Originally posted by Endless Mike
That's a good one, but was it a purely physical feat, or were there some kind of energy powers involved?
Originally posted by Philosophía
Put your hate for abhi aside for a moment and let's agree that if you change your mind [or I do], you [or I] will acknowledge it. I know the rest have an agenda, but I know I can talk to you. There's never been [or will be] bad blood between us, so we can go at this rationally. Maybe I, or you, missed something.Agree?
Now, let's look at the issue. I will put this in chonological order.
1). Take a moment and, please, look at it carefully:
a). the Solar System still existing [b]3 seconds
before Hal/Kyle arrive as Orion/Golem are in a blast off in space [we see the blast off and the solar system specifically in panel 1]
b). we see the shockwave from their blast off in space extending and approaching the planet [panel 4/last panel]At this point we have a few facts:
- the solar system is not destroyed
- Orion/Golem are involved in a blast off in space
- there's seconds before Hal/Kyle arriveI'm sure you agree here.
Let's move on to the next scan:
a). We see Graf [panel 1] feeling the destruction that is taking place on the last panel of the previous page
b). There are 2 seconds left panel 2
c). Orion and the Golem are standing in front of each other continuing their blast off [panel 3]
d). Through Graf's eyes you can see Golem and Orion still blasting each other as he mutters "I'm too late" as the shockwaves expand and take everything[panel 4]
e). 0 seconds left Hal and Kyle arrive.Facts:
- Throughout this small time frame of seconds, Orion and the Golem are involved in a face to face blast off in space [we see the fight.
- In fact, for every second of this entire scene we see them face to face in a blast off, first through a wide picture of the solar system [not destroyed], then through a close up of them, then through Graf's eyes. This is happening in sequential seconds, in all of them us seeing the fight and destruction.
- we see the shockwaves approach the planets [we see the destruction]
- we have a timeframe [we get the seconds counterAnd finally, Hal and Kyle arrive and we see what Graf saw was happening in those few seconds, which is that the solar system was destroyed:
We then see Kyle/Hal after the solar system is destroyed looking in the distance as the fight still takes place..
Only to hear a ping as Orion teleports from out of there engulfed in the energies of their fight:
At this point he is running from the Omega Beams -- i.e. the one attack from the Golem that can truly kill him. [a weapon that he needs to charge]
It is made clear that the Omega Beams are the ones Orion fears:
That is why you see him running -- he fought him off in a blast off [unfortunately for the solar system] until the Omega Beams were charged and then he got one-shotted.
This is quite clear just in case it wasn't, the writer hammers it over the head with Kyle telling Orion not have the blast off with Golem, as it destroyed the solar system last time:
And to top it all of, we have the writer confirming what we already know: Orion and The Golem faced each-other, face to face, in a blast-off in space, in a specified timeframe, with specific solar-system destruction, specifically due to the shockwaves, until Hal/Kyle arrived and the charged Omega Beams hit Orion:
So:
We see the fight [it's them literally standing face to face and trading blasts] through multiple viewpoints [far off, close-up, through Graf]
We see the timeframe [seconds]
We see the shockwaves approaching the planet, we see its destruction felt
We see the solar system go from not destroyed to destroyed, specifically by the shockwaves that are generated specifically by them slugfesting energy blasts
We see Hal/Kyle arriving and seeing the specific spot where Orion/Golem trade off hits, until Orion runs from the OBs.Now, xJLx, can you honestly tell me that this is not a direct standstill power face off whose after shocks destroyed a solar system in seconds? That Orion in that face off where he stood face to face with the Golem, shown multiple times, until the solar system fell? That Orion stood there and wasn't treated as a bug until the Omega Beams came into place? This won't be conceding to abhi or any shit like that -- you're talking to me.
[/B]
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Why wouldn't it? It would be like saying if I had an infinite amount of tanks, planes, and soldiers, but I still had to conquer the USA one state at a time, even when I was trying to do so as fast as I could.
