What is standard equipment???

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
in many of the instances in which the two are together, boything STILL generally acts independently to blade. You could push the pet angle to an extent but I dunno bout even going that route given it's a sentient creature beyond a devil dinosaur or something of that nature. For me.. they come off as traveling companions, or even blade as protector but it still acts far more like it's own entity then a klyntar does to call it a symbiotic relationship of that nature even if it has benefits when they act in tandem (which characters like blue marvel and spectrum have entire runs together and similar fusion benefits but you wouldnt call one or the other gear, or a pet).

Its.. murky. You can make a case for.. make one against and it doesnt quite fit solidly cause it's just similar enough but unique in it's own right to still be just different enough.

it was really only that one ghost rider story, which was to more reveal that boy-thing is emotionally bonded to Blade and vice-versa. Other than that, there really aren't too many times when boy-thing acts independently of Blade, especially in combat. I agree that he doesn't operate similar to venom, the venom point I made initially was that evidence of independence isn't sufficient to explain a lack of connection, not that the two were comparable.

To your point re: spectrum and blue marvel, I'd agree and I don't think you could ever make the argument that one of them is equipment. BT was very clearly introduced as such (equipment). That's the main difference. Like the point I made before, if we were to make a thread including the Shadow Colonel, BT would clearly be included as his equipment.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Just catching up on this..

Heh! Moon Knight meets the definition of not having standard gear too; but I made it work within the rules

No I state what version that is being used. I don’t refer to weapons he specifically used during Bendis run or West Coast Avengers as their not a common occurrence to meet the definition of standard gear for current MK.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Who are you?

What have you done with DS85?

But yeah, I agree. Wanted to mention Skuttlebutt, too.

Another possible examples - Kitty and Lockheed, Thanos and Skreet.

The argument of "we should feel sorry for Blade and give him a sentient being that he doesn't have at all times" didn't exactly strike the emotional chord for me.

Originally posted by -K-M-
No I state what version that is being used. I don’t refer to weapons he specifically used during Bendis run or West Coast Avengers as their not a common occurrence to meet the definition of standard gear for current MK.

Boy Thing is a separate entity. Frenchie operates the Mooncopter and has fought with MK in battles but I can’t use him in every MK battle here unless otherwise stated *shrugs*

If someone makes a thread and includes Boy-Thing then it’s fair game. I wouldn’t say BT meets the definition of standard equipment especially as there is instances where he doesn’t always use Boy Thing even in the small amount of appearances he has been in.

MK literally can channel a god into his being and gives him augmentations on the fly, but again I don’t consider that standard tactic in a fight as it’s not common enough

I mean I just looked through these threads:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=669529&highlight=title%3A%28moon+knight%29+forumid%3A77

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=617432

Based on the point you're holding right now, these points you made about Moon Knight's equipment would be thrown out.

Like you directly argue there that his equipment from a previous run should count.

Even then, we are talking about Blade in his current run, not what he has left over from a previous run.

Re: Philosophia's point

No it's not limited, it's virtually nonexistent based on that criteria. Like I'm noting, that is not the precedent for said characters with variable equipment.

Originally posted by Trackz
I mean I just looked through these threads:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=669529&highlight=title%3A%28moon+knight%29+forumid%3A77

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=617432

Based on the point you're holding right now, these points you made about Moon Knight's equipment would be thrown out.

Like you directly argue there that his equipment from a previous run should count.

Even then, we are talking about Blade in his current run, not what he has left over from a previous run.

Why did you even post the first link? It’s a joke 😬 and made no mention of standard gear

Second link is from 2015. So yes it no longer applies, but then it did and the sneaky face is also an indication it’s in tongue and cheek

Yeah no different then Iron Man’s various suits. Feats don’t always translate to his new suit being able to replicate

Re: Frenchie,

People are ignoring that BT was literally introduced as gear. grown to be used as a weapon.

I had meant to post this vs. Gambit:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=649493&highlight=title%3A%28moon+knight%29+forumid%3A77

Where you basically argue that Moon Knight's armor should retain the feats/gear that it has shown in a previous arc even though it has not been demonstrated to do so in the current arc, after someone argues his hi-tech gear shouldn't be standard. The argument is the same "Moon knight hasn't been shown to be using any of this" and you arguing that it is logically consistent with what he has shown previously even though he is choosing not to use his high-tech gear and hasn't done so for a number of issues. This isn't a criticism of you. The entire point is that, this type of argumentation is common place for such characters and rarely is it much of a sticking point.

