Superman vs. Gladiator, Hyperion, Sentry and Count Nefaria

Not even feats involving the exact same power, such as super strength?

If you believe that Hulk is stronger than Thor, then it stands to reason that you also believe that if Thor can lift X tons, then the Hulk can also lift X tons, right?

Since I'm back at work I don't really have the time for in-depth response, but as a quick response to the scenes Phil posted:

1. Sure, it was a regular exercise but there's still a lot of things we don't know about it, for all we know those five days could've amounted to one rep. But you're missing the point here. There's nothing to imply that Hyperion was at the limit of his strength when he held the two Earths apart, or that Superman's feat is necessarily greater. That's your interpretation, but it's not a necessary interpertation.

But if I recall correctly in Superman #13 (where the feat is from) there was a piece of narration that implied that Superman only could punch with the strength to topple mountains when he doesn't hold back. Now, if it was a one-time thing you could chalk it up to poetic license I suppose, but this particular phrase pops up again in his fight against H'El. How do you explain away that?

2. Volume is not indicative of mass, especially not when we're dealing with a setting with nature defying properties. And as far as I recall, we were never given a number of its mass. However, what is indicative of mass is gravity, and the gravitational influence of the mothership had on the Earth and the Moon was not significant enough to imply that we were dealing with anything close to planetary-masses.

3. It's been some time since I read the story. But Superman wasn't negating any natural force, he was negating Stardestroyers pull on the planet...which similarly is never quantified. Not to mention, wasn't he losing before the Justice League figured out that Stardetroyer was a vampire that fed on hopelessness. Anyway, the point is you can't put a number on this feat.

Of course, this isn't Hyperion's only planet-level feat in Avengers (2013) vol #23 he stops a planet-sized asteroid heading towards Earth.

Granted, I can't recall any specific instances of Gladiator moving planets, but he has matched Hyperion in physical in Quasar #54 (if that counts?) And Gladiator did shatter a planet with his bare hands in Marvel Comics Presents #49, which makes the Shadow Moon feat pale in comparison.

Note that the point I'm trying to make isn't that they're stronger than Superman, my point is that they're comparable to him.

Originally posted by Astner
Since I'm back at work I don't really have the time for in-depth response, but as a quick response to the scenes Phil posted:

1. Sure, it was a regular exercise but there's still a lot of things we don't know about it, for all we know those five days could've amounted to one rep. But you're missing the point here. There's nothing to imply that Hyperion was at the limit of his strength when he held the two Earths apart, or that Superman's feat is necessarily greater. That's your interpretation, but it's not a necessary interpertation.

But if I recall correctly in Superman #13 (where the feat is from) there was a piece of narration that implied that Superman only could punch with the strength to topple mountains when he doesn't hold back. Now, if it was a one-time thing you could chalk it up to poetic license I suppose, but this particular phrase pops up again in his fight against H'El. How do you explain away that?

2. Volume is not indicative of mass, especially not when we're dealing with a setting with nature defying properties. And as far as I recall, we were never given a number of its mass. However, what is indicative of mass is gravity, and the gravitational influence of the mothership had on the Earth and the Moon was not significant enough to imply that we were dealing with anything close to planetary-masses.

3. It's been some time since I read the story. But Superman wasn't negating any natural force, he was negating Stardestroyers pull on the planet...which similarly is never quantified. Not to mention, wasn't he losing before the Justice League figured out that Stardetroyer was a vampire that fed on hopelessness. Anyway, the point is you can't put a number on this feat.

Of course, this isn't Hyperion's only planet-level feat in Avengers (2013) vol #23 he stops a planet-sized asteroid heading towards Earth.

Granted, I can't recall any specific instances of Gladiator moving planets, but he has matched Hyperion in physical in Quasar #54 (if that counts?) And Gladiator did shatter a planet with his bare hands in Marvel Comics Presents #49, which makes the Shadow Moon feat pale in comparison.

Note that the point I'm trying to make isn't that they're stronger than Superman, my point is that they're comparable to him.

I mean writer said Hyperion pushed back Universal forces that were pushing on the Earths for what i assumed was for a while considering the wording, but that is a bit reaching on my part so Id say he pushed back two earths. But still more impressive than the lifting earth for 5 days imo.