That's not how it works in comics.
Not just the horns, more the fact that these versions of the crises were explicitly stated to be different. But I can accept at least the FC one being a multiverse because of the multiple alternate Supermen as you pointed out.
The only difference was that the villains won. What other difference was shown BEFORE the villains entered the multiverses?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I ignore any feat where the character would have to sink into the ground in order to lift the object, or he would go straight through the object.
I misread, but my point is that you allow narrative convenience for 100 tons, but not for infinity tons.So where does your line stop? 100,000 tons? A billion?
I know, I know, it's random, but this way I can just keep characters at Spiderman level and ignore anything I don't like, which is right where I want them.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
It seemed to be implying that the Earth was necessary to channel the power, so just getting rid of it in any way would work. Then again, they would need a place to make their last stand.I haven't seen that one. Do you have the scans?
Not necessarily, as IIRC, he was at the core of the Earth at the time. So shifting it such a short distance from its center of mass probably wouldn't cause that much issue. Or even if it would, it's a lot more believable than lifting infinite weight.
I'm skeptical of any feat I consider to be too outrageous compared to a character's consistent high-end showings. The Hulk and Superman obviously aren't written as having literally infinite strength, else they would never struggle with anything. Considering that the book thing only happened once, it's also an outlier, combined with not making any real sense. Same with the Hulk/Ironclad clash.
Lol. Being at the Earth's core, with that mass, would throw it out of alignment. It would cause a ton of issues.
So basically, you apply this 'logic' to outlier feats. Which is very different from applying it to scientifically questionable feats.
Originally posted by Philosophía
I ignore any feat where the character would have to sink into the ground in order to lift the object, or he would go straight through the object.I know, I know, it's random, but this way I can just keep characters at Spiderman level and ignore anything I don't like, which is right where I want them.
Exactly.
Also, feats like Hulk throwing Foom to the moon would result either in a crater larger than a city or Hulk zipping towards the core of the Earth lol.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. Being at the Earth's core, with that mass, would throw it out of alignment. It would cause a ton of issues.So basically, you apply this 'logic' to outlier feats. Which is very different from applying it to scientifically questionable feats.
Not if he's just moving it a meter or so. The Earth is already rotating, orbiting the sun, wobbling on its axis, etc. So it's continuous in motion in multiple different directions. Granted I could be wrong here, but I don't think it would affect much, as Superman would be moving it much more slowly and over a much smaller distance than any of its natural movements.
But anyway, it's disingenuous to suggest that there's no difference between suspending disbelief for something like that, and doing so for something that is literally infinitely greater. If Superman or the Hulk (or any other character) had literally infinite strength, they would never struggle with or fail at any physical task, they would end every physical fight instantly (even moreso than Saitama does), and they wouldn't ever be weakened or amped, because any fraction or multiple of infinity is still infinity. It just doesn't make sense, from my perspective at least.
The only characters I could accept as having literally infinite power are reality warpers who aren't bound by physical bodies and don't rely on brute strength.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not if he's just moving it a meter or so. The Earth is already rotating, orbiting the sun, wobbling on its axis, etc. So it's continuous in motion in multiple different directions. Granted I could be wrong here, but I don't think it would affect much, as Superman would be moving it much more slowly and over a much smaller distance than any of its natural movements.But anyway, it's disingenuous to suggest that there's no difference between suspending disbelief for something like that, and doing so for something that is literally infinitely greater. If Superman or the Hulk (or any other character) had literally infinite strength, they would never struggle with or fail at any physical task, they would end every physical fight instantly (even moreso than Saitama does), and they wouldn't ever be weakened or amped, because any fraction or multiple of infinity is still infinity. It just doesn't make sense, from my perspective at least.
The only characters I could accept as having literally infinite power are reality warpers who aren't bound by physical bodies and don't rely on brute strength.