The main difference is, based on our definition, Blade, a character who always has a varied arsenal on him would be depicted as having next to no arsenal in a vs. thread because he changes up his weaponry too much. That pushes us away from the spirit of what standard is supposed to entail.

Like I said, people are open to define what they mean for standard in the future.

Originally posted by Trackz
Re: Frenchie,

People are ignoring that BT was literally introduced as gear. grown to be used as a weapon.

And frenchie is a trained soldier using equipment built by MK and him and they have been teammates for decades. He is meant to be a resource to be called on at all times to support him. He was born and raised to be a solider and merc to be used by the highest bidder until MK changed him

I think the big issue for me is BT isn’t used enough in my books to be considered standard. As I mention if the thread starter includes him in the opening post then it’s fair game.

Originally posted by Trackz
I had meant to post this vs. Gambit:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=649493&highlight=title%3A%28moon+knight%29+forumid%3A77

Where you basically argue that Moon Knight's armor should retain the feats/gear that it has shown in a previous arc even though it has not been demonstrated to do so in the current arc, after someone argues his hi-tech gear shouldn't be standard. The argument is the same "Moon knight hasn't been shown to be using any of this" and you arguing that it is logically consistent with what he has shown previously even though he is choosing not to use his high-tech gear and hasn't done so for a number of issues. This isn't a criticism of you. The entire point is that, this type of argumentation is common place for such characters and rarely is it much of a sticking point.

Not seeing the contradiction. In that run he was using past equipment and armour that were stored in his “moon cave”. So again during the time of 2018 that fits

Even referenced him using his past technology in a recent volume (for that time)

Do you not see the difference between Frenchie and Boy-Thing? If Moon Knight was beating people over the head with Frenchie, or tossing his dismembers arms at enemies, you'd have a point. Boy-thing can be used to fight.

The real contention is around what constitutes standard, not whether or not BT is a piece of equipment. The batmobile is a fair point of discussion. Skuttblebutt, etc. Ghost Riders bike/car. These are things that are literally used, and in some cases act independently (especially Ghost Riders car). But a semi-sentient/sentient being USED to fight is not the same as another character providing conditional support. Ghost Rider's car, for instance, often acts independently of him, and he has often lost control of it. Obviously the car meets everyones definition of standard because he uses it so routinely and was introduced with it.

Point here isn't that BT has been used by Blade the same amount, point here is we need to agree on the category of being we're talking about.

Stupid edit button was going to mention in the 2018 run he had 4 different armors and suits and depending on the circumstances would use them for different purposes. One was high durability armour, one was cloth for stealth and melee, one was strictly magical and another was technology infused

I think thread starters just need to be clear what versions they are to avoid any confusion

Originally posted by Trackz
Do you not see the difference between Frenchie and Boy-Thing? If Moon Knight was beating people over the head with Frenchie, or tossing his dismembers arms at enemies, you'd have a point. Boy-thing can be used to fight.

The real contention is around what constitutes standard, not whether or not BT is a piece of equipment. The batmobile is a fair point of discussion. Skuttblebutt, etc. Ghost Riders bike/car. These are things that are literally used, and in some cases act independently (especially Ghost Riders car). But a semi-sentient/sentient being USED to fight is not the same as another character providing conditional support. Ghost Rider's car, for instance, often acts independently of him, and he has often lost control of it. Obviously the car meets everyones definition of standard because he uses it so routinely and was introduced with it.

Point here isn't that BT has been used by Blade the same amount, point here is we need to agree on the category of being we're talking about.

Frenchie pilots the Mooncopter a thing, Moon Knight also has the angel wing, a thing. It all applies

Frenchies just shoots at things rather then throws body parts around

Batman actually was using baby darkseid as a tool and a weapon. Don’t see anyone using that as standard gear

Re: contradiction

The user was arguing, Moon Knight no longer can use these things because they he hasn't been depicted with them on this run, and so they are no longer standard.

