Originally posted by Senor Cage
I don't think Phoenix has any universal battle feats.
Feats dont have to be battle feats. They just have to be a transferrable demonstration of power. If you can wipe out universes, then you dont have to demonstrate you can fight hand to hand in order to say you can defeat Iron Man 🙄
I must say Abbie, you are strikingly similar to Mr Master. Debating style and intelligence level all within similar bounds. Your posts are less scan heavy, but that could be laziness in your old age. I would not be surprised if sometime down the line you were found out to be one and the same person. 😖hifty:
Originally posted by GalacticStormlol, you'll give a whole sermon on your Phoenix/ Marvel cosmological headcanon but after pages and pages you still can't name a single Dark Phoenix feat.
You can assert to hell and back, but without any Marvel publication explicitly validating your tomfoolery, it means not a damn thing. 😬[goes on to assert a bunch of random bullshit that doesn't mean a damn thing]
In sum: you insist that Dark Phoenix Jean has the power to erase realities in the blink of an eye but you cannot provide evidence of Dark Phoenix Jean doing... anything. So, this is just basic trolling.
I'll give a further reply about Phoenix colours and power levels later. Maybe we can get somewhere more substantive? I won't hold my breath tho.
Originally posted by Smurph
lol, you'll give a whole sermon on your Phoenix/ Marvel cosmological headcanon but after pages and pages you still can't name a single Dark Phoenix feat.In sum: you insist that Dark Phoenix Jean has the power to erase realities in the blink of an eye but you cannot provide evidence of Dark Phoenix Jean doing... anything. So, this is just basic trolling.
I'll give a further reply about Phoenix colours and power levels later. Maybe we can get somewhere more substantive? I won't hold my breath tho.
What evidenced argument of note have you put forward in order for you to have the audacity to be talking about substance? 😱
What ive presented is evidence explicitly stating that the various Phoenix colours are just different faces of the exact same being, with the colours merely a reflection of the temperament predominant in the host at any given time. Unless its stated that theres a difference in power or ability then asserting that there is based on nothing but the circumstantial is what would be head canon. No matter how much you might believe otherwise 😬
Back up your assertions with explicit evidence or accept them as inconsequential, suppositious and otherwise not worth my damn time 🙂
Originally posted by Thinkerer
Dark Phoenix was capable of destroying Solar Systems without too much effort, but destroying realities? Thats pure speculation. I suppose the Phoenix itself can, but I'm not sure Jean's dark, angry and confused state made it possible to utilize her powers to the max.
It depends on what you mean by Dark Phoenix.
If you mean the character as represented in Uncanny X-men issues 135 to 138 and only that showing then id agree.
But Dark Phoenix is just the name for a host who has embraced its dark urges.
If the thread maker had set the parameters ive just mentioned my vote would be for Unkindness. But if we're talking Jean Phoenix embracing her dark side then given what we now know a Jean Phoenix is capable of, then undoubtedly Dark Phoenix.
Originally posted by Thinkerer
Dark Phoenix was capable of destroying Solar Systems without too much effort, but destroying realities? Thats pure speculation. I suppose the Phoenix itself can, but I'm not sure Jean's dark, angry and confused state made it possible to utilize her powers to the max.
I dont think she can.
Originally posted by GalacticStormK, first of all, it's Kabbalah. Two Bs, one L. If you're gonna launch into more arbitrary lectures on belief systems, learn the spelling maybe?
The Phoenix Force is after all a Kabballah based entity of duality.In Kaballah the Supreme Being brings about creation by manifesting emanation points of its power into what would go on to be reality below. These emanation points are called sefirot.
In the above scans you can see Ewing incorporated this Kabballah cosmology by equating parts of the Kabballah system with places of cosmic importance in Marvel.
Here is the Kaballah Tree of Life where you can see all of the sefirot mapped out:
Helps with credibility.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
One of Jeans greatest feats, arguably even her greatest was containing the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal, a power Pre-retcon Beyonder deemed sufficient to reduce him to his formless state. The power that wiped out the 6th multiverse. Lets remind ourselves which colour Phoenix achieved this:Green Phoenix. 🙄
Why the eye roll?
It's almost as if you're saying that Green Phoenix is presumptively less powerful than the other colours. mmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm [B]NEVER, has it been stated that there is a power difference between the Phoenix colours. What has been stated is that there is a difference in temperament and propensity. [/b]And yet: "telekinetic control of all those atoms isn't as easy as it sounds in training. Not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." mmm
Or alternatively when Jean was first resurrected in the white uniform and mused on the significance of what that change meant.
