Benching the Earth's weight doesn't double it, any more than the Earth rotating or orbiting the sun (both much faster than Superman was lifting it) increase it's weight. (Well technically its mass is slightly increased due to relativity, but that's even less of an issue at such slow speeds).
If we say he's doing one rep per second, over a distance of 1 meter, then that's almost 30000 times slower than the speed that the Earth orbits the sun.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Benching the Earth's weight doesn't double it, any more than the Earth rotating or orbiting the sun (both much faster than Superman was lifting it) increase it's weight. (Well technically its mass is slightly increased due to relativity, but that's even less of an issue at such slow speeds).If we say he's doing one rep per second, over a distance of 1 meter, then that's almost 30000 times slower than the speed that the Earth orbits the sun.
No, but that's not my point.
There now exists, at the core of the Earth, in the comic, something that has the mass of Earth (which Superman is benching). Thus, the entire Earth system now has 2x Earth's mass (Earth, plus this machine).
This (literally) massive mass, would affect the Earth-Moon system. The Moon would be pulled towards the center of this new Earth+mass, and meanwhile, the molten magma etc inside the Earth would be pulled towards this Earth-mass machine (not to mention the tides etc).
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, but that's not my point.There now exists, at the core of the Earth, in the comic, something that has the mass of Earth (which Superman is benching). Thus, the entire Earth system now has 2x Earth's mass (Earth, plus this machine).
This (literally) massive mass, would affect the Earth-Moon system. The Moon would be pulled towards the center of this new Earth+mass, and meanwhile, the molten magma etc inside the Earth would be pulled towards this Earth-mass machine.
I was under the impression that he was slightly shifting the mass of the planet itself, not lifting something completely different that had equal mass to Earth. The latter was never hinted at and, if those scientists could just build something with the same mass as Earth, there would be no reason for it to be in the Earth's core. It could be anywhere.
I'm not denying that this feat defies physics, but it does so a lot less than you're suggesting.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I was under the impression that he was slightly shifting the mass of the planet itself, not lifting something completely different that had equal mass to Earth. The latter was never hinted at and, if those scientists could just build something with the same mass as Earth, there would be no reason for it to be in the Earth's core. It could be anywhere.I'm not denying that this feat defies physics, but it does so a lot less than you're suggesting.
Actually, it is a machine that replicates the mass of the planet
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Also I want to mention in Superman The Ultimate Guide to the Man of Steel bio also cements Superman's 5 days Earth bench pressing feat[B]During tests conducted by Dr.Veritas, Superman exercises in a machine that replicates the weight of the Earth(5.972 sextillion metric tons) for five days straight
https://i.ibb.co/1MmvBVc/1.jpg
So, it is more illogical to assume the feat of Superman is questionable due to some information we don't know rather than take the limited information the comic gave literally IMO [/B]
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I was under the impression that he was slightly shifting the mass of the planet itself, not lifting something completely different that had equal mass to Earth. The latter was never hinted at and, if those scientists could just build something with the same mass as Earth, there would be no reason for it to be in the Earth's core. It could be anywhere.I'm not denying that this feat defies physics, but it does so a lot less than you're suggesting.
The comic states he was benching the equivalent of the mass of the Earth ('you have essentially (emphasis mine) been benchpressing that(again, emphasis mine, 'that' referring to the kg of the Earth) for five days'😉.
Unless your understanding is that he was literally moving the entire physical planet of Earth, lol. Which....how? What was he pressing against?
And lol at the location being somehow proof. Maybe Veritas just likes hanging out there?
Edit: Qwerty got my back.
So yeah. You not liking something because 'numbers', means I can throw almost anything out. This is science fiction, after all.
Originally posted by Endless MikeMike, what you're doing here is making imaginary lines of what you like, what you don't like, and then trying to justify a conclusion you've already arrived in reverse. Then, when you're called out on not actually having a consistent standard, and that you can dismiss most of comic book feats by going with physics related arguments, you revert to "I suspend disbelief for this, for that, but not for that, and also not for that. I also suspend it for that character, but not that character, maybe for this character too, but definitely not for this character".
