Originally posted by Endless Mike
Every feat has context. Or else it wouldn't be a feat.And I'm listing them all even if I don't agree with them, or think they are outliers.
(I do think that most versions of Superman are stronger than the Hulk, if that's what you're worried about 😆 )
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I disregard it for both of those reasons, and others. It simply strains credulity, even in superhero fiction, that any being constrained by a physical body could have literally infinite strength. But if you believe it's legit, I'm not stopping you. The important part is that we both agree it's not consistent with the characters' normal showings.A lot of people do tell me that I am sometimes overly skeptical and my standards of evidence are too high when it comes to fictional feats and stuff (which also makes it ironic when people accuse me of inflating my claims and numbers). But I think it's better to err on the side of caution than to just extrapolate everything to its maximum interpretation willy-nilly. That is just my personal philosophy on this matter.
Except, as I've said, it's fiction. Wally can be faster than the Speed Force. Mxy is Superman's guardian angel, etc.
It's not that your burden of proof is high. It's that you're biased, and arbitrarily draw lines based on your personal beliefs, then dress it up as impartiality. Which is incredibly dishonest.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Every feat has context. Or else it wouldn't be a feat.And I'm listing them all even if I don't agree with them, or think they are outliers.
(I do think that most versions of Superman are stronger than the Hulk, if that's what you're worried about 😆 )
Like Dark Crawler's.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except, as I've said, it's fiction. Wally can be faster than the Speed Force. Mxy is Superman's guardian angel, etc.It's not that your burden of proof is high. It's that you're biased, and arbitrarily draw lines based on your personal beliefs, then dress it up as impartiality. Which is incredibly dishonest.
Everyone is biased to some extent, but I try to be as unbiased as possible. I try to apply the same standards to different characters and companies, not different ones. The issue just seems to be that you disagree with my standards. It's not like I'm saying that the Hulk's infinity feat is legit while Superman's isn't, or something like that.
Nah, the context is those universes you're talking about are pocket universes.Like Dark Crawler's.
I see nothing about the size of the dimension in that profile. Also, it was referred to as a universe and a cosmos in the comic. Even if it was only galaxy sized it would still fit in the same place on the list.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Everyone is biased to some extent, but I try to be as unbiased as possible. I try to apply the same standards to different characters and companies, not different ones. The issue just seems to be that you disagree with my standards. It's not like I'm saying that the Hulk's infinity feat is legit while Superman's isn't, or something like that.I see nothing about the size of the dimension in that profile. Also, it was referred to as a universe and a cosmos in the comic. Even if it was only galaxy sized it would still fit in the same place on the list.
Actually, my issue is with your dishonesty.
Is this thread about consistent showings? Or the best, as your OP states?
If it is about the best, what does it matter if they're repeated twice, three times, every week?
Then we come to your issue with infinity. That you can't understand how it can happen. Except I've given you an in universe explanation, if you wanted one - Mxy watches over him, and Superman will always win (Batman too, which you conveniently ignored). You accept reality warpers being able to do it, hence my use of those scans
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Everyone is biased to some extent, but I try to be as unbiased as possible. I try to apply the same standards to different characters and companies, not different ones. The issue just seems to be that you disagree with my standards. It's not like I'm saying that the Hulk's infinity feat is legit while Superman's isn't, or something like that.I see nothing about the size of the dimension in that profile. Also, it was referred to as a universe and a cosmos in the comic. Even if it was only galaxy sized it would still fit in the same place on the list.
Why don't you show us the galaxy it had? Or even a planet?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Actually, my issue is with your dishonesty.Is this thread about consistent showings? Or the best, as your OP states?
If it is about the best, what does it matter if they're repeated twice, three times, every week?
Then we come to your issue with infinity. That you can't understand how it can happen. Except I've given you an in universe explanation, if you wanted one - Mxy watches over him, and Superman will always win (Batman too, which you conveniently ignored). You accept reality warpers being able to do it, hence my use of those scans
Well I just don't want people who read this thread to get the wrong idea and think that all of these feats are consistent or reliable indicators of a character's performance.
And in-universe, Superman and Batman have lost a lot of times.
Wut? It's a pocket universe which had a few floating landmasses, that's it.Why don't you show us the galaxy it had? Or even a planet?
As the profile says nothing about its size, just that it's a dimension (and many dimensions in Marvel are the size of the 616 universe) and the comic repeatedly refers to it as both a 'universe' and a 'cosmos', I see no reason to assume it is any different in size to a standard universe.
Of course that doesn't mean I don't consider the feat an outlier (it certainly is). And FYI, the feat that I rank right above it (Superman destroying the Big Bang proof pyramid), is one that I don't consider to be an outlier. So you can chill in your quest to downplay everything a Marvel character has ever done, okay?