Or alternatively in the X-Men 100th Anniversary Special when Scott asks if he's talking to Dark Phoenix and that version of Phoenix says "No Scott, just Phoenix. Dark Phoenix is born of human desire. And I am the embodiment of eternity."
Notably that Phoenix takes the form of... White Phoenix. Because White Phoenix consistently represents the host at the greatest point of symbiosis with the true Phoenix Force itself.
Or there's every panel and story explaining that White Phoenix is Jean, transcended.
But all of that is just circumstantial. The actual, critical point is that White Phoenix has accomplished things that dwarf any feats of Dark Phoenix, for all of its destructive intent. We know that Dark Phoenix is an inherent part of the overall Phoenix, sure, but we don't know that the Dark Phoenix personality automatically gives Jean access to the same level of power that she enjoys while in the considerably more sane and ~one with the cosmos~ guise of White Phoenix.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm and to the left you have Geburah sometimes spelt as Gevurah. The sefirot of judgement and fire represented by the colour red. Thus reflected in the comic as Dark Phoenix known for its severity and judgement by fire:The funniest part about this irrelevant windbag post is that you spend paragraphs talking around this one panel that says "mirror images", as if that means anything at all, when you were just gleefully lecturing Abhi on the meaning of purple prose.Whether its life and death, light and darkness, mercy and judgement or creation and destruction, the Phoenixes very nature is duality. But as stated on panel these are all just mirror images of the same being.
What. a. clown.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1) You defined the multiverse as having 1000 universes. You then asserted a reference to infinite possibilities was a reference to infinite universes. Youre now stating that a reference to Deathlok saying he saw a million firmaments means there are a million universes 😕 Youre all over the bloody place 😆
Its like you can't even comprehend this stuff. I said Deathlok crossed thousand universes, that doesn't mean there are only thousand universes, dum dum.
°Lets look at what the definition of firmament is:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/firmament
Its the sky mate LOL.
In marvel, the very first universe is called First Firmament, dum dum.
So your evidence is inconclusive. Your Deathloks millions of firmaments could have been a reference to seeing the skies from millions of planets. INCONCLUSIVE. The definition of the word does not serve you. Back to the drawing board Abbie.
They were traveling across Earths to warn Avengers, why would they go to other planets to see their skies, dum dum?
Meanwhile:
The evidence clearly defines the number of universes as 616. Your attempt to dismiss this by saying oh but there is an earth mentioned called 818 so there cant just be 616 universes is weak. There being 616 universes does not mean that each one of them are numbered 1 to 616. However as explicitly conveyed, the assault was on every Earth in the multiverse and upon reaching the final Earth it was called the 616th one to fall. Thats conclusive.
LMAO, no it doesn't, dum dum.
2) Quote the specific sentence in this scene that states EXPLICITLY that the method employed to restore reality would be the same as what Starbrand and Phoenix did in Heroes return. NOT your interpretation. Quote the sentence that explicitly states your point or admit youre just making an interpretation:
Hahaha, you've been reduced to a level of troll now. Quite a turn I'd say.
3) By failing to address my points regarding Tonys reference to Phoenixes big effort to spare the heroes and why reality subsequently became safe for the heroes after Phoenix and Starbrands intervention, you have conceded that Starbrand and Phoenix clearly circumvented realities natural process of correcting itself following a historical event alteration and managed to alter reality so the multiversal Avengers were now safely integrated within it without fear of erasure. Good stuff 😄
Quite the quanchi impression there, dum dum. I take it, you have nothing else?
I accept your concession too.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I must say Abbie, you are strikingly similar to Mr Master. Debating style and intelligence level all within similar bounds. Your posts are less scan heavy, but that could be laziness in your old age. I would not be surprised if sometime down the line you were found out to be one and the same person. 😖hifty:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You can assert to hell and back, but without any Marvel publication explicitly validating your tomfoolery, it means not a damn thing. 😬One of Jeans greatest feats, arguably even her greatest was containing the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal, a power Pre-retcon Beyonder deemed sufficient to reduce him to his formless state. The power that wiped out the 6th multiverse. Lets remind ourselves which colour Phoenix achieved this:
Green Phoenix. 🙄
[B]NEVER
, has it been stated that there is a power difference between the Phoenix colours. What has been stated is that there is a difference in temperament and propensity. The Phoenix Force is after all a Kabballah based entity of duality.It is an expression of Tiphereth:
In Kaballah the Supreme Being brings about creation by manifesting emanation points of its power into what would go on to be reality below. These emanation points are called sefirot.