But anyway, it's disingenuous to suggest that there's no difference between suspending disbelief for something like that, and doing so for something that is literally infinitely greater. If Superman or the Hulk (or any other character) had literally infinite strength, they would never struggle with or fail at any physical task, they would end every physical fight instantly (even moreso than Saitama does),
It's perfectly ok to just say -- yes, the feat is valid. Yes, you don't like it for personal reasons. Yes, you see it as an outlier. And yes, you don't think it's a fair representation of the character of Superman for the vast majority of time. You'll find that most people will agree on most of these points [including me, on most of them]. Whether Superman can lift the infinite stories of the entire Creation [which he did], or whether he can operate at magnitudes above star level [he did], or whether he can bench-press the Earth for 5 days without sunlight casually [he did] --- even if these feats are themselves separated by orders of magnitude, they still individually break the vast majority of of comic book scenes. Superman struggling with a man-made object is stupid either way, considering the above [and many others like them], but that doesn't mean we'll just start allowing personal bias to just go "nuh uh, I don't like it, therefore it's not valid".
Let me give you an even easier example -- Flash. If you take his best feat, 99 % of his stories would be broken. Do we ignore the feat? No. If you take his 5th best speed feat, are 99 % of his broken? Also yes. Do I suspend disbelief for his 5th feat, but I randomly don't for the 1st feat, because I think it's "too high" and it would mean "any threat is ended instantly"? No. They're both valid -- but if you want to discuss them as outliers, then we can have that discussion, and you'll find much more common ground there.
Btw, it's been two days, have you by any chance read the issue for the highly-ranked feats you've put on position 5 and 6 without asterisks, that you haven't read in a long time?
It's possible to create a resistance without using actual weights. Think of elastic bands for example. There exist a way a machine can be constructed to allow the resistance of an Earth weight equivalent without needing a mass of an actual Earth weight PROVIDED the makeup materials is strong enough to withstand the stress without breaking.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Wonder Woman moves the sun to restore Earth's orbit (and mentions that she has done it before which was done in golden age).Apollo casually moves the Earth back into the orbit.
😂
Originally posted by Galan007
Hal:
Hal plays pool with Earth sized planets.
Jessica Cruz saves a planet inside a supernova and holds it together.
Originally posted by abhilegend
.Later she held the entire planet together.
https://static2.cbrimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/GLS-34-1.jpg
https://static2.cbrimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/GLS-34-2.jpgInside a supernova.
Simon Baz pulls Jessica out of a black hole
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Actually, it is a machine that replicates the mass of the planet
I took that to mean some sort of gravity manipulation, like Hawkman's Claw of Horus being able to hit you 'with the weight of the planet'.
The comic states he was benching the equivalent of the mass of the Earth ('you have essentially (emphasis mine) been benchpressing that(again, emphasis mine, 'that' referring to the kg of the Earth) for five days'😉.Unless your understanding is that he was literally moving the entire physical planet of Earth, lol. Which....how? What was he pressing against?
And lol at the location being somehow proof. Maybe Veritas just likes hanging out there?
Edit: Qwerty got my back.
So yeah. You not liking something because 'numbers', means I can throw almost anything out. This is science fiction, after all.
Okay, but, there is a big difference between large numbers and literal infinity. Because compared to infinity, any finite number is nothing. Moving/destroying planets, stars, galaxies, or the entire universe is quite literally nothing compared to infinity.
Mike, what you're doing here is making imaginary lines of what you like, what you don't like, and then trying to justify a conclusion you've already arrived in reverse. Then, when you're called out on not actually having a consistent standard, and that you can dismiss most of comic book feats by going with physics related arguments, you revert to "I suspend disbelief for this, for that, but not for that, and also not for that. I also suspend it for that character, but not that character, maybe for this character too, but definitely not for this character".It's perfectly ok to just say -- yes, the feat is valid. Yes, you don't like it for personal reasons. Yes, you see it as an outlier. And yes, you don't think it's a fair representation of the character of Superman for the vast majority of time. You'll find that most people will agree on most of these points [including me, on most of them]. Whether Superman can lift the infinite stories of the entire Creation [which he did], or whether he can operate at magnitudes above star level [he did], or whether he can bench-press the Earth for 5 days without sunlight casually [he did] --- even if these feats are themselves separated by orders of magnitude, they still individually break the vast majority of of comic book scenes. Superman struggling with a man-made object is stupid either way, considering the above [and many others like them], but that doesn't mean we'll just start allowing personal bias to just go "nuh uh, I don't like it, therefore it's not valid".
There's a big difference between the first one and the other two. It's not just orders of magnitude - it's infinite orders of magnitude.
