Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Geez, Can we just view it as a high showing for probes and the tanks example just a low showing for probesAnd per forum rules( Full Capacity, The "No PIS" Rule etc) , We'll ignore low showings.
This will make things much easier
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Like what
Like unless they meant something else, the tanks being Luthor's armaments, as the book says. I mean, could be the White House security system upgraded, but nuclear tanks? Sure not the hover tanks I thought, but that's a pretty decent upgrade. I also never got a quote for what exactly you're disputing with Abhi on the tanks.
You keep bringing up what Professor Hamilton said about the Entropy Aegis to argue against it tanking the Omega Effect as the Imperiex Probe on it's own but Apokolipsian technology (whether you're arguing it was the tech itself or in addition). But why wouldn't Darkseid bring that up? He said the drone's shell. Sounds like the Probe itself is just that durable. So either what Hamilton is observing is the tech later(perhaps wasn't on) or just the property of the Probe itself. In the next page of the scan you posted, Steel talks about getting a crash course in entropic power control, says he doesn't even begin to understand the "hunk of alien metal" and Superman says "it's a little bit of Imperiex himself."
And Mr. Terrific said similar about Imperiex makes the Probes from himself.
I mean, I think the shell is just that durable, but could be the Entropy thing. Regardless, Darkseid didn't attribute it tanking the OE to Apokolipsian technology.
As for the argument Qwerty made about the Entropy Aegis did what Probes couldn't, maybe not.
In YOUNG JUSTICE: OWAW we see Probes on the Russian steepes in 2500 AD.
But later during their time bouncing around the time stream, we see them in 2020 when Earth gets turned into energy anr what's left becomes a black hole.
And when at a point, "--so remote that time and dates as we understand them no longer apply"
--a Probe tracks their "temporal wake."
So for all we know Steel breaking through time and space was just something the Probes can do on their own, but it just wasn't fully explored. Could they already have been there? Perhaps, but tracking temporal stuff sounds like something someone(or in this case something) time traveling would have. And we see them at other points, even after on Earth centuries after they destroyed it.
I mean DarkSaint, Hell, I can even give evidence against your argument about the Entropy Aegis is smaller to fit Steel. We saw them change size to Brainiac-13 size.
I mean unless it's Imperiex Prime teleporting in or something. But if not, for all we know the Entropy Aegis is actually the natural size of the Probes but we normally see them bigger. No worse an argument than ignoring what Darkseid said about the shell took the Omega Effect.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Again, you're using something which isn't essential for a probe to do to establish something entirely different altogether.The Aegis was a piece of Imperiex, it used entropic power like the probes did. You still have to prove the Apokolips tech made it more powerful or different.
The size and look doesn't make it different?
The fact it absorbs and nullifies all energy directed at it (even when no one is in it), something that no probe did, doesn't make it different?
Originally posted by Delta1938
Like unless they meant something else, the tanks being Luthor's armaments, as the book says. I mean, could be the White House security system upgraded, but nuclear tanks? Sure not the hover tanks I thought, but that's a pretty decent upgrade. I also never got a quote for what exactly you're disputing with Abhi on the tanks.You keep bringing up what Professor Hamilton said about the Entropy Aegis to argue against it tanking the Omega Effect as the Imperiex Probe on it's own but Apokolipsian technology (whether you're arguing it was the tech itself or in addition). But why wouldn't Darkseid bring that up? He said the drone's shell. Sounds like the Probe itself is just that durable. So either what Hamilton is observing is the tech later(perhaps wasn't on) or just the property of the Probe itself. In the next page of the scan you posted, Steel talks about getting a crash course in entropic power control, says he doesn't even begin to understand the "hunk of alien metal" and Superman says "it's a little bit of Imperiex himself."
And Mr. Terrific said similar about Imperiex makes the Probes from himself.
I mean, I think the shell is just that durable, but could be the Entropy thing. Regardless, Darkseid didn't attribute it tanking the OE to Apokolipsian technology.