In the above scans you can see Ewing incorporated this Kabballah cosmology by equating parts of the Kabballah system with places of cosmic importance in Marvel. TOAA's will to create resides at the House of Ideas (Keter) this crosses the Abyss/Land of Couldnt be Shouldnt Be (Daat) to the conversion point Tiphereth/White Hot Room where the will to create becomes the force to create which Ewing has highlighted is the True Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force descends down the multiversal structure to Malkuth where as the Big Bang it forms the multiverse.
Here is the Kaballah Tree of Life where you can see all of the sefirot mapped out:
The right column is the pillar of mercy, the central the pillar of balance, the left the pillar of severity. As you can see, Tiphereth is the heart of the sefirot under the pillar of balance and represented by the Phoenix Forces orange. It is also the nexus point where the sefirot conjoin, which is why it represents balance and integration, it is composed of the varying characteristics of the sefirot. Hence the Phoenix Force and subsequently its hosts wearing multiple faces.
To the right notice the green sefirot of Netzach. Which is a sefirot of endurance and victory in the face of all odds. (Green Phoenix overcoming adversity and saving all of creation) and ultimately always being victorious:
and to the left you have Geburah sometimes spelt as Gevurah. The sefirot of judgement and fire represented by the colour red. Thus reflected in the comic as Dark Phoenix known for its severity and judgement by fire:
Whether its life and death, light and darkness, mercy and judgement or creation and destruction, the Phoenixes very nature is duality. But as stated on panel these are all just mirror images of the same being.
In the space of a few pages Jean went from green, to red, to white states in Endsong, with the comic demonstrating what colour a Phoenix materializes is simply a matter of mindset and headspace:
There has never been a canon statement attributing unique abilities to the Phoenix colours. What has been explicitly stated is that they are all just reflections of the same being.
Unless you have any explicit evidence to the contrary, you and your assertions can hold these nuts 😱 [/B]
Finally you've grown a pair and played your hand after days of bitchy, feminine passive aggression.
As expected, you remain a disappointment.
Lets begin 🙂
Originally posted by Smurph
K, first of all, it's Kabbalah. Two Bs, one L. If you're gonna launch into more arbitrary lectures on belief systems, learn the spelling maybe?Helps with credibility.
There are many ways to spell it, from Kabalah, to Kaballah, to Kabballah to Qabalah to Cabala and many more:
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=kabbalah
If you are going to attempt to critique and talk on matters of credibility, get your shit together and do your research. Dont take the 1st spelling you see off page 1 of a Google search and then act as if youre an authority.
Originally posted by Smurph
Why the eye roll?It's almost as if you're saying that Green Phoenix is presumptively less powerful than the other colours. mmm
The eye roll would be because you asserted that the top feats performed by a Phoenix host were only ever done in White Phoenix form. I highlighted that actually a hosts greatest feat was arguably containing the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal. The fact that you were unable to follow the flow of the argument perhaps highlights the limits of your mental faculties. You just might be out of your depth Smurph. 😬
Originally posted by Smurph
And yet: "telekinetic control of all those atoms isn't as easy as it sounds in training. Not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown." mmmOr alternatively when Jean was first resurrected in the white uniform and mused on the significance of what that change meant
Or alternatively in the X-Men 100th Anniversary Special when Scott asks if he's talking to Dark Phoenix and that version of Phoenix says "No Scott, just [b]Phoenix.
Dark Phoenix is born of human desire. And I am the embodiment of eternity."[/B]
What a White Phoenix is has NEVER been defined, so your supposition and conjecture can not be pushed as the truth. You can simply make a case for your interpretation and explain why you believe it to be the case and whether people accept it or not, you deal with that outcome. Drop the arrogance.
What a White Phoenix signifies whilst not defined, it has been inferred and yet these inferences have changed over the years.
On its debut in Classic X-men, Jean became White Phoenix by simply having passed on from her human existence to the White Hot Room. Whilst the significance of the white costume was never given, the symbolic colour of the Crown in Kabballah is white. So the inference was she had passed on to the Phoenixes version of the afterlife and so was wearing white, in a similar way to traditional Christian portrayals of residents of heaven being adorned in white:
There was no portrayal or indication of being in a more advanced or powerful state.