Let me give you an even easier example -- Flash. If you take his best feat, 99 % of his stories would be broken. Do we ignore the feat? No. If you take his 5th best speed feat, are 99 % of his broken? Also yes. Do I suspend disbelief for his 5th feat, but I randomly don't for the 1st feat, because I think it's "too high" and it would mean "any threat is ended instantly"? No. They're both valid -- but if you want to discuss them as outliers, then we can have that discussion, and you'll find much more common ground there.
I don't recall anyone saying the Flash had literally infinite speed though (unless you count abusing time travel).
Btw, it's been two days, have you by any chance read the issue for the highly-ranked feats you've put on position 5 and 6 without asterisks, that you haven't read in a long time?
Yes, I reread it. Incredible Hulk #126.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Okay, but, there is a big difference between large numbers and literal infinity. Because compared to infinity, any finite number is nothing. Moving/destroying planets, stars, galaxies, or the entire universe is quite literally nothing compared to infinity.
It's like me writing a story where I, DS85, can lift infinity. And then, next week, struggle with a bank robber. I can, because it is fiction. Anything can happen.
I don't recall anyone saying the Flash had literally infinite speed though (unless you count abusing time travel).
Edit: also, you seem to have glossed over large parts of Phildo's post.
Even removing the infinite story feat, Superman's other feats are so outlandish that your viewpoint,that it's not consistent, would throw it all out. I mean,this is your statement:
The Hulk and Superman obviously aren't written as having literally infinite strength, else they would never struggle with anything.
But being able to bench the mass of the Earth, for five days, without any sunlight, with only a single drop of sweat after all of that, means he would never struggle with anything else, either.
The Flash in DC Rebirth era
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=101622
But seriously, I also would have never dreamed that after a dacade, Flash really can drop the multiverse on someones head, faster than the Speed Force or such 😂
But speaking of Flash. Does this count as a physical feat? Since they generated this level of energy by running and fighting?
This feat comes from The Flash 49( August 2018)
Originally posted by abhilegend
Two flashes can make the fabric of the multiverse shudder.The race is on.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And I want to add that in recent The DC Book of Lists: A Multiverse of Legacies, Histories, and Hierarchies. The race between Superman and Flash is also included inThis Superman and Flash races presented in the list are all canon stuff, which further cemented UITS's canonicity
Full list
https://ibb.co/54xdC66
https://ibb.co/PhfLYcC
https://ibb.co/ScmxjrY
Originally posted by DarkSaint85And? Again, this is science fiction. You are trying to pigeonhole and box characters into preconceived categories.
It's like me writing a story where I, DS85, can lift infinity. And then, next week, struggle with a bank robber. I can, because it is fiction. Anything can happen.
Yeah but I'd call that a huge inconsistency.
You have not been reading comics for 8 years. What you can or cannot recollect, tbh, is moot.Edit: also, you seem to have glossed over large parts of Phildo's post.
Even removing the infinite story feat, Superman's other feats are so outlandish that your viewpoint,that it's not consistent, would throw it all out. I mean,this is your statement:
But being able to bench the mass of the Earth, for five days, without any sunlight, with only a single drop of sweat after all of that, means he would never struggle with anything else, either.
You don't seem to understand the difference between finite and infinite. Any finite force can be overcome by a stronger force. Infinity can't be overcome by anything that isn't itself infinite.
Anyway, here's an updated list:
1. Ultraman lifts infinite book (if you take it literally*)
2**. TIE: Superman and Captain Marvel lift infinite book / Hulk and Ironclad shake infinite dimensions / Superman and Jaxon's fight releases enough energy to fix infinite timelines (if you take any of these literally*)
3. Superboy Prime destroys more than 3 universes with a punch
4. Flashes racing affects the multiverse**
5. Superman destroys Big-Bang-proof pyramid
6. Hulk reverses universe-destroying blast with a thunderclap
7. Hulk's punch lights up dark cosmos
8. Superman sneezes away solar system
9. Superman breaks star-moving chains
10. Superman moves giant star with his breath
11. Lobo pulls Pulsar Stargrave
12. Superboy throws mini neutron star
13. Wonder Woman moves the sun***
14. Hulk resists weight of a star
15. Hulk walks through Vector's blast
16. Superman bench presses weight of Earth for 5 days
17. Superman changes diamond into coal
18. Superman catches 2 ton weight
* I don't
** Ranked lower because they are shared feats
*** This one could be interpreted as just moving the Earth by manipulating the sun's gravity, but she did have her lasso around the sun, so I'll treat it as moving the sun just because I don't want another long and pointless argument with abhi
I'm not counting the Green Lantern feats since they're done with energy constructs, not physical strength.
