need to be argued in character, as portrayed in comics. do you think that would be better, or worse for the forum and for discussion? genuinely curious.
Lol, well I think then you and I will never see eye to eye on this, alas.
To address the first few points (and then your question at the end):
Speed is just...that broken. We all acknowledge that prep time, for example, is broken - that's what speed (especially at the elite level) gives you. If you wish to throw logic out, and simply base it on comics (which are NOT designed for battleboards, but designed for story-telling), that is a fundamental misunderstanding of battleboards.
Put it this way. Doomsday vs....Daredevil. Now, in comics, Doomsday was unable to kill (or even KO, IIRC) Booster Gold WITHOUT his FF. In comics, Daredevil has managed to break some pretty hardcore opponents.
Would a Doomsday/Daredevil forum thread be.....competitive? That's not even getting into arguments about holding back (Doomsday certainly doesn't!) or characters like Batman. I mean, in his entire 75 plus years of stories, Batman has never been killed by a herald level h2h beating - not when he faced WW, Darkseid, Mongul, Doomsday, Superman, Zoom, you name em, he's faced them. Hell, back to my example, WHO has Doomsday actually killed? And I don't mean random no-name Lanterns or DS' uncle, actual comic characters with more than 5 appearances, lol. Answer - no one.
Or how about WWH vs Red Hood, to the death? Red Hood has certainly killed his opponents before, IN CHARACTER. WWH - as per Pak, in his ENTIRE 50 or so years of stories, has NEVER killed his opponent, in character. So does that mean Red Hood eventually wins? That WWH will keep holding his strength/abilities back, until he eventually loses? Obviously, HOW Red Hood eventually wins is a debate, but the actual conclusion - that Red Hood DOES win, is not debatable - because in character, Jason is a killer but Bruce isn't.
That's.....silly.
So why is strength (or indeed, any other ability) given a free pass, but not speed? We know Flash isn't stupid, we have created a thread where he knows he is in a fight, and that he wants to win. You don't like how it affects threads - that's perfectly fine and OK. I mean, over the entirety of, say, Xavier's history, I bet he only uses his abilities to read minds/say 'to me, my X-men!', rather than say, put his opponents to sleep.
So shall I come into this thread and say, well, based on the entirety of his appearances, he doesn't put Flash etc to sleep, but simply reads his mind?
lol you never answered my question, but you're not really getting what i'm saying--dd/hp dd would never be competitve because in the vast majority of his appearance, dd clearly displays herald level feats, while in the vast majority of his portrayals, dd is put down by far far below herald level opponents. by most frequent portrayal, a competitive fight between dd and dd would be impossible--anything suggesting otherwise would be pis/outlier not worth considering much as it would be now.
to me, any rule that allows for flash to beat odin 100/100, while simultaneously claiming flash is IN CHARACTER while he does so is....ludicrous. /shrug it should be manifestly apparent that in character, as portrayed through history, odin would obliterate the flash. in fact, it should be nearly as lopsided as your dd/dd example. speed shouldn't be enough to take a character that far. makes no sense.
the prep idea is another one--but in prep characters are ltd by what they can get their hands on, the time they have. ss is another example. why not start every match intangible for example?
i think we could just as easily say flash COULD start at attosecond speed and win. he would do so VERY rarely. he could act in character and get mind f'd by chuck immediately. then the discussion could move on from there into a closer look at what might really happen based on BOTH characters' histories.
i truly don't see how that can be deemed pis. but this isn't the topic i wanted to get onto. lol
Originally posted by leonidas
lol you never answered my question, but you're not really getting what i'm saying--dd/hp dd would never be competitve because in the vast majority of his appearance, dd clearly displays herald level feats, while in the vast majority of his portrayals, dd is put down by far far below herald level opponents. by most frequent portrayal, a competitive fight between dd and dd would be impossible--anything suggesting otherwise would be pis/outlier not worth considering much as it would be now.to me, any rule that allows for flash to beat odin 100/100, while simultaneously claiming flash is IN CHARACTER while he does so is....ludicrous. /shrug it should be manifestly apparent that in character, as portrayed through history, odin would obliterate the flash. in fact, it should be nearly as lopsided as your dd/dd example. speed shouldn't be enough to take a character that far. makes no sense.