The next appearance of the White Phoenix was in New X-men 154.
Here what's inferred is that the White Phoenix is a state thats achieved when human emotions and desires are overcome and a Phoenix is crystal clear on who they are and what their mission/Phoenix work is:
After being psychically reset, remembering who she is and her purpose, Jean completes her Phoenix work and ascends to "the afterlife" as White Phoenix
So its presented as a state achieved when a host reins in their human desires and is at one with their Phoenix remit.
The scene also states that the problem previously was that her "heart got stuck" i.e she allowed herself to get distracted by her humanity, her role as an X-man, her marital problems. We saw this earlier in the comic where the Phoenix speaking through Jean stated she was there to disinfect the planet. Prof X reminded her of this following her "possession" but she dismissed his words:
She was too caught up in humanity. "Heart got stuck" but it wasnt until she was ready to give up her human life and prioritise the mission, that she became White Phoenix.
Similarly, we saw this with Endsong when the telepathic affirming message of love from the X-men helped remind Jean of who and what she is, she reverted from Dark Phoenix, to White Phoenix and ascended:
As this last scene further indicates, the White Phoenix state is achieved when clarity of mission and a willingness to prioritize it over ones humanity is achieved:
That ties into the X-men 100th anniversary issue you refer to:
Here Jean reiterates that White Phoenix is the abandonment of desire in favour of full acceptance and commitment to her mission as a Phoenix.
We then have Avengers vs X-men, where a complete novice Hope, becomes White Phoenix her very 1st time as a host.
Why? Because she was able to channel the Iron Fist, which allowed her to rein in her human desires.
Fongji Wu, in preparation for the Phoenix that was destined to possess her became the Iron Fist and with this power and discipline was able to rein in her emotions and desires and control the Phoenix Forces corruptive elements thus becoming a White Phoenix/Iron Fist hybrid:
Hope was training all her life to be able to mentally rein in the corruptive influence of the Phoenix, receiving further training in K'un Lun and was channelling the Iron Fist to combat the Phoenix:
This eventually resulted in her as aforementioned becoming a White Phoenix as well, despite being a complete novice with such power. All as a result of her highly emphasized training to overcome and rein in her emotions.
Originally posted by Smurph
Notably that Phoenix takes the form of... White Phoenix. Because White Phoenix consistently represents the host at the greatest point of symbiosis with the true Phoenix Force itself.
Theres more evidence to show it represents a state where a host is able to overcome and rein in their human desires. There remains zero conclusive evidence that the different colour Phoenixes give different powers and abilities. Instead the colours denote the mindset of the host.
Originally posted by Smurph
Or there's every panel and story explaining that White Phoenix is Jean, transcended.
There are panels that demonstrate that White Phoenix is a state any host can achieve if they can free themselves from the chains of human desire. 🙂
Originally posted by Smurph
But all of that is just circumstantial. The actual, [b]critical point is that White Phoenix has accomplished things that dwarf any feats of Dark Phoenix, for all of its destructive intent. We know that Dark Phoenix is an inherent part of the overall Phoenix, sure, but we don't know that the Dark Phoenix personality automatically gives Jean access to the same level of power that she enjoys while in the considerably more sane and ~one with the cosmos~ guise of White Phoenix. [/B]
The crux of the matter is you have zero beyond the circumstantial to evidence your assertions. The greatest feat achieved by a Phoenix host is containing the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal and that was green Phoenix. Nowhere on panel does it state that there are different abilities per Phoenix colour. What is demonstrated by the comics is that a hosts control of their emotions is what dictates the Phoenix colour they manifest. You can be utterly convinced that your interpretation is correct, but unless it is stated or presented in any conclusive manner you are in no position to present it as a fact. Fall back ✅
Originally posted by Smurph
The funniest part about this irrelevant windbag post is that you spend paragraphs talking around this one panel that says "mirror images", as if that means anything at all, when you were just gleefully lecturing Abhi on the meaning of purple prose.
The panel in question is just further evidence in support of the point that there are no significant differences between the Phoenix states beyond emotional state. They are different faces of the very same being. As such, unless you can provide a single panel that states explicitly (not just your interpretation) that the different colours result in different abilities then your case is inconsequential.