Superman punches his way out of Vandal's weaponized Hypertime never-ending time loop
I'm really curious about how this will be ranked
https://ibb.co/xz2GgLj
https://ibb.co/tJYbLqG
https://ibb.co/hRC5sV6
https://ibb.co/KWtTkRP
https://ibb.co/kJs05CW
https://ibb.co/wzRkjqQ
https://ibb.co/dQ7v5bx
https://ibb.co/k4TVtsr
https://ibb.co/ZLHqb3j
https://ibb.co/8zptJJd
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well I just don't want people who read this thread to get the wrong idea and think that all of these feats are consistent or reliable indicators of a character's performance.And in-universe, Superman and Batman have lost a lot of times.
As the profile says nothing about its size, just that it's a dimension (and many dimensions in Marvel are the size of the 616 universe) and the comic repeatedly refers to it as both a 'universe' and a 'cosmos', I see no reason to assume it is any different in size to a standard universe.
Of course that doesn't mean I don't consider the feat an outlier (it certainly is). And FYI, the feat that I rank right above it (Superman destroying the Big Bang proof pyramid), is one that I [b]don't
consider to be an outlier. So you can chill in your quest to downplay everything a Marvel character has ever done, okay? [/B]
But that's not what your thread asked for. You literally asked for their best.
And again, I note you ignoring the part of my post where I show you Mxy watching over him.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But that's not what your thread asked for. You literally asked for their best.And again, I note you ignoring the part of my post where I show you Mxy watching over him.
I didn't ignore it. It's just that I don't think that 'watching over him' equates to 'giving him literally infinite strength whenever he needs it.'
If it did, wouldn't that kind of ruin the entire point of his character? He never overcomes or accomplishes anything on his own, it's always Mxy? That's not what Superman is about.
BTW, if it makes you happy, I'll remove all the asterisks and caveats from the list. I just put them there to show my opinions on some of the feats, but if you like, I'll just post the list without them.
Now how about posting some more feats?
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I didn't ignore it. It's just that I don't think that 'watching over him' equates to 'giving him literally infinite strength whenever he needs it.'If it did, wouldn't that kind of ruin the entire point of his character? He never overcomes or accomplishes anything on his own, it's always Mxy? That's not what Superman is about.
BTW, if it makes you happy, I'll remove all the asterisks and caveats from the list. I just put them there to show my opinions on some of the feats, but if you like, I'll just post the list without them.
Now how about posting some more feats?
This is kinda why you should read more comics. In that storyline, Mxy tells of how he's been infusing Superman with 6D energy - on top of watching over him as his guardian angel - for years.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the 6D energy is what gives him infinite strength or whatever. I'm saying that there is precedence for a reality warping 5 D imp - the most powerful warper in DC, if not comics (I'll let others debate that) - literally giving energy to Superman, over the course of years.
Now if you need something to help you understand how Superman can do what he does, then you can use that.
But yes, I have a feat. Wally is faster than sound, faster than light, faster than thought, faster than the Speed Force, lol.
No amps, no infusions of energy. Just pure running.
Originally posted by Endless MikeAs I have pointed out, as Darksaint has pointed out [repeatedly] -- you're missing the point here, if your criteria [new, because of course] is that the feat is too high to justify them struggling in other comics, by the same criteria, you'd have to ignore most of the feats from Flash, Superman, and various other comic book characters, infinite or not. You're drawing self-serving imaginary lines where you clutch your pearls and close your eyes for the validity of the feats because it contradicts your pre-conceived notion of the characters, and not only that -- but it defeats the purpose of your own thread, where you want the best showings, even outliers. As I said -- call them outliers, fine. I'd agree with you, of course. But stop putting your own biases in front to dismiss the capabilities of certain characters.
There's a big difference between the first one and the other two. It's not just orders of magnitude - it's infinite orders of magnitude.I don't recall anyone saying the Flash had literally infinite speed though (unless you count abusing time travel).
Originally posted by Endless MikeAnd you're still having the feats on the list, and still without any kind of asteriks? Expected, but still.
Yes, I reread it. Incredible Hulk #126.
Well then, Mike..
Originally posted by Endless Mike1. By what criteria are you giving it galaxy sized?
I see nothing about the size of the dimension in that profile. Also, it was referred to as a universe and a cosmos in the comic. Even if it was only galaxy sized it would still fit in the same place on the list.
Because, from inside the comic, if you really wanted to look, it would have clued you in on the size of the dimension.
In fact, the dimension is obvious if you look at the way even you specified the feats:
To quote you, Mike:
"Hulk's punch lights up dark cosmos"
So tell me Mike, how long does it take the speed of light to illuminate a galaxy? Thousands of years? How about a Solar System? How about a ray of light just from Earth to the sun? 8 minutes? That's a lot, compared to it. Just from Earth to our nearest planet, it is 3 minutes. And that is STILL a lot more than the sequence here.
And yet, the cosmos is illuminated in moments.
Then, if that scan didn't clue you in -- what is depicted as being present in this small dimension is floating patches of land -- islands, as they're called.
