Originally posted by leonidas
oh, i agree, but that's not how omniscience usually works in comics. and dk, for all his power, was clearly NOT omniscient. there were still powers on his level and above him. he was just....another really powerful comic villain, that's it. there will be another to come along and be more powerful. he may have had ltd omniscience, but maybe we're intended to infer prime can't be viewed with that ability? i dunno man. like i said, he's illogical. the fight can 100% be viewed as PIS. i've never liked calling PIS though. there's no logical reason he should have been able to do what he did, clearly unless (a) dk wasn't as powerful as he purported to be (b) it's pure PIS (c) it's prime doing more illogical sh!t and because the writers want him to. his biggest power seems to be he's a walking plot device. /shrug
We're on the same wavelength on the main, a and b are basically what ive been saying throughout this thread. Either DKs power level is the issue or its PIS.
As for C. Superboy Prime is 100% used as a plot device. However said plot device tool is primarily his retcon punch which has limited offensive use as touched on the past couple pages. Beyond that hes presented as a Superman+ (i.e a stronger than normal Kryptnian) So option b) would still apply
Originally posted by leonidas
oh, i agree, but that's not how omniscience usually works in comics. and dk, for all his power, was clearly NOT omniscient. there were still powers on his level and above him. he was just....another really powerful comic villain, that's it. there will be another to come along and be more powerful. he may have had ltd omniscience, but maybe we're intended to infer prime can't be viewed with that ability? i dunno man. like i said, he's illogical. the fight can 100% be viewed as PIS. i've never liked calling PIS though. there's no logical reason he should have been able to do what he did, clearly unless (a) dk wasn't as powerful as he purported to be (b) it's pure PIS (c) it's prime doing more illogical sh!t and because the writers want him to. his biggest power seems to be he's a walking plot device. /shrug
toaa and regulator thanos were not omniscient
thanos for all his powers failed to locate the location of eros and the troll
Originally posted by carver9
Correction, meant to say omnipotent. Using ONE scene against a character to downplay his power level is ridiculous.
Originally posted by MrMind
toaa and regulator thanos were not omniscientthanos for all his powers failed to locate the location of eros and the troll
No comic book character will display total omniscience within a story even if theyre said by canon to possess a degree of omniscience as then the story would be very dull. No one would truly be a threat removing all drama and engagement from the plot.
Dr Manhattan however has displayed an impressive level of omniscience as ive touched on page 8 of this thread:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
KMC’s “NO PIS” rule:“The "No PIS" Rule
PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity
At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.”
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=461496
Other explanations of PIS:
“Plot-Induced Stupidity, or PIS for short, is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot. For example, if a generally competent, intelligent villain does something stupid like not killing the hero immediately when he has the chance, and that allows the hero to win, that would be an example of PIS (If the villain was just incompetent in general, it would be CIS/Character-Induced Stupidity instead).”
The Dr Manhattan power set includes a degree of omniscience. Dr M doesn’t experience time linearly and can see past, present and future simultaneously:
https://imgur.com/tW2f8t8He would know of the SBP battle and every action SBP would take in said battle and react accordingly.
[B]This power was forgotten by the storyDr Manhattan can casually alter the timestream meaning that any characters who aren’t ascendant (in an Abstract/Phoenix/Cosmic being manner) are all easily and helplessly vulnerable to this power. Witness him casually make alterations to DC history out of curiosity over the outcome:
His curiosity satisfied he decides on his preferred outcome and makes the change and restarts the timeline again, affecting countless lives without their consent or ability to do a thing:
https://imgur.com/H1nSHUa
https://imgur.com/H1U0s86
https://imgur.com/9U4EROP
https://imgur.com/cYdRm8f
https://imgur.com/KhqJy4nDr Manhattan could alter history so that Superboy Prime never existed. Or simly change events so Earth 1 Superman never made contact with him and helped him discover he had powers. Or he could simply do a localized time manipulation and age or de-age Superboy Prime.
This power was forgotten by the storyDr Manhattan is a high level energy and matter manipulator and can analyse attacks and understand his opponent’s powers down to their component level better than his opponents can and nullify them:
https://imgur.com/kOWlFWtHe can be blown apart and reconstitute as he possesses complete control over his own atomic structure meaning he can regenerate and is virtually indestructible
He can be blown apart and reconstitute as he possesses complete control over energy and matter including his own.
So Darkest Knight could’ve made himself ephemeral so Superboy Prime was completely unable to make contact with him due to his limited brutish powerset and could’ve surrounded SBP in red suns to leave him entirely powerless.
As shown the DK powerset also allows for the manipulation of magic.
Heres how an armoured up SBP fared against magic in his very recent encounter with Shazam and Black Adam:
https://imgur.com/Vaf3X0S
SHAZAMThese powers were forgotten in the story
DK manipulated manipulated matter and energy to create 52 planets and he engaged Perpetua using those same abilities:
https://imgur.com/tW80S59
https://imgur.com/qy8Yar1His battle against Superboy Prime was a slugfest.
Guess what that means? 😖hifty:
In that moment…………….His powers were forgotten by the story 😱 [/B]
Sufficient omniscience that if Darkest Knight truly possessed the full Dr M power-set then he should have been able to foresee Superboy Primes attacks and take action ahead of time removing him as a threat before he became a threat.
Originally posted by GalacticStormRemember Dr M saw Auperman as the Universes greatest antibody.
No comic book character will display total omniscience within a story even if theyre said by canon to possess a degree of omniscience as then the story would be very dull. No one would truly be a threat removing all drama and engagement from the plot.Dr Manhattan however has displayed an impressive level of omniscience as ive touched on page 8 of this thread:
Sufficient omniscience that if Darkest Knight truly possessed the full Dr M power-set then he should have been able to foresee Superboy Primes attacks and take action ahead of time removing him as a threat before he became a threat.
Originally posted by Diesldude
Smh so you changed your first misinterpretation with another. LoLHe says it right there “it is real”. You’re saying he’s lying to himself because he wants to believe it’s real? Lol where does it say he’s trying to convince himself? Or he wants to believe it’s real? Dude that’s a reach if I saw one.
Why "smh"?
You failed as a debator to provide conclusive evidence to substantiate your assertions. Qwerty had to step in and do your job for you and even then the only part that changed was that SBP was changing reality (albeit it in a random uncontrolled manner) by hitting Darkest Knights creations and Dk himself)
Nothing else has. The battle was still PIS and Superboy Prime is still either dead and his souls in the afterlife, or hes comatose and dreaming hes in Earth Prime.
Either way the fact that he got taken off the playing field by a impact blast shows how improbable it would be that he could have claimed all of Darkest Knights power as per SBP's pondering.
Their battle didnt leave Darkest Knight on the brink of death having unleashed all of his power to stop SBP. (If it had then yeah its still feasible SBP might have been able to lay claim to DKs power) Instead Darkest Knight walked away and had an epic battle with Wonder Woman during which he still believed he had the power to kill the Hands:
Straight after leaving SBP in the dust:
Still looking energized and highly confident that without having to divert energy to fight Diana he could destroy the Hands:
So SBP clearly was conclusively not on Darkest Knights level.
Their battle was Plot Induced Stupidity so that he could have his redemptive moment.
As Leo agrees, if it wasnt PIS then during their battle one could argue that DK was hampered in some way. This 2nd point isnt conclusive so dont go crying. Its just exploring an alternative option to PIS.
Consider how Darkest Knights battle with Perpetua went. He won, but he never dominated her throughout. It was evenly matched until the later stages. However as Death Metal 7 touches on, his ultimate plan was to take out all of The Hands. Multiple beings on Perpetuas level. That would require a mammoth amount of power.
One could argue that Darkest Knight was so dead set on bringing his evil realities into permanency and killing the hands that he didnt want to divert any energy away from those tasks so he freed up limited power to deal with SBP and even tried to manipulate him and talk him out of fighting him by playing to his ego and saying theyre alike, tempting him by offering to create him a world with his loved ones:
"I want darkness in everything. And you? What do you want anymore Superboy? I can give it to you. Just stand aside. I prefer not to expend the energy to kill you"
There is a running theme of Darkest Knight prioritizing saving his energy for his schemes as opposed to engaging in fights.
Again i repost the convo with Diana:
"You keep fighting me pointlessly and the hands will be stronger than us both....or you surrender and i will kill the Hands"
Ultimately Superboy Prime took the choice out of Darkest Knights hand by striking him so hard that the power was unleashed...enough to kill/incapacitate Superboy Prime. But SBP forcing that power expenditure meant that the evil 52 planets were lost.
Originally posted by GalacticStormhow does anyone manipulate prime on earth prime?