Multiple hosts have been shown to become the white Phoenix when they can rein in their human desires. That is the common theme that connects all White Phoenix appearances.
Originally posted by Smurph
What. a. clown.
This clown just ATE you up you bottom rung biatch. You will deal 😆
Originally posted by abhilegend
Its like you can't even comprehend this stuff. I said Deathlok crossed thousand universes, that doesn't mean there are only thousand universes, dum dum. °In marvel, the very first universe is called First Firmament, dum dum.
They were traveling across Earths to warn Avengers, why would they go to other planets to see their skies, dum dum?
LMAO, no it doesn't, dum dum.
Hahaha, you've been reduced to a level of troll now. Quite a turn I'd say.
Quite the quanchi impression there, dum dum. I take it, you have nothing else?
I accept your concession too.
Me a troll?
You consistently scarper from addressing points because you know full well that you have zero counter to them. So instead of taking your L you drop in some smack talk and a few emojis. 🙂
I repeat:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm4) The comic makes it clear that killing the Earths ancient Avengers results in reality altering and erasing components of the future that wouldve been, restructuring itself in favour of a future based on one where there are no Avengers around, making reality a death trap for any elements of the original incarnation of reality. They'd be erased within reality:
What was the whole lotta trouble Tony stated Phoenix and Starbrand went through to spare the heroes after they reset reality? Just leaving them in the Quarry? 😬
5) Their very 1st mission was a reconnaissance back in reality. Why did it only become safe for them to re-enter reality without fear of erasure after the "whole lotta trouble" Phoenix and Starbrand went through to spare them? 😕
Address these points. Your Doom scan supports me. Replying and saying "Oh i addressed this already with my Doom scan" does not counter the points.
Answer the questions or accept your L with grace. 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStormThere's something so funny about a nerd lashing out without any self awareness. As if there's anything masculine about debating whether Jean Grey's mood and costume colours correspond to her power levels. What a strange and telling insult, lol.
Finally you've grown a pair and played your hand after days of bitchy, feminine passive aggression.
I'll get back to you later. Hope the Kabbalah research is going well. 👆
Originally posted by Smurph
There's something so funny about a nerd lashing out without any self awareness. As if there's anything masculine about debating whether Jean Grey's mood and costume colours correspond to her power levels. What a strange and telling insult, lol.I'll get back to you later. Hope the Kabbalah research is going well. 👆
Comics are a gender inclusive medium to debate about. But the energy you bring to the table whilst doing so is a whole other matter entirely.
You've been giving nothing but bitchy sidekick.
Run along and do what research you need to do. I'll be waiting 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Me a troll?
Yes.
You consistently scarper from addressing points because you know full well that you have zero counter to them. So instead of taking your L you drop in some smack talk and a few emojis. 🙂
I repeat:
Already addressed each point and beat your ass on each one. The fact that you want word by word proof is simply hilarious.
Address these points. Your Doom scan supports me. Replying and saying "Oh i addressed this already with my Doom scan" does not counter the points.
😂
Addressed each and every one already, troll.
Answer the questions or accept your L with grace. 🙂
How many times do I gotta humiliate you, troll?
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes.Already addressed each point and beat your ass on each one. The fact that you want word by word proof is simply hilarious.
😂
Addressed each and every one already, troll.
How many times do I gotta humiliate you, troll?
Absolute joke 😆
You do realise people can read and see your outright lies right? 😱
Theres a difference between countering a point and just replying.
I'll post the outstanding points again:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm4) The comic makes it clear that killing the Earths ancient Avengers results in reality altering and erasing components of the future that wouldve been, restructuring itself in favour of a future based on one where there are no Avengers around, making reality a death trap for any elements of the original incarnation of reality. They'd be erased within reality:
What was the whole lotta trouble Tony stated Phoenix and Starbrand went through to spare the heroes after they reset reality? Just leaving them in the Quarry? 😬
5) Their very 1st mission was a reconnaissance back in reality. Why did it only become safe for them to re-enter reality without fear of erasure after the "whole lotta trouble" Phoenix and Starbrand went through to spare them? 😕
If youve addressed the points ive quoted then quote yourself and highlight your evidenced counter. Where did you provide comic book evidence to address the points ive quoted? That Doom scan is included in my quote as it actually ended up supporting me LOL. QUOTE YOURSELF 🙂
This should be interesting 😖hifty: