Originally posted by Trackz
I dont understand this point, since its been stated that sentient/semi-sentient creatures do qualify as standard equipment.But the point of my edit was characters like Blade have very variable equipment mission to mission. He doesn't have a captain America shield or Thor hammer. During any given story, youre liable to see Blade use two or three new weapons he hasn't shown consistently before. With characters like Blade we establish standard by what he has used the most consistently. The main point is that if we apply this standard, Blade doesn't have standard equipment at all.
Originally posted by Trackz
yea i agree, and BT has been used as equipment in the majority of his appearances. Honestly the ghost rider story is the only time where we see boy-thing actively protects the people he bonds to. Id say the argument here is whether BT should count as standard, not whether he would qualify as equipment. If we were to make a thread with the Shadow Colonel, he would meet everyone's definition as standard.
I dont really see him fitting what we usually call standard equipment, nor even a symbiotic relationship. As I said before he's more a unique fusion derived from plot purposes to specific encounters. If there was an established "to me boything" like a set of iron man armor I could see an actual argument for.
As for blades armament, I mean it's generally the same as punisher in so much as you may not be able to whittle it to a specific SMG, shotgun, or rifle, but there is enough consistency in weapons to know which part of his arsenal he may have and which part (like goblin glider, klaws hand, etc) are specialty that he has to consciously decide "I'm taking this to this specific engagement for this specific reason" and for all intents and purposes that's how I view boything, even when the decision to show up is plot driving BT against blades desires. Man thing has all the powers to legit do the on call teleportation and long distance tp.. but I'm wary of calling him standard until I see something to that affect on page. Otherwise I treat him like any other fusion between two characters who travel together, they are still seperate entities.
Heck even with the venom example you still have to specifically state which host of the symbiote you are using and in this regard because of just how much a power boost boything brings I'd call it the same.. you have to state boything-blade otherwise even open debates are straight spite from blades current tier.
I'm reticent at going that route off what I've read so far. Multiple instances of intentionally being left back or not being used in that fashion unless necessary.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But that is NOT how the forum rules work.Batman doesn't have the Batmobile, Batwing, Batcycle etc in a forum thread - even though he can easily summon them remotely, and has had them since, well, forever.
https://imgur.com/a/fq7zY
https://imgur.com/a/QHzZZCan drive autonomously:
https://imgur.com/a/qCDKDAnd uses them against tougher foes:
https://imgur.com/a/PNX0NI mean, Jeez, imagine if I tried saying the Hellbat armour was standard equipment - because Bruce had it for X years, and could summon it at any time (of course, it is broken now, but you get my point) it would be [b]stupid of me
:
https://imgur.com/a/tE3nafeNow, onto BRB:
Skuttlebutt is a pretty sentient being:
https://i.imgur.com/GqGulSl.jpgYes, I can EASILY find multiple issues and comics where he fights alongside BRB - but forum rules state in a thread, unless noted, BRB DOESN'T have Skuttlebutt.
Forum rules state (which I quoted at the start of the thread):
Alberto, good points. [/B]
Pretty much. 👍
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ah.So you agree with it?
Cool. Let's read it again:
"something that you have with you AT ALL TIMES" (emphasis mine)
Remind me about the Khonshu arc, again? You keep dancing around it and hand waving it away, but the fact that we both agree he had an entire arc without it being seen (let's ignore our disagreement over the War of the Realms lol), means....
Unless of course, you are cherry picking which parts of that post you agree with?
This isnt difficult and you are selectively paying attention. There's a fair disagreement here and the point im raising is one of nuance. Im not frustrated with you because I think youre stupid, im frustrated because you are consistently misrepresenting positions at every turn to score cheap points.
The point that I have consistently made that hasn't been engaged with is that the standard for what is considered standard obviously varies for characters that use different arsenals. I didnt make that point about Batman because it doesn't apply to him. His belt is magic in that way for narrative purposes. Im making the point about characters like Deadpool, Bucky, Punisher, Blade, etc. where on any given mission, you'll likely see them whip out new pieces of equipment for the sake of the story. In Avengers we've seen Blade bring no equipment to a fight, we've seen Blade bring machine guns to a fight, we've seen him bring a hell fire shotgun, we've seen him use nunchucks, explosives, c4, etc. AND we have seen him with BT. Most of the time we see these once or twice over the course of years. This is because the narrative part of what writers like to do with Blade is have him use something new or "cool" for a mission.
The problem then becomes that all of these various pieces of equipment meet the loosely defined metric of standard because they're equipment that the character will have in a regular story with no prep time. The issue becomes in forum threads when the equipment in question becomes the thing that can swing a match. Stilt has made the same argument about Blade's swords and whether they were adamantium. The same argument being "they've only been described that way once and we have no evidence that they continued to be". This argument of applying the same standard specifications we have for Thor just makes characters like Blade, who has his equipment varied, nonviable on these forums.