But this logic confines fictional characters who have no limits, should yh writers deem it so. If Marvel decide tomorrow that after 50 years, Mjolnir is suddenly sentient - they can do so.
If DC decide tomorrow that Superman and Batman enjoy the protection of the most powerful 5D imps, they can do so.
They can decide that Donald Blake is a completely separate sentient entity to Thor.
That Batman does things....because he is Batman, and never loses.
It just is. And for you to come around, especially having not read comics for a while, and say 'well, here are my preconceived notions based on half-remembered comics from 8 years ago' , is a bit weird.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But this logic confines fictional characters who have no limits, should yh writers deem it so. If Marvel decide tomorrow that after 50 years, Mjolnir is suddenly sentient - they can do so.If DC decide tomorrow that Superman and Batman enjoy the protection of the most powerful 5D imps, they can do so.
They can decide that Donald Blake is a completely separate sentient entity to Thor.
That Batman does things....because he is Batman, and never loses.
They can do the first 3, but in order to the fourth one, they would have to retcon all of Batman's losses. And he has a lot of them.
It just is. And for you to come around, especially having not read comics for a while, and say 'well, here are my preconceived notions based on half-remembered comics from 8 years ago' , is a bit weird.
Well I really don't think that they've upgraded the strength of either Superman or the Hulk to literally infinity in the past 8 years. I probably would have heard about that. 🙄
Originally posted by Endless Mike
They can do the first 3, but in order to the fourth one, they would have to retcon all of Batman's losses. And he has a lot of them.Well I really don't think that they've upgraded the strength of either Superman or the Hulk to literally infinity in the past 8 years. I probably would have heard about that. 🙄
They've already done all four.
So if you want an explanation for how Superman can lift infinity, as you're ok with reality warpers doing it, then just chalk it up to Mxy blessing Superman with his favour.
Well, yeah, outliers are a thing in fiction( not just comics, but it also happens in manga/anime).
So I basically agree with Milke here. My only problem just I don't think you should resort to some deep scientific rules to discredit a feat, since most of feats violated them
But anyway, this problem doesn't really matter I suppose
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They've already done all four.
Really? They've retconned every single Batman loss, ever? And explicitly stated that he can never lose, and never has lost? I'd like to see that.
So if you want an explanation for how Superman can lift infinity, as you're ok with reality warpers doing it, then just chalk it up to Mxy blessing Superman with his favour.
If you insist, but that wouldn't be his personal power. And considering all of the other times his strength has shown itself to be below infinity (which would be... literally every other single time he has appeared in comics ever), that hardly makes it a valid feat to use in order to judge his strength under normal circumstances.
You do realize that most characters have at least a few crazy, out-there feats that don't make sense, right? Astner earlier posted Bor, Odin, and Thor as kids moving books with infinite pages. I don't think that makes their strength infinite, either.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, yeah, outliers are a thing in fiction( not just comics, but it also happens in manga/anime).So I basically agree with Milke here. My only problem just I don't think you should resort to some deep scientific rules to discredit a feat, since most of feats violated them
But anyway, this problem doesn't really matter I suppose
Pretty much.
Outliers exist, of course they do.
But to then dress it up in a sheen of 'well, numbers' would be wrong - because every comic character would fall over once we turn that lens onto them.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Really? They've retconned every single Batman loss, ever? And explicitly stated that he can never lose, and never has lost? I'd like to see that.If you insist, but that wouldn't be his personal power. And considering all of the other times his strength has shown itself to be below infinity (which would be... literally every other single time he has appeared in comics ever), that hardly makes it a valid feat to use in order to judge his strength under normal circumstances.
You do realize that most characters have at least a few crazy, out-there feats that don't make sense, right? Astner earlier posted Bor, Odin, and Thor as kids moving books with infinite pages. I don't think that makes their strength infinite, either.
Shazam and Black Adam enjoy the blessings and protection of their gods.
WW too.