Also Sentry would scale above that, considering the Annihlation Event where Gladiator and a bunch of the Annihlators and the other heralds were barely able to pin the Sentry.

Originally posted by YAYIMAGOD2323
I mean writer said Hyperion pushed back Universal forces that were pushing on the Earths for what i assumed was for a while considering the wording,

A good feat shouldn't have to rely on a particular interpretation of it to be imperssive.

Originally posted by YAYIMAGOD2323
but that is a bit reaching on my part so Id say he pushed back two earths. But still more impressive than the lifting earth for 5 days imo.

But it's still within the same order of magnitude, which, when dealing with masses on this scale is more than enough to justify that they're similar.

Originally posted by YAYIMAGOD2323
Also Sentry would scale above that, considering the Annihlation Event where Gladiator and a bunch of the Annihlators and the other heralds were barely able to pin the Sentry.

Originally posted by Astner
Yes. But I disagree with it for two reasons, (i) the story implies nothing more than him holding apart the planets, and (ii) writers indulging fans on social media doesn't have to mean anything.

A good feat shouldn't have to rely on a particular interpretation of it to be imperssive.

It isn't, mainly because of the distance between the center of gravity between the two Earths.

But it's still within the same order of magnitude, which, when dealing with masses on this scale is more than enough to justify that they're similar.

I don't think the Sentry is much stronger than Gladiator, Hyperion, Blue Marvel, the Hulk, or Thor, but he's far more versatile.

Originally posted by YAYIMAGOD2323
I mean writer said Hyperion pushed back Universal forces that were pushing on the Earths for what i assumed was for a while considering the wording, but that is a bit reaching on my part so Id say he pushed back two earths. But still more impressive than the lifting earth for 5 days imo.

Also Sentry would scale above that, considering the Annihlation Event where Gladiator and a bunch of the Annihlators and the other heralds were barely able to pin the Sentry.

You don't get a feat for failure.

Originally posted by Astner
Yes. But I disagree with it for two reasons, (i) the story implies nothing more than him holding apart the planets, and (ii) writers indulging fans on social media doesn't have to mean anything.

A good feat shouldn't have to rely on a particular interpretation of it to be imperssive.

It isn't, mainly because of the distance between the center of gravity between the two Earths.

But it's still within the same order of magnitude, which, when dealing with masses on this scale is more than enough to justify that they're similar.

I don't think the Sentry is much stronger than Gladiator, Hyperion, Blue Marvel, the Hulk, or Thor, but he's far more versatile.

1. Wasnt Reed saying that when Captain America was pushing back the incursion that he was pushing back universal forces acting on the earth which is hidden from them?

Im not sure if there was additional context in this feat that wasnt present from the Hyperion one, but if there was pls correct me

I mean Hickman doesnt seem like the kind of guy who would just agree to stuff for the hell of it imo, but ye he could be doing it, i could get behind it.

2. Ye true, a good feat is one that doesnt need too much context, but unfortunately not a lot of comics like to write stuff in a clear cut way so we have to intepret and make do with what we have.

3. Yeh Sentry doesnt really have much strength feats, but from what weve seen, its pretty insane

Originally posted by Astner
Since I'm back at work I don't really have the time for in-depth response, but as a quick response to the scenes Phil posted:

1. Sure, it was a regular exercise but there's still a lot of things we don't know about it, for all we know those five days could've amounted to one rep. But you're missing the point here. There's nothing to imply that Hyperion was at the limit of his strength when he held the two Earths apart, or that Superman's feat is necessarily greater. That's your interpretation, but it's not a necessary interpertation.

This is your entire argument in this thread, try to be contrarian without sharing any kind of proof.

But if I recall correctly in Superman #13 (where the feat is from) there was a piece of narration that implied that Superman only could punch with the strength to topple mountains when he doesn't hold back. Now, if it was a one-time thing you could chalk it up to poetic license I suppose, but this particular phrase pops up again in his fight against H'El. How do you explain away that?

The mountains must be really heavy because we have been given the exact weight Superman could lift, isn't that your whole argument? Quantifiable shit?

2. Volume is not indicative of mass, especially not when we're dealing with a setting with nature defying properties. And as far as I recall, we were never given a number of its mass. However, what is indicative of mass is gravity, and the gravitational influence of the mothership had on the Earth and the Moon was not significant enough to imply that we were dealing with anything close to planetary-masses.

Haha, guess we can discount pretty much everything which doesn't affects Earth as per laws of physics.

3. It's been some time since I read the story. But Superman wasn't negating any natural force, he was negating Stardestroyers pull on the planet...which similarly is never quantified. Not to mention, wasn't he losing before the Justice League figured out that Stardetroyer was a vampire that fed on hopelessness. Anyway, the point is you can't put a number on this feat.

You want quantification?

Originally posted by abhilegend
[B]And that "50 earth weight"? Its again a conservative estimate at best.

Look what Starbreaker says in this scan.

"The power of countless red suns flows through my veins."

And that's not a hyperbole as we know he is an evolved sun-eater and has actually consumed the energy of suns.

http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=star_trueform1.jpg
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=star_trueform2.jpg
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=star_trueform3.jpg

That was just two issues later.

And yet, Superman and Hal stalemating him completely depowered him.

So if we take "countless" as even two suns, that's [b]way more power than what h1 is using. I know its ludicrous, but facts are facts.

srug [/B]

Of course, this isn't Hyperion's only planet-level feat in Avengers (2013) vol #23 he stops a planet-sized asteroid heading towards Earth.

No, he didn't.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So that it can be moved to the idiosyncratic orbit of Earth because otherwise they had no chance of survival. Here's the full scans, if all they needed to do was Hyperion catching it and stopping it, why did the comic even happen lol.

LMAO, Hyperion both stopped it and it was still moving? I've never seen a bigger idiot than you.

The planet was already phased out of reality, Hyperion merely touched it and waited Thor to transport it to Earth's orbit.

Granted, I can't recall any specific instances of Gladiator moving planets, but he has matched Hyperion in physical in Quasar #54 (if that counts?) And Gladiator did shatter a planet with his bare hands in Marvel Comics Presents #49, which makes the Shadow Moon feat pale in comparison.

That's like comparing Gladiator's best feat ever to Superman's 100th best feat and even there Gladiator's feat pales because that shadow moon was moving at almost 1% of speed of light lol. That's like 700 times more energy to destroy the Earth.

Note that the point I'm trying to make isn't that they're stronger than Superman, my point is that they're comparable to him. [/B]

Only if you lowball the shit out of Superman.

Originally posted by YAYIMAGOD2323
1. Wasnt Reed saying that when Captain America was pushing back the incursion that he was pushing back universal forces acting on the earth which is hidden from them?

Im not sure if there was additional context in this feat that wasnt present from the Hyperion one, but if there was pls correct me

I mean Hickman doesnt seem like the kind of guy who would just agree to stuff for the hell of it imo, but ye he could be doing it, i could get behind it.

2. Ye true, a good feat is one that doesnt need too much context, but unfortunately not a lot of comics like to write stuff in a clear cut way so we have to intepret and make do with what we have.

3. Yeh Sentry doesnt really have much strength feats, but from what weve seen, its pretty insane

Originally posted by abhilegend
As per the secret wars guidebook Hyperion tried and failed pushing planets apart.

You don't get a feat for failure.

I've personally calced the shadow moon feat as have several others and yeah, over seven hundred times the energy required to destroy the Earth is accurate. Pretty easily quantifiable feat, just because we're actually given the velocity.

And this is only really scratching the surface. Astner, are you aware that current Superman has fairly recent feats like shattering a planet by jumping off of it while sunlight deprived and weakened, or shattering chains binding him that are used to haul stars between galaxies? Even if you aren't aware of more obscure feats like the Byrne-era one Phil posted Superman has had a lot of very big high profile feats in the recent past.

Originally posted by YAYIMAGOD2323
1. Wasnt Reed saying that when Captain America was pushing back the incursion that he was pushing back universal forces acting on the earth which is hidden from them?

Im not sure if there was additional context in this feat that wasnt present from the Hyperion one, but if there was pls correct me

I mean Hickman doesnt seem like the kind of guy who would just agree to stuff for the hell of it imo, but ye he could be doing it, i could get behind it.