People are casually saying "well of course his vampire hunting equipment would count" but haven't read the character and so aren't actually engaged with what that means. Blade has had no consistent vampire hunting equipment since the movies dropped. And so what we do with characters like these, is apply the standard of "well what do they have on them most consistently". Thats one or two swords for Blades, even though there are storylines and arcs where he has none. Thats various firearms, even though there are several storylines where he has none. Thats stakes, even though he has barely used them for years. And if that is the standard BT has been his among his most consistent equipment for the past 2 years.
This is the point I've consistently made. Yes you can show an arc where he doesn't have BT. Im not ignoring this point. I can show a storyline where he doesn't use swords, where he doesn't use stakes, where he doesn't use guns, etc.
So what you're saying is, for Blade, he has in fact NO standard equipment? Cool.
If people want to make threads with Punisher etc, then they should specify his armament, I 10,000% agree.
I don't, however automatically assume he's in an old Iron Man MK2 armour just because the last few issues I read him in, he was wearing it.
But good point on Blade not having standard equipment.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I dont really see him fitting what we usually call standard equipment, nor even a symbiotic relationship. As I said before he's more a unique fusion derived from plot purposes to specific encounters. If there was an established "to me boything" like a set of iron man armor I could see an actual argument for.As for blades armament, I mean it's generally the same as punisher in so much as you may not be able to whittle it to a specific SMG, shotgun, or rifle, but there is enough consistency in weapons to know which part of his arsenal he may have and which part (like goblin glider, klaws hand, etc) are specialty that he has to consciously decide "I'm taking this to this specific engagement for this specific reason" and for all intents and purposes that's how I view boything, even when the decision to show up is plot driving BT against blades desires. Man thing has all the powers to legit do the on call teleportation and long distance tp.. but I'm wary of calling him standard until I see something to that affect on page. Otherwise I treat him like any other fusion between two characters who travel together, they are still seperate entities.
Heck even with the venom example you still have to specifically state which host of the symbiote you are using and in this regard because of just how much a power boost boything brings I'd call it the same.. you have to state boything-blade otherwise even open debates are straight spite from blades current tier.
I'm reticent at going that route off what I've read so far. Multiple instances of intentionally being left back or not being used in that fashion unless necessary.
Pretty much. 👍
Yea id recommend reading how BT was introduced as a character. Narratively he is described as a source of ammunition for a character. We have to acknowledge that BT has been equipment. If you're saying the specific Blade-Boything fusion we see during the starbrand arc is not standard yea, but that was never my argument. Blade doesn't start off covered in green armor, my point he starts off with BT on his shoulder.
Re: plot purposes, that's just not true. In the vampire arc, he acquires BT after freeing him. In the Ghost Rider arc he's walking around the Avengers mansion with BT and brings him to exorcise Ghost Riders car. There's no narrative "i need BT for this". In war of the realms he's going vampire hunting and has BT with him. There's no narrative "I need BT for these specific vampires". He brings BT to space, not knowing what they'll find or that he has any weakness to red sun light. The point is its usually the opposite. Blade doesn't have BT because they need something to look after the starbrand for instance.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85honestly this might be the point of agreement. Blade, punisher, etc. HAVE no standard equipment. My point consistently has been that we have an implicit understanding of what qualifies as standard for them, and that implicit understanding would qualify BT. If we want to make it a rule that equipment needs to be defined when these characters are used, thats fine. My main argument has been that BT qualifies based on the implicit understanding of BT for these characters and so would qualify when not stated based on that precedent, since it is not explicitly defined how to handle equipment for such characters.
So what you're saying is, for Blade, he has in fact NO standard equipment? Cool.If people want to make threads with Punisher etc, then they should specify his armament, I 10,000% agree.
I don't, however automatically assume he's in an old Iron Man MK2 armour just because the last few issues I read him in, he was wearing it.
But good point on Blade not having standard equipment.
And again though, let's stop the dishonesty. We're not talking about a "few issues" we're talking about years.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85and ghost rider almost always has his car/motor cycle. Lets stop pretending like these examples are things that are adhered to with any consistency. The truth is the rules are seeking to get to the narrative norm for what that character would have to fight. There isn't a set number of appearances that would shift that for Batman or Beta Ray Bill. Im not making the argument that Blade needs his motorcycle, even though thats consistently been his mode of travel.This is why the example of Aquamarine was brought up. He's someone that has his narrative norm shifted under different writers. Blade is the same. We have to be honest.
And Bats has the Batmobile. BRB almost always has Skuttlebutt.Yet.....