He did. Remember Dr Manhattan also effortlessly manipulated Supermans life without Superman having a say in the matter.Role and significance doesnt equate to power.
He showed up in DC as this Uber powerful character that only got more powerful.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No comic book character will display total omniscience within a story even if theyre said by canon to possess a degree of omniscience as then the story would be very dull. No one would truly be a threat removing all drama and engagement from the plot.Dr Manhattan however has displayed an impressive level of omniscience as ive touched on page 8 of this thread:
Sufficient omniscience that if Darkest Knight truly possessed the full Dr M power-set then he should have been able to foresee Superboy Primes attacks and take action ahead of time removing him as a threat before he became a threat.
Exactly. But a no limits fallacy is in effect. It allows people to forget several events that happened to Superboy Prime in earlier stories. There were those that were far less powerful than Doctor M that pushed Superboy Prime on a physical level. If he was this unbeatable character how then was he sent into the Speedforce? There was a period in time that he didn't exist as well, but yeah we need to acknowledge the punches.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No comic book character will display total omniscience within a story even if theyre said by canon to possess a degree of omniscience as then the story would be very dull. No one would truly be a threat removing all drama and engagement from the plot.Dr Manhattan however has displayed an impressive level of omniscience as ive touched on page 8 of this thread:
Sufficient omniscience that if Darkest Knight truly possessed the full Dr M power-set then he should have been able to foresee Superboy Primes attacks and take action ahead of time removing him as a threat before he became a threat.
DK was achieving some range of omniscience/omnipotence
the dark multiverse was all apart of him after he took over dark multiverse manhattan's power
his intention was set to create a multiverse that destroy all multiverses in the omniverse
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why "smh"?You failed as a debator to provide conclusive evidence to substantiate your assertions. Qwerty had to step in and do your job for you and even then the only part that changed was that SBP was changing reality (albeit it in a random uncontrolled manner) by hitting Darkest Knights creations and Dk himself)
Nothing else has. The battle was still PIS and Superboy Prime is still either dead and his souls in the afterlife, or hes comatose and dreaming hes in Earth Prime.
Either way the fact that he got taken off the playing field by a impact blast shows how improbable it would be that he could have claimed all of Darkest Knights power as per SBP's pondering.
Their battle didnt leave Darkest Knight on the brink of death having unleashed all of his power to stop SBP. (If it had then yeah its still feasible SBP might have been able to lay claim to DKs power) Instead Darkest Knight walked away and had an epic battle with Wonder Woman during which he still believed he had the power to kill the Hands:
Straight after leaving SBP in the dust:
Still looking energized and highly confident that without having to divert energy to fight Diana he could destroy the Hands:
So SBP clearly was conclusively not on Darkest Knights level.
Their battle was Plot Induced Stupidity so that he could have his redemptive moment.
As Leo agrees, if it wasnt PIS then during their battle one could argue that DK was hampered in some way. This 2nd point isnt conclusive so dont go crying. Its just exploring an alternative option to PIS.
Consider how Darkest Knights battle with Perpetua went. He won, but he never dominated her throughout. It was evenly matched until the later stages. However as Death Metal 7 touches on, his ultimate plan was to take out all of The Hands. Multiple beings on Perpetuas level. That would require a mammoth amount of power.
One could argue that Darkest Knight was so dead set on bringing his evil realities into permanency and killing the hands that he didnt want to divert any energy away from those tasks so he freed up limited power to deal with SBP and even tried to manipulate him and talk him out of fighting him by playing to his ego and saying theyre alike, tempting him by offering to create him a world with his loved ones:
"I want darkness in everything. And you? What do you want anymore Superboy? I can give it to you. Just stand aside. I prefer not to expend the energy to kill you"
There is a running theme of Darkest Knight prioritizing saving his energy for his schemes as opposed to engaging in fights.
Again i repost the convo with Diana:
"You keep fighting me pointlessly and the hands will be stronger than us both....or you surrender and i will kill the Hands"
Ultimately Superboy Prime took the choice out of Darkest Knights hand by striking him so hard that the power was unleashed...enough to kill/incapacitate Superboy Prime. But SBP forcing that power expenditure meant that the evil 52 planets were lost.
I showed you a panel in the comic where prime himself might as well be directly telling you that are wrong and you still won’t accept it. Arguing with you is like arguing with a girl on her period. If DK came out here and say he tried everything, you still won’t believe him. You’re not a debater, you just show up on “that time of the month” and argue just for the sake of arguing. 👆