Your argument was he still has access to this equipment even if he isn't using it, because it ties to a previous run when he used to use it.

That's my point. Your contention seems to be that boy-thing doesn't count as equipment. That's separate. The one I'm noting is if we note he's equipment, would it be standard. My point is based on other characters with variable equipment we don't apply the strict standard of "use all the time". I had thought you were saying you don't do that with Moon Knight, and I was showing that yea you more or less have to if the equipment hasn't been clarified, and that thread was an example. Someone saying "Moon Knight hasn't used this at all" and you saying "Yes, but this directly connects to another volume in which he had access to it and used it". However, based on this thread, your argument there would be against the rules.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Frenchie pilots the Mooncopter a thing, Moon Knight also has the angel wing, a thing. It all applies

Frenchies just shoots at things rather then throws body parts around

Batman actually was using baby darkseid as a tool and a weapon. Don’t see anyone using that as standard gear

I don't understand the mooncopter point. Frenchie using equipment that belongs to moon knight makes him equipment? I'm not saying Boy-thing uses Blade's swords, I'm saying Blade has made more consistent use of boy-thing as equipment (for swords, for armor, for travel) relative to other equipment we'd consisder standard for him.

If moon knight used angel wing at least once in most of his arcs for the past few years, you wouldn't consider that standard? If Moon knight used the angel wing more that most of his others weapons, you wouldn't bring it up in vs. threads?

The reason people aren't considering baby darkseid as a weapon, is because Batman didn't make use of baby darkseid for year and was shown having him in the majority of arcs that he was a part of.

Originally posted by Trackz
Re: contradiction

The user was arguing, Moon Knight no longer can use these things because they he hasn't been depicted with them on this run, and so they are no longer standard.

Your argument was he still has access to this equipment even if he isn't using it, because it ties to a previous run when he used to use it.

That's my point. Your contention seems to be that boy-thing doesn't count as equipment. That's separate. The one I'm noting is if we note he's equipment, would it be standard. My point is based on other characters with variable equipment we don't apply the strict standard of "use all the time". I had thought you were saying you don't do that with Moon Knight, and I was showing that yea you more or less have to if the equipment hasn't been clarified, and that thread was an example. Someone saying "Moon Knight hasn't used this at all" and you saying "Yes, but this directly connects to another volume in which he had access to it and used it". However, based on this thread, your argument there would be against the rules.

That’s because they didn’t read the current run and explained was still valid and even used an example of him using the angel wing which they originally said he didn’t have it. No contradiction

I don’t even know if current still has his tickle trunk, but in 2018 that was a story point due to his split personalities his tactics and weapons would change on the fly but was still using all the things they said they didn’t have. Even the superhuman strength portion, but now current MK has gone back to more peak human form and his weapons are more limited...other then his ankh that he used to steal the avengers powers

Naaaaa what I’m saying still follows the rules. Yet I still knew not to include him bringing the Mooncopter into battle (which he can himself) or use frenchie as support even though it’s a far more common occurrence then blade using BT.

In the end I think mods need to determine the call of what is standard. My point is depending on the time periods the standard equipment can and will change.

You're missing the point though based on the argument. You're saying "this person didn't know he had used it so I offered a correction". The point being made is that the user could have come back and shown more issues of him not using it and say it's not standard, even if there's no narrative reason to assume there's a shift in standard gear. So everything you just mentioned wouldn't be standard. His ankh wouldn't be standard. His trunk wouldn't be standard. If I can show several instances, regardless of its explained or not, of him *not* having an item, it would not be standard. The definition of standard means Moon Knight would also never have standard equipment. Like give me an example of a piece of Moon Knight equipment you would argue he has in a current debate if ALL that was said was "standard equipment". Like your point about "here's an example of him using this thing once that they said he didn't have" would fail to meet the standard we're discussing in this thread.

The frenchie example still doesn't fit.

Re: blade using boy-thing, again

Blade has used him or had him in battle in most of the Avengers arcs over the past 2 years.

I’m not missing the point, but I do believe you are not understanding what I’m saying.

we could go back and forth and doesn’t solve anything. In the end I do think the definition of standard gear does need to be more clear. Currently it creates this grey area which is case in point and fully support a more in-depth review.