The point being, it was never explained why Blade didn't just travel around fighting Malekith's armies with BT. You were saying it was always explained within the plot why BT wasn't there.
And as for your prior post, it's always been there in forum rules. They are assumed to have what they consistently have, if not specified, or if the thread says standard equipment.
Your point that Blade et al don't have standard gear, means....well, it's just Blade with no weapons or tools, Vs Batman (as an example completely off the top of my head)with all of HIS standard gear.
We do that as a rule anyway already. Kingpin is specified as having his cane, without the stip, we assume no cane, for example.
Originally posted by Trackz
Yea id recommend reading how BT was introduced as a character. Narratively he is described as a source of ammunition for a character. We have to acknowledge that BT has been equipment. If you're saying the specific Blade-Boything fusion we see during the starbrand arc is not standard yea, but that was never my argument. Blade doesn't start off covered in green armor, my point he starts off with BT on his shoulder.Re: plot purposes, that's just not true. In the vampire arc, he acquires BT after freeing him. In the Ghost Rider arc he's walking around the Avengers mansion with BT and brings him to exorcise Ghost Riders car. There's no narrative "i need BT for this". In war of the realms he's going vampire hunting and has BT with him. There's no narrative "I need BT for these specific vampires". He brings BT to space, not knowing what they'll find or that he has any weakness to red sun light. The point is its usually the opposite. Blade doesn't have BT because they need something to look after the starbrand for instance.
Originally posted by Trackz
This isnt difficult and you are selectively paying attention. There's a fair disagreement here and the point im raising is one of nuance. Im not frustrated with you because I think youre stupid, im frustrated because you are consistently misrepresenting positions at every turn to score cheap points.The point that I have consistently made that hasn't been engaged with is that the standard for what is considered standard obviously varies for characters that use different arsenals. I didnt make that point about Batman because it doesn't apply to him. His belt is magic in that way for narrative purposes. Im making the point about characters like Deadpool, Bucky, Punisher, Blade, etc. where on any given mission, you'll likely see them whip out new pieces of equipment for the sake of the story. In Avengers we've seen Blade bring no equipment to a fight, we've seen Blade bring machine guns to a fight, we've seen him bring a hell fire shotgun, we've seen him use nunchucks, explosives, c4, etc. AND we have seen him with BT. Most of the time we see these once or twice over the course of years. This is because the narrative part of what writers like to do with Blade is have him use something new or "cool" for a mission.
The problem then becomes that all of these various pieces of equipment meet the loosely defined metric of standard because they're equipment that the character will have in a regular story with no prep time. The issue becomes in forum threads when the equipment in question becomes the thing that can swing a match. Stilt has made the same argument about Blade's swords and whether they were adamantium. The same argument being "they've only been described that way once and we have no evidence that they continued to be". This argument of applying the same standard specifications we have for Thor just makes characters like Blade, who has his equipment varied, nonviable on these forums.
People are casually saying "well of course his vampire hunting equipment would count" but haven't read the character and so aren't actually engaged with what that means. Blade has had no consistent vampire hunting equipment since the movies dropped. And so what we do with characters like these, is apply the standard of "well what do they have on them most consistently". Thats one or two swords for Blades, even though there are storylines and arcs where he has none. Thats various firearms, even though there are several storylines where he has none. Thats stakes, even though he has barely used them for years. And if that is the standard BT has been his among his most consistent equipment for the past 2 years.
This is the point I've consistently made. Yes you can show an arc where he doesn't have BT. Im not ignoring this point. I can show a storyline where he doesn't use swords, where he doesn't use stakes, where he doesn't use guns, etc.
I get what you mean, but if you go that route you now gotta treat blade as an S-tier which is my sticking point here as he no longer tiers where he should on his own but high enough to be an issue to surfer without enough feats to actually defend him in a discussion. It essentially sidelined the whole character from most discussions where as base blade is actually a pretty strong in tier character for most comic based debates. And while boything may have been around at various points he doesnt necessarily get involved unless the threat demanded it. Like the khonshu arc when blade was helping Cap rescue Danny and strange and did so with his base abilities.
To the bats example by saint, we put limitations on Tony Stark even though he can at any moment summon all his armors and they can function completely independent. Mostly cause you start pushing guys out of tier for the discussion if in a random encounter you let guys like Bruce or Tony remote summon gear, much of which still relies on a 3rd entity (like an advanced A.I. housed at stark enterprises or the watch tower/bat cave) that actually does the work. To me that kinda fits outside help since its beyond partitioned suit a.i. at that point.