2. Ye true, a good feat is one that doesnt need too much context, but unfortunately not a lot of comics like to write stuff in a clear cut way so we have to intepret and make do with what we have.

3. Yeh Sentry doesnt really have much strength feats, but from what weve seen, its pretty insane

Originally posted by NemeBro
I've personally calced the shadow moon feat as have several others and yeah, over seven hundred times the energy required to destroy the Earth is accurate. Pretty easily quantifiable feat, just because we're actually given the velocity.

The velocity of the Shadow Moon is not going to make it more difficult to disintegrate, on the contrary, it's going to add to the relative kinetic energy of the collision.

But since you're aware of its velocity that also means you're ignoring the weight Batman assigned to it: 81 billion tons, which is about a trillionth of the mass of th actual moon. To be fair, I could accept either weight here, but to it should be mentioned regardless.

- Justice League of America #30

All that really had to be done is to fragment the Shadow Moon so that the pieces would disintegrate in the atmosphere.

Originally posted by NemeBro
And this is only really scratching the surface. Astner, are you aware that current Superman has fairly recent feats like shattering a planet by jumping off of it while sunlight deprived and weakened, or shattering chains binding him that are used to haul stars between galaxies? Even if you aren't aware of more obscure feats like the Byrne-era one Phil posted Superman has had a lot of very big high profile feats in the recent past.

And Superman breaking the "star-hauling chains" from Superman Up In The Sky #5 - #6, is part of a dream sequence.

Breaking a planet like Gladiator did would definitely end up at the top of any Superman respect thread.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I've personally calced the shadow moon feat as have several others and yeah, over seven hundred times the energy required to destroy the Earth is accurate. Pretty easily quantifiable feat, just because we're actually given the velocity.

And this is only really scratching the surface. Astner, are you aware that current Superman has fairly recent feats like shattering a planet by jumping off of it while sunlight deprived and weakened, or shattering chains binding him that are used to haul stars between galaxies? Even if you aren't aware of more obscure feats like the Byrne-era one Phil posted Superman has had a lot of very big high profile feats in the recent past.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Supergirl can haul stars, survives attacks that could destroy several solar systems, hits hard enough to shake the cosmos and is brought down by attacks that could destroy galaxies.

😂

Even Supergirl has feats like this recently.

Abhi, real talk.

Why DC has created so many Supergirls and so few Superboys?

Originally posted by Astner
Then you (and several others) have miscalculated.

The velocity of the Shadow Moon is not going to make it more difficult to disintegrate, on the contrary, it's going to add to the relative kinetic energy of the collision.

Yeah, that's not how collision works lol.

But since you're aware of its velocity that also means you're ignoring the weight Batman assigned to it: 81 billion tons, which is about a trillionth of the mass of th actual moon. To be fair, I could accept either weight here, but to it should be mentioned regardless.

- Justice League of America #30

McDuffie accepted it was an error, unless you think real moon is basically a mountain as Batman stated that it has the mass of the real moon.

All that really had to be done is to fragment the Shadow Moon so that the pieces would disintegrate in the atmosphere.

Wut? They were not in Earth's atmosphere.

Superman getting off the Prison Planet in the 6th dimension is questionable, but fair enough I suppose.

How's it questionable?

And Superman breaking the "star-hauling chains" from Superman Up In The Sky #5 - #6, is part of a dream sequence.

Lolwut? Are you stoned or something?

Breaking a planet like Gladiator did would definitely end up at the top of any Superman respect thread.

Not even close lmao.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Abhi, real talk.

Why DC has created so many Supergirls and so few Superboys?

😂

👆

Per the dialogue Superman not just destroyed it, but "deflected" it away from the Earth, he didn't shatter it and then let the debris be vaporized in the atmosphere. To stop its forward momentum and deflect it away from Earth head on Superman would have to generate more kinetic energy than it was.

As far as Batman's listed mass, apparently McDuffie, the writer, owned up to miscalculating the mass of the shadow moon on his (now deleted) website. Regardless of whether or not you buy that it is clear the mass is meant to be the same as Earth's moon, given the text states it is the same very explicitly.

Originally posted by NemeBro
(now deleted) website

Tried Wayback Machine?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Tried Wayback Machine?