the prep idea is another one--but in prep characters are ltd by what they can get their hands on, the time they have. ss is another example. why not start every match intangible for example?
i think we could just as easily say flash COULD start at attosecond speed and win. he would do so VERY rarely. he could act in character and get mind f'd by chuck immediately. then the discussion could move on from there into a closer look at what might really happen based on BOTH characters' histories.
i truly don't see how that can be deemed pis. but this isn't the topic i wanted to get onto. lol
I did - if the mods took away the full capacity rule, and we only argued what was in character, then Red Hood beats WWH in a thread that is to the death.
In character, WWH never kills. In character, Red Hood does. It may take him a year, 2 years, ten years, whatever - but Hood will win, using your suggestion (in short, no, I disagree with your suggestion).
In character, Chuck doesn't put his enemies to sleep. In character, Xavier mostly uses his powers to read minds, to communicate - this can be easily shown if we take ALL of Chuck's appearances and see how he most frequently uses his powers. He very rarely uses his powers to mindphuck.
Across the vast majority - or all - of his appearances, Doomsday has never killed anyone of note. Even KOs are rare.
Across ALL of his appearances, Daredevil has never died (ok, maybe he has once or twice? but it never stuck). So...based on comics, Matt would never die. You get the point. See Batman, as well. Based on his entire history, he would mess a good many characters who are supposedly out of his tier.
But glad to see we agree on prep time being limited by, well, the time they have. Now imagine a speedster who can stretch a millisecond into days.
I mean, we have Flash and Lantern, vs Magneto, Storm, Iceman, Prof X, Rogue, Magik, Havok.
1. They all have basic knowledge of each other - which equates to a lot, actually.
2. Flash and Lantern know they're facing a top-tier telepath, and Mags etc have incredible shields.
3. They know how dangerous telepaths are - GL has Hector Hammond, Flash has Grodd. They're teammates with one of the top telepaths in DC - J'onn.
4. Neither Flash nor GL are rookies. Neither are they stupid.
5. Neither side are looking to lose - they will do their best to win their fights.
Bell rings. At which of my points do you disagree with, above? Hopefully, none.
So your reasoning is that....Flash, despite knowing what a telepath is, despite knowing he's facing one of the most (if not the most) powerful telepaths ever, despite wanting to win, is going to give....this character with human level reactions, a chance to get off an attack?
In character?
I'm not arguing OOC attacks. I'm not saying Wally suddenly brings 10,000 time displaced clones, or burns Chuck's eyes out or whatever. Full capacity, but in character, he speedsteals. Wins the fight, doesn't hurt anyone, shuts his opponents down.
And if you bring up Grodd etc, well....that's for the story. That's PIS.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I did - if the mods took away the full capacity rule, and we only argued what was in character, then Red Hood beats WWH in a thread that is to the death.In character, WWH never kills. In character, Red Hood does. It may take him a year, 2 years, ten years, whatever - but Hood will win, using your suggestion (in short, no, I disagree with your suggestion).
In character, Chuck doesn't put his enemies to sleep. In character, Xavier mostly uses his powers to read minds, to communicate - this can be easily shown if we take ALL of Chuck's appearances and see how he most frequently uses his powers. He very rarely uses his powers to mindphuck.
Across the vast majority - or all - of his appearances, Doomsday has never killed anyone of note. Even KOs are rare.
Across ALL of his appearances, Daredevil has never died (ok, maybe he has once or twice? but it never stuck). So...based on comics, Matt would never die. You get the point. See Batman, as well. Based on his entire history, he would mess a good many characters who are supposedly out of his tier.
But glad to see we agree on prep time being limited by, well, the time they have. Now imagine a speedster who can stretch a millisecond into days.
your red hood/hulk example makes no sense though because we know hood has been put down by way less regularly and hulk has beaten far more regularly. hulk ko's hood, match done. it's not about a character never dying. lol characters get ko'd all the time and in character superman in a forum setting wouldn't kill his opponents anyway. /shrug
why would dd need to kill to win a match? he could, if the stip says to the death. you're trying to take the suggestion to an illogical end to prove a point, but there's no reason to TAKE IT to that end.
but it's interesting that you say that IN CHARACTER chuck doesn't put anyone to sleep. but you're supposed to use the characters as if they ARE in character.
so again, just tell me how a rule that lets flash ko odin in the forst nanosecond 100/100 times also be considered "in character"?
Originally posted by leonidas
your red hood/hulk example makes no sense though because we know hood has been put down by way less regularly and hulk has beaten far more regularly. hulk ko's hood, match done. it's not about a character never dying. lol characters get ko'd all the time and in character superman in a forum setting wouldn't kill his opponents anyway. /shrug
That's exactly why I stipulated the win conditions of my theoretical thread - that it's to the death. Under those stips, Hood will win (eventually) because in character, he is perfectly willing to kill, but WWH isn't (thanks to Pak). KOs won't end the match, only death (so imagine a magical restart button that acts everytime one is beaten into a coma or something).
why would dd need to kill to win a match? he could, if the stip says to the death. you're trying to take the suggestion to an illogical end to prove a point, but there's no reason to TAKE IT to that end.
but it's interesting that you say that IN CHARACTER chuck doesn't put anyone to sleep. but you're supposed to use the characters as if they ARE in character. so again, just tell me how a rule that lets flash ko odin in the forst nanosecond 100/100 times also be considered "in character"?
I mean, across all of Chuck's 1,000s of appearances, how often does he put people to sleep? Is it the majority of times? Count up every time he uses his powers - whether it be read minds, call for help, creates mindlinks for his team, uses it for detecting people, or probe for lies,information transfer, talking to Magneto, creates illusions etc etc etc.
Then tell me what Chuck, 'on average', does with his powers.
And then tell me, 'on average', how quickly he uses his powers.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, we have Flash and Lantern, vs Magneto, Storm, Iceman, Prof X, Rogue, Magik, Havok.1. They all have basic knowledge of each other - which equates to a lot, actually.
2. Flash and Lantern [b]know
they're facing a top-tier telepath, and Mags etc have incredible shields.3. They know how dangerous telepaths are - GL has Hector Hammond, Flash has Grodd. They're teammates with one of the top telepaths in DC - J'onn.
4. Neither Flash nor GL are rookies. Neither are they stupid.
5. Neither side are looking to lose - they will do their best to win their fights.
Bell rings. At which of my points do you disagree with, above? Hopefully, none.[/b]
👆
So your reasoning is that....Flash, despite knowing what a telepath is, despite knowing he's facing one of the most (if not the most) powerful telepaths ever, despite wanting to win, is going to give....this character with human level reactions, a chance to get off an attack? In character?I'm not arguing OOC attacks. I'm not saying Wally suddenly brings 10,000 time displaced clones, or burns Chuck's eyes out or whatever. Full capacity, but in character, he speedsteals. Wins the fight, doesn't hurt anyone, shuts his opponents down.
And if you bring up Grodd etc, well....that's for the story. That's PIS. [/B]
speed steal wouldn't stop chuck thinking sleep unless, as i said, he steals all ke and that would likely kill chuck and the others. also not sure if he's ever done that...
but why stop at 1000 clones? it would make things easier, the clones don't need to kill anyone, just help win the fight. if we looked at his fights with grodd, he seems to win all the time. how?
again, you want to take the idea to illogical ends. my original questions was how do you think fights would change if full capacity were simply removed? you think it would help discussion, or hurt it?
again, a rule that let's flash times odin 100/100 is not a rule is compatible with IN CHARACTER. that's all i'm saying.
i simply would like a rule in place that would allow characters like flash and superman to take part in matches that require some actual discussion without the need to feel like they are being neutered.
of course it exists i guess--stips can account for anything, so..... lol this is all meaningless and things won't change. i'll drop it now because you're right we won't agree on it. c'est la vie.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85That's exactly why I stipulated the win conditions of my theoretical thread - that it's to the death. Under those stips, Hood will win (eventually) because in character, he is perfectly willing to kill, but WWH isn't (thanks to Pak). KOs won't end the match, only death (so imagine a magical restart button that acts everytime one is beaten into a coma or something).
this is still wrong because the stips dictate that in this case hulk will kill him....and he has killed before, so....