I mean I get the reason why you would.. but to me it just sidelines the character and it's just not solidified in stories to such a degree yet that I'd go that route.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The point being, it was never explained why Blade didn't just travel around fighting Malekith's armies with BT. You were saying it was always explained within the plot why BT wasn't there.And as for your prior post, it's always been there in forum rules. They are assumed to have what they [b] consistently
have, if not specified, or if the thread says standard equipment.Your point that Blade et al don't have standard gear, means....well, it's just Blade with no weapons or tools, Vs Batman (as an example completely off the top of my head)with all of HIS standard gear.
We do that as a rule anyway already. Kingpin is specified as having his cane, without the stip, we assume no cane, for example. [/B]
No we don't do that as a rule. Check the last few fights posted with the Punisher or Blade. This is not done with any regularity. Like I said, based on precedent, people implicitly assume standard is what they have most consistently. And yes, if you want to argue that based on the standard Blade has no equipment thats fine. I've agreed with that. We have to acknowledge that:
1. People haven't been operating with that standard in mind. People don't make Punisher and Blade threads with the belief they'll enter with nothing.
2. Thats not a good standard for characters with variable equipment.
My point in war of the realms is its suggested that Blade has been using BT for travel during war of realms off panel.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I get what you mean, but if you go that route you now gotta treat blade as an S-tier which is my sticking point here as he no longer tiers where he should on his own but high enough to be an issue to surfer without enough feats to actually defend him in a discussion. It essentially sidelined the whole character from most discussions where as base blade is actually a pretty strong in tier character for most comic based debates. And while boything may have been around at various points he doesnt necessarily get involved unless the threat demanded it. Like the khonshu arc when blade was helping Cap rescue Danny and strange and did so with his base abilities.To the bats example by saint, we put limitations on Tony Stark even though he can at any moment summon all his armors and they can function completely independent. Mostly cause you start pushing guys out of tier for the discussion if in a random encounter you let guys like Bruce or Tony remote summon gear, much of which still relies on a 3rd entity (like an advanced A.I. housed at stark enterprises or the watch tower/bat cave) that actually does the work. To me that kinda fits outside help since its beyond partitioned suit a.i. at that point.
I mean I get the reason why you would.. but to me it just sidelines the character and it's just not solidified in stories to such a degree yet that I'd go that route.
Which was my initial point that I made in the thread, is that Blade has more or less been sidelined based on this. People can clarify what equipment he has in future threads in order to keep him in-tier. But narratively Aaron had to do that to include Blade in Avengers stories. Stilt joked about it, but its the truth. Aaron is leaning into the narrative element of Blade where he always seems to have something for the job, and using that to equip him to be consistently ready for Avengers level threats. Its not about how I want him to be treated, its just about applying logical consistency. Like I said, if people want to describe his equipment from here on out thats fine.
Originally posted by Trackz
No we don't do that as a rule. Check the last few fights posted with the Punisher or Blade. This is not done with any regularity. Like I said, based on precedent, people implicitly assume standard is what they have most consistently. And yes, if you want to argue that based on the standard Blade has no equipment thats fine. I've agreed with that. We have to acknowledge that:1. People haven't been operating with that standard in mind. People don't make Punisher and Blade threads with the belief they'll enter with nothing.
2. Thats not a good standard for characters with variable equipment.
My point in war of the realms is its suggested that Blade has been using BT for travel during war of realms off panel.
Suggested(IYO), but not actually shown. Cool. So I hadn't missed issues then.
Originally posted by DarkSaint851. You've already admitted to missing issues in this thread.
Suggested, but not actually shown. Cool. So I hadn't missed issues then.
2. You had initially stated BT did not appear in the War of the Realms arc
3. Now we're implying anything done off panel suddenly doesn't matter in a story? If the question is "where has boy-thing been during war of the realms" that exchange explains.
Originally posted by Trackz
Which was my initial point that I made in the thread, is that Blade has more or less been sidelined based on this. People can clarify what equipment he has in future threads in order to keep him in-tier. But narratively Aaron had to do that to include Blade in Avengers stories. Stilt joked about it, but its the truth. Aaron is leaning into the narrative element of Blade where he always seems to have something for the job, and using that to equip him to be consistently ready for Avengers level threats. Its not about how I want him to be treated, its just about applying logical consistency. Like I said, if people want to describe his equipment from here on out thats fine.
in many of the instances in which the two are together, boything STILL generally acts independently to blade. You could push the pet angle to an extent but I dunno bout even going that route given it's a sentient creature beyond a devil dinosaur or something of that nature. For me.. they come off as traveling companions, or even blade as protector but it still acts far more like it's own entity then a klyntar does to call it a symbiotic relationship of that nature even if it has benefits when they act in tandem (which characters like blue marvel and spectrum have entire runs together and similar fusion benefits but you wouldnt call one or the other gear, or a pet).
Its.. murky. You can make a case for.. make one against and it doesnt quite fit solidly cause it's just similar enough but unique in it's own right to still be just different enough.