I'm also not sure about the Flash multiverse feat, as it's hard to tell if it's from their movement alone or from manipulating the speedforce, and we don't see that many details on what exactly is happening to the multiverse. But I included it.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
You don't seem to understand the difference between finite and infinite. Any finite force can be overcome by a stronger force. Infinity can't be overcome by anything that isn't itself infinite.
Pretty much. The most figurative analogy I can come about the difference between finite and infinite is speed of light, or more accurately, the difference between slower than lightspeed objects and faster than lightspeed objects
It is impossible for any object that below lightspeed to accelerate above it. The only way you can faster than FTL speed, is yourself already moves at FTL speed.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Anyway, here's an updated list:1. Ultraman lifts infinite book (if you take it literally*)
2**. TIE: Superman and Captain Marvel lift infinite book / Hulk and Ironclad shake infinite dimensions / Superman and Jaxon's fight releases enough energy to fix infinite timelines (if you take any of these literally*)
3. Superboy Prime destroys more than 3 universes with a punch
4. Flashes racing affects the multiverse**
5. Superman destroys Big-Bang-proof pyramid
6. Hulk reverses universe-destroying blast with a thunderclap
7. Hulk's punch lights up dark cosmos
8. Superman sneezes away solar system
9. Superman breaks star-moving chains
10. Superman moves giant star with his breath
11. Lobo pulls Pulsar Stargrave
12. Superboy throws mini neutron star
13. Wonder Woman moves the sun***
14. Hulk resists weight of a star
15. Hulk walks through Vector's blast
16. Superman bench presses weight of Earth for 5 days
17. Superman changes diamond into coal
18. Superman catches 2 ton weight* I don't
** Ranked lower because they are shared feats
*** This one could be interpreted as just moving the Earth by manipulating the sun's gravity, but she did have her lasso around the sun, so I'll treat it as moving the sun just because I don't want another long and pointless argument with abhi
I'm not counting the Green Lantern feats since they're done with energy constructs, not physical strength.
I'm also not sure about the Flash multiverse feat, as it's hard to tell if it's from their movement alone or from manipulating the speedforce, and we don't see that many details on what exactly is happening to the multiverse. But I included it.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah but I'd call that a huge inconsistency.
OK? Like we said, it is an outlier - inconsistent, whatever you want to term it.
But it still happened.
You don't seem to understand the difference between finite and infinite. Any finite force can be overcome by a stronger force. Infinity can't be overcome by anything that isn't itself infinite.
I do understand. My point is that your logic for disregarding it - because it is not consistent - is wrong, because, especially with the top dogs, their top 5 feats are all so far and away OTT they are essentially infinite.
You have moved the goalposts quite a bit, for a supposed 'impartial judge'.
First, you disregard it because it makes no sense, scientifically.
Then, you disregard it because it is inconsistent (but this thread is not about consistency, it is about high-end outlier feats).
Originally posted by abhilegend
All of those hulk feats have context 🤷🤷
Every feat has context. Or else it wouldn't be a feat.
And I'm listing them all even if I don't agree with them, or think they are outliers.
(I do think that most versions of Superman are stronger than the Hulk, if that's what you're worried about 😆 )
Originally posted by DarkSaint85OK? Like we said, it is an outlier - inconsistent, whatever you want to term it.
But it still happened.
I do understand. My point is that your logic for disregarding it - because it is not consistent - is wrong, because, especially with the top dogs, their top 5 feats are all so far and away OTT they are essentially infinite.
You have moved the goalposts quite a bit, for a supposed 'impartial judge'.
First, you disregard it because it makes no sense, scientifically.
Then, you disregard it because it is inconsistent (but this thread is not about consistency, it is about high-end outlier feats). [/B]
I disregard it for both of those reasons, and others. It simply strains credulity, even in superhero fiction, that any being constrained by a physical body could have literally infinite strength. But if you believe it's legit, I'm not stopping you. The important part is that we both agree it's not consistent with the characters' normal showings.
A lot of people do tell me that I am sometimes overly skeptical and my standards of evidence are too high when it comes to fictional feats and stuff (which also makes it ironic when people accuse me of inflating my claims and numbers). But I think it's better to err on the side of caution than to just extrapolate everything to its maximum interpretation willy-nilly. That is just my personal philosophy on this matter.