And then we go to the destroying of these small island and, what do we see, Mike? We see a sonic beams which are deflected and destroy the patches of rock/islands that make up the dimension:
How long does it take for the sonic beam to destroy the lands in this dimension? Again, a few moments.
So tell me Mike, given the evidence, where exactly do you come up with Galaxy?
Where do you even come up with Solar System?
Hell -- there isn't even a sun, there's a few islands in a light-seconds [at best] void.
So tell me, Mike, what the hell does this feat have to do with this list?
Originally posted by Endless MikeAs the profile says nothing about its size, just that it's a dimension (and many dimensions in Marvel are the size of the 616 universe) and the comic repeatedly refers to it as both a 'universe' and a 'cosmos', I see no reason to assume it is any different in size to a standard universe.
So, where are all the planets and the stars?
Of course that doesn't mean I don't consider the feat an outlier (it certainly is). And FYI, the feat that I rank right above it (Superman destroying the Big Bang proof pyramid), is one that I [b]don't consider to be an outlier. So you can chill in your quest to downplay everything a Marvel character has ever done, okay? [/B]
Its not even a planetary feat, you know why? Because there were no planets in the pocket dimension, just a few floating islands.
Originally posted by Magnon
My map works if the space in x-direction is locally homeomorphic to real line R. Therefore, my map can be realized within the context of pretty much any physical theory that has ever existed or currently exists, including Newtonian mechanics, Special Relativity, General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Quantum Field Theory, or Quantum Field Theory on a curved spacetime, because all of those can feature a "continuous" x-coordinate.
Other modern models like loop quantum gravity generically relies on quantized spacetime, and while string theory doesn't generically rely on it it can be (and often is) quantized.
Originally posted by Magnon
In fact, if I were to deviate from this and thereby deviate from the standard in current theories, now *that* would require some additional justifications.
Originally posted by Magnon
Occam's razor is very rarely used to choose between a hypothesis that explains the evidence/observations and a hypothesis that refutes the evidence/observations. Such an application would typically be subjective, and it would prevent scientific progress. Neutrino oscillation? Nah, the observations must be flawed. Accelerating expansion of the universe? Bah, bogus. Muon magnetic moment anomaly? Must be a mistake in the experiment. The physicists work hard to explain the evidence when a subjectively simpler "explanation" would always be obtained just by refuting the evidence. But the latter is not how science or Occam's razor works.
You can use the same mental gymnastics to justify that there are literally "infinite grains of sand on a beach" because the narration suggested that it was infinite, and when confronted with the reality that it's a small beach you can start defining the grains of sand underneath the visible grains of sand to be infiniteismal in size.
Originally posted by Magnon
In my construction, the statement that the book has infinite number of pages is literally true: the domain of g has the cardinality of aleph-zero. There is no "figuratively" there. The label used for the final page is a completely different topic. If that confuses you, just replace the "infinity" symbol with the text "final page". That makes no difference with the cardinality of the domain of my function g, it remains aleph-zero regardless of the symbol used for that element.
Edit. Misread that quote. But my previous paragraph already addressed this.
Originally posted by Magnon
That's just an ill-justified extra condition imposed by you. In my construction, any page can be placed in the final page slot just fine.
Either way, there can't exist an sequential final page if the number of pages are truly infinite. Of course we know this not to be the case by the fact that the monkey grasped his final script in his hand as he died.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No amps, no infusions of energy. Just pure running.
Originally posted by Astner
Aside from general relativity and quantum field theory in curved spacetime, all of the fields you mentioned are done with ℝ-valued coordinates which are obviously homeomorphic to themselves, but they're also limited models when it comes to describing quantum spacetime, which is relevant here since we're dealing with small-scale displacements. The former are generically formulated with manifolds which are locally homeomorphic to ℝⁿ, but quantum field theory in curved spacetime can be (and often is) quantized.Other modern models like loop quantum gravity generically relies on quantized spacetime, and while string theory doesn't generically rely on quantized spacetime it can be quantized.
It's not a matter of justification. Any assumption that results in a loss of generality puts it at a disadvantage as a theory.
What are you talking about? The choice is between a figurative and literal interpretation of infinity. One interpretation is simple the other one requires a myraid of conjectured excuses.
You can use the same mental gymnastics to justify that there are literally "infinite grains of sand on a beach" because the narration suggested that it was infinite, and when confronted with the reality that it's a small beach you can start defining the grains of sand underneath the visible grains of sand to be infiniteismal in size.
This has nothing to do with what I said. I'm not even sure why you decided to keep it after the edit.
Why would requiring that the pages have to be in order ill-justified? The fact that there's a final chapter pressuposes an order.
Either way, there can't exist an sequential final page if the number of pages are truly infinite. Of course we know this not to be the case by the fact that the monkey grasped his final script in his hand as he died.
With no proof that it's the same monkey.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With no proof that it's the same monkey.
In your head-canon there might be a second monkey, but I'm only interested in offical canon.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
No, this feat was performed in Flash Forward Issue #5Wally became Manhattan was in Flash Forward Issue #6