As for the argument Qwerty made about the Entropy Aegis did what Probes couldn't, maybe not.
In YOUNG JUSTICE: OWAW we see Probes on the Russian steepes in 2500 AD.
But later during their time bouncing around the time stream, we see them in 2020 when Earth gets turned into energy anr what's left becomes a black hole.
And when at a point, "--so remote that time and dates as we understand them no longer apply"
--a Probe tracks their "temporal wake."
So for all we know Steel breaking through time and space was just something the Probes can do on their own, but it just wasn't fully explored. Could they already have been there? Perhaps, but tracking temporal stuff sounds like something someone(or in this case something) time traveling would have. And we see them at other points, even after on Earth centuries after they destroyed it.
I mean DarkSaint, Hell, I can even give evidence against your argument about the Entropy Aegis is smaller to fit Steel. We saw them change size to Brainiac-13 size.
I mean unless it's Imperiex Prime teleporting in or something. But if not, for all we know the Entropy Aegis is actually the natural size of the Probes but we normally see them bigger. No worse an argument than ignoring what Darkseid said about the shell took the Omega Effect.
My dispute is this.
I am 100% in agreement with abhi and you that the tanks were amped. 100%. Do an advanced search, for 'B13' posts by me - you will see me arguing that they were amped as far back as 2014:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Black Lightning? When he was amped by B13 and a nuke? Isn't that leaving out context? Or are you lowballing?
HOWEVER, just as I argue that the tanks were amped, I use the EXACT same logic to argue that the Aegis is =/= a probe. All this arguing from me about the tanks, is to highlight the relative lack of evidence for the tanks being amped - and yet WE both agree they are amped. Look at the evidence we use to argue the tanks are amped - a throwaway line from a book not even in the OWAW TPB, some sketches from the Secret Files....and yet we BOTH agree it was amped.
Abhi goes to extreme lengths to argue that the probes and the Aegis are the same. Even goes to argue that it's artist's depictions, lol. But Mahnke draws the probes the same way every other artist did:
With little faces, capes, armour on (no abs, lol), helmet, the works.
In short, the Aegis was different. Abhi seems to think I am lowballing (lulzworthy!) - when in fact, I have and AM arguing that the tanks were amped with B13 tech, had a nuke, and was channelled through BL at a specific point - hardly a lowball. But he is so used to trying to win against JBL and Carv and Darthgoober, he doesn't see that I am arguing something different - that it was amped, and that the same logic should be applied to the Aegis. Only difference is, we have a LOT more evidence for the Aegis b being different, than for the nuke tanks being different.
Abhi is using the Aegis' feats for the probes. Can he not use,....you know, the probes' feats for the probes?
Originally posted by Delta1938
Like unless they meant something else, the tanks being Luthor's armaments, as the book says. I mean, could be the White House security system upgraded, but nuclear tanks? Sure not the hover tanks I thought, but that's a pretty decent upgrade. I also never got a quote for what exactly you're disputing with Abhi on the tanks.You keep bringing up what Professor Hamilton said about the Entropy Aegis to argue against it tanking the Omega Effect as the Imperiex Probe on it's own but Apokolipsian technology (whether you're arguing it was the tech itself or in addition). But why wouldn't Darkseid bring that up? He said the drone's shell. Sounds like the Probe itself is just that durable. So either what Hamilton is observing is the tech later(perhaps wasn't on) or just the property of the Probe itself. In the next page of the scan you posted, Steel talks about getting a crash course in entropic power control, says he doesn't even begin to understand the "hunk of alien metal" and Superman says "it's a little bit of Imperiex himself."
And Mr. Terrific said similar about Imperiex makes the Probes from himself.
I mean, I think the shell is just that durable, but could be the Entropy thing. Regardless, Darkseid didn't attribute it tanking the OE to Apokolipsian technology.
As for the argument Qwerty made about the Entropy Aegis did what Probes couldn't, maybe not.
In YOUNG JUSTICE: OWAW we see Probes on the Russian steepes in 2500 AD.
But later during their time bouncing around the time stream, we see them in 2020 when Earth gets turned into energy anr what's left becomes a black hole.
And when at a point, "--so remote that time and dates as we understand them no longer apply"
--a Probe tracks their "temporal wake."
So for all we know Steel breaking through time and space was just something the Probes can do on their own, but it just wasn't fully explored. Could they already have been there? Perhaps, but tracking temporal stuff sounds like something someone(or in this case something) time traveling would have. And we see them at other points, even after on Earth centuries after they destroyed it.
I mean DarkSaint, Hell, I can even give evidence against your argument about the Entropy Aegis is smaller to fit Steel. We saw them change size to Brainiac-13 size.
I mean unless it's Imperiex Prime teleporting in or something. But if not, for all we know the Entropy Aegis is actually the natural size of the Probes but we normally see them bigger. No worse an argument than ignoring what Darkseid said about the shell took the Omega Effect.
Also The EA was meant to grow to become an Imperiex-level entity. So from my point of view it not just some random probe, It should be growing more powerful as time passed
https://ibb.co/n83MK2B
https://ibb.co/ZM8dQS2
Regardless. Like I said before either EA no sold Omega Beams is a high showing for probes and Tanks example just a low showing for probes. We'll ignore low showings per forum rules
Or we can make arguments that based on some implications, Like the tank was amped and EA wasnt just a normal probe etc
About "It should have same appearance" part. I personally disagree with that
Take Wally for example. You can see here in only two pages space. Wally's appearance completely changed. Different constume and even had different lightning color.
https://ibb.co/N10Y5TQ
https://ibb.co/nrSXBXP
But there is no drastically power levels change mentioned here
Though I do agree EA's absorbing and nullifying all energy isnt something normal probes seems to be capable, Thus should be more durable than norma probes
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because they're the same, so they should look the same and do the same things.
Its like asking to match exact same feat for green Lanterns, of course there's gonna be different feats for different Lanterns. Doesn't mean anything.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Aegis feats don't transfer to Probes. Come on, guys...
The argument this started from was the Entropy Aegis tanking the Omega Effect. Arguments about the Apokolipsian tech were made. But Darkseid's description was all it was turning Imperiex's own power against him.
Originally posted by Delta1938
[B]Apokolips tech making it a weapon that will "bite the hand that fed it," that it's "anti-venom on a cosmic scale," and "it is the power of Imperiex turned against him." 3 different ways of saying the Apokolips tech is using Imperiex's own power against him, pretty specific.
Then after it takes the OE, after Superman leaves, Darkseid says the "Imperiex drone's shell repelled even my Omega Effect" He says nothing of Apokolipsian technology being part of it.
If the EA tanked them because of the Probe's shell, wouldn't that be a feat of the shell, so the Probes?
The other stuff I posted was just to argue actually there are examples that the Probes may have done some of the things being used to argue against the EA taking the OE because of the Probe's durability.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My dispute is this.I am 100% in agreement with abhi and you that the tanks were amped. 100%. Do an advanced search, for 'B13' posts by me - you will see me arguing that they were amped as far back as 2014:
HOWEVER, just as I argue that the tanks were amped, I use the EXACT same logic to argue that the Aegis is =/= a probe. All this arguing from me about the tanks, is to highlight the relative lack of evidence for the tanks being amped - and yet WE both agree they are amped. Look at the evidence we use to argue the tanks are amped - a throwaway line from a book not even in the OWAW TPB, some sketches from the Secret Files....and yet we BOTH agree it was amped.
Abhi goes to extreme lengths to argue that the probes and the Aegis are the same. Even goes to argue that it's artist's depictions, lol. But Mahnke draws the probes the same way every other artist did:
With little faces, capes, armour on (no abs, lol), helmet, the works.
In short, the Aegis was different. Abhi seems to think I am lowballing (lulzworthy!) - when in fact, I have and AM arguing that the tanks were amped with B13 tech, had a nuke, and was channelled through BL at a specific point - hardly a lowball. But he is so used to trying to win against JBL and Carv and Darthgoober, he doesn't see that I am arguing something different - that it was amped, and that the same logic should be applied to the Aegis. Only difference is, we have a LOT more evidence for the Aegis b being different, than for the nuke tanks being different.
Abhi is using the Aegis' feats for the probes. Can he not use,....you know, the probes' feats for the probes?
I actually missed this and Qwerty's post when I scrolled through and replied to Pr.
Did Abhi argue other things for the Aegis that I missed? I do believe I asked this question before without an answer. I ask because if he argued other things, then you continuing this would make sense. If not, you're either trolling him or outright ignoring what Darkseid said about it tanking the OE. It's like you acknowledged it but still don't count it. On top of that, your, "Can he not use the probes' feats for the probes?" is just wrong because he has.
Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not so sure about that. Entropy Aegis no sold omega beams and I don't recall energy attacks even affecting probes from Green Lantern and Earth Angels.
I noted Kyle was actually amped at the time(though an unknown degrer) with it being when he was becoming Ion, and Abhi agreed. So he brought up two examples that are what you asked for, in addition to the EA which evidence does support it was the Probe's durability, not Apokolips tech.
Originally posted by abhilegend
At their best the probes stalemated Mordru, beat 100,000 daxamites and hospitalized 90% of Earth's heroes. Destroyer has nothing on that level.
But all of this got forgotten because of the argument over whether tanking the OE should count or not.
But you say he uses the Aegis' feats. Plural. Again, did I miss Abhi arguing other feats from it?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, For my part. Entropy Aegis not only just broke space-time, but also entered a higher plane of existence where the Quintessence was sitting and judging, Which is more impressive than just travelling through time imoAlso The EA was meant to grow to become an Imperiex-level entity. So from my point of view it not just some random probe, It should be growing more powerful as time passed
https://ibb.co/n83MK2B
https://ibb.co/ZM8dQS2Regardless. Like I said before either EA no sold Omega Beams is a high showing for probes and Tanks example just a low showing for probes. We'll ignore low showings per forum rules
Or we can make arguments that based on some implications, Like the tank was amped and EA wasnt just a normal probe etc
Oh I get what you're saying. The problem is you're bringing up other things to argue the EA was more powerful because Probes didn't do that sort of thing, except we do have examples like that. And I agree breaking through is more than just time travel, but....can you prove the EA could do that but Probes couldn't? I don't think you can.
The EA tanking the OE however is supported to be the durability of the Probe because of what Darkseid said. If we didn't have what Darkseid said, you'd have a point.
As for what it was meant to do, that's fine and dandy, but doesn't dispute what Darkseid said about the "drone's shell " tanking the OE. Unless you have something more specific to contradict what Darkseid said?
Originally posted by Delta1938
Oh I get what you're saying. The problem is you're bringing up other things to argue the EA was more powerful because Probes didn't do that sort of thing, except we do have examples like that. And I agree breaking through is more than just time travel, but....can you prove the EA could do that but Probes couldn't? I don't think you can.The EA tanking the OE however is supported to be the durability of the Probe because of what Darkseid said. If we didn't have what Darkseid said, you'd have a point.
As for what it was meant to do, that's fine and dandy, but doesn't dispute what Darkseid said about the "drone's shell " tanking the OE. Unless you have something more specific to contradict what Darkseid said?
I personally view EA is to normal probes what Superman/Supergirl/Zod/*Insert any non-generic kryptonian is to generic kryptonians/Daxamites. Even though sometimes they were stated to be as powerful as other kryptonians, But their feats suggest oterhwise
And Like I said before, EA's feats seem to be more impressive. But this just my two cents