To show you the consequences of 'only using comics', when we both know it's completely different from 'battleboards'. One tells a story, and needs to preserve the status quo for next week's issue/next month's storyline. If Flash handily defeats Grodd by just being faster - how is Grodd ever being a worthy opponent next month, or next year?
it's not only using comics--it's also common sense.
Because in character, Flash doesn't want to lose a fight, doesn't want to be physically beaten by Gungnir/eyeblasted by Odin, and in character, isn't so stupid he forgets that he has a way to win 100/100 times.
how do we determine character?
I mean, across all of Chuck's 1,000s of appearances, how often does he put people to sleep? Is it the majority of times? Count up every time he uses his powers - whether it be read minds, call for help, creates mindlinks for his team, uses it for detecting people, or probe for lies,information transfer, talking to Magneto, creates illusions etc etc etc.
how does he most often use his powers in a BATTLE?
And then tell me, 'on average', how quickly he uses his powers. [/B]
to see find that out you'd need to look at how quickly he can and has used them against speedsters since he has that knowledge.
there would be some battles he gets off a shot, some he wouldn't have a chance to. the only interesting discussion stems from the OTHER battles.
back to the battle:
i think we can both agree a battle between chuck and flash is a terrible match up lol one takes the other out quickly. without a shield, standard distance, standard knowledge, flash love taps him for a ko almost everytime.
with the shield in place, i don't see flash taking him out before chuck puts him to sleep--not unless he goes forum flash which i THINK we both consider ooc. /shrug
Originally posted by leonidas
👆speed steal wouldn't stop chuck thinking sleep unless, as i said, he steals all ke and that would likely kill chuck and the others. also not sure if he's ever done that...
but why stop at 1000 clones? it would make things easier, the clones don't need to kill anyone, just help win the fight. if we looked at his fights with grodd, he seems to win all the time. how?
again, you want to take the idea to illogical ends. my original questions was how do you think fights would change if full capacity were simply removed? you think it would help discussion, or hurt it?
again, a rule that let's flash times odin 100/100 is not a rule is compatible with IN CHARACTER. that's all i'm saying.
i simply would like a rule in place that would allow characters like flash and superman to take part in matches that require some actual discussion without the need to feel like they are being neutered.
of course it exists i guess--stips can account for anything, so..... lol this is all meaningless and things won't change. i'll drop it now because you're right we won't agree on it. c'est la vie.
Not quite true.
When he stole the speed of Girder, he stopped him from feeling:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_super/14/145371/3014870-speedstealgirdir.jpg
He stole the speed from some cops which slowed their blood down:
https://i.imgur.com/fJaJgvX.jpg
Both times, obv, his targets weren't killed - but say (as an example) if Chuck's bloodflow was slowed down and his brain didn't get enough oxygen, KOing him? I know you will argue that in those few seconds it takes, Chuck could still think 'sleep', but my point is not that. My point is that he has done it to slow down internal processes like neurons (Girder feeling pain) and blood (those cops).
But as I said, removing it hurts discussions.
Originally posted by leonidas
this is still wrong because the stips dictate that in this case hulk will kill him....and he has killed before, so....
it's not only using comics--it's also common sense.
how do we determine character?how does he most often use his powers in a BATTLE?
to see find that out you'd need to look at how quickly he can and has used them against speedsters since he has that knowledge.
there would be some battles he gets off a shot, some he wouldn't have a chance to. the only interesting discussion stems from the OTHER battles.
Then what proportion of the time IN BATTLE does Chuck use 'sleep' as opposed to anything else?