Juggernaut as well
Limiting it to their 'personal power' is very iffy. What is Tony, without his armour? Hal, without the Guardians bestowing a magical wishing ring on him?
Hell, with Thor, most of his feats (especially his striking ones) would disappear, because technically they're Mjolnir's feats.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, yeah, outliers are a thing in fiction( not just comics, but it also happens in manga/anime).
It happens in everything. Novels, video games, webcomics, movies, TV shows, etc. The only time there could never be outliers would be in a short, self-contained story where a character only has one or two appearances total, and never appeared again.
So I basically agree with Milke here. My only problem just I don't think you should resort to some deep scientific rules to discredit a feat, since most of feats violated themBut anyway, this problem doesn't really matter I suppose
Yeah. Note that I'm still listing the infinite feats on the list, just putting a disclaimer on them.
Anyway, we should post some more feats. How about some from other super strength characters, like Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Gladiator, Supreme, Hyperion, or even Thor (despite how hated he seemingly is around here)?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Shazam and Black Adam enjoy the blessings and protection of their gods.WW too.
Juggernaut as well
Limiting it to their 'personal power' is very iffy. What is Tony, without his armour? Hal, without the Guardians bestowing a magical wishing ring on him?
Hell, with Thor, most of his feats (especially his striking ones) would disappear, because technically they're Mjolnir's feats.
I don't think Mxy is perpetually empowering Superman like Cyttorak does to Juggernaut.
Anyway, what I'm asking is, do you really think it's reasonable to believe that Superman's physical strength is infinite? Not as in 'the writers will make him as strong as he needs to be to overcome the obstacle', but as in he can literally lift infinite weight and punch with infinite force - whenever he wants to?
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I don't think Mxy is perpetually empowering Superman like Cyttorak does to Juggernaut.Anyway, what I'm asking is, do you really think it's reasonable to believe that Superman's physical strength is infinite? Not as in 'the writers will make him as strong as he needs to be to overcome the obstacle', but as in he can literally lift infinite weight and punch with infinite force - whenever he wants to?
Literally his guardian angel (same with Bat-mite).
So yeah. Even Mxy says it (and says Superman/Batman wins, as always):
https://i.postimg.cc/Y9mybQdv/22-7.jpg
Amongst other scans:
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Not if he's just moving it a meter or so. The Earth is already rotating, orbiting the sun, wobbling on its axis, etc. So it's continuous in motion in multiple different directions. Granted I could be wrong here, but I don't think it would affect much, as Superman would be moving it much more slowly and over a much smaller distance than any of its natural movements.But anyway, it's disingenuous to suggest that there's no difference between suspending disbelief for something like that, and doing so for something that is literally infinitely greater. If Superman or the Hulk (or any other character) had literally infinite strength, they would never struggle with or fail at any physical task, they would end every physical fight instantly (even moreso than Saitama does), and they wouldn't ever be weakened or amped, because any fraction or multiple of infinity is still infinity. It just doesn't make sense, from my perspective at least.
The only characters I could accept as having literally infinite power are reality warpers who aren't bound by physical bodies and don't rely on brute strength.
You don't think literally doubling the mass of Earth would have any effect on the Earth's core, it wouldn't pull the Moon out of alignment etc etc etc?
OK.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
It happens in everything. Novels, video games, webcomics, movies, TV shows, etc. The only time there could never be outliers would be in a short, self-contained story where a character only has one or two appearances total, and never appeared again.Yeah. Note that I'm still listing the infinite feats on the list, just putting a disclaimer on them.
Anyway, we should post some more feats. How about some from other super strength characters, like Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Gladiator, Supreme, Hyperion, or even Thor (despite how hated he seemingly is around here)?
But tbh, Superman is the only character I love in comics( I'm not even a comic books fan, manga/anime are what I mainly focus 🙁 ). I'm not too familiar with other characters, so most feats I posted probably still are Superman's
Superman moved a giant star with his super-breath in Action Comics (1938) #261, later retold in DC Special Series #26
