Abortion

Started by The Omega787 pages

Adam_Poe> Excellent post… as always.

FE> I understand your point of view. You hold life as sacred – human life that is. And that is your right. It is also your right to view abortion is just wrong.
But can you AT LEAST understand AND accept that not everyone believes as you do, and holds the views that you do?

RaventheOnly> Well, your mum sounds cold-hearted. Why on EARTH tell you, that you were unwanted?
Those of us who are born, and do well in life, are HAPPY with life. I don’t know about you, but I’m neither suicidal nor wanting to die anywhere in the near-future.
But the mere FACT that people try to kill themselves should show us all, that not ALL lives are worth living and should be protected by zealots who’re blind to the fact, that some people are serious when they say “I wish I’d never been born.”

Myth>” I don't think people should be punished at this moment for abortions because they don't understand that it is morally wrong.”
You think it is morally wrong. Who gave YOU monopoly on the truth?

Myaktrustsnoone> Interesting.
Sex->accident->Pregnancy-> Abortion->Murder->Against the law->Jail
Why don’t you just stick people in jail for having sex.
(Listens to sex-crime by Eurythmics.)

” 83% of rape cases are because the girl led a guy on sexually, was under the influence, ect.”
Yes! You are one of those impotent suckers who can’t get laid, and therefore believes that girls are ASKING to get raped.
Look – newsflash – I can flirt with a guy as MUCH as I like when I like it – it does NOT give him the right to rape me.
And if I’m drunk, then what? It’s OKAY to get raped because I have a beer?

baahahahaha "one of those impotent suckers who can't get laid" 😆 Holy Christ Chex! That was hilarious.

Oh Lordy, Omega's back!! 😂

Look – newsflash – I can flirt with a guy as MUCH as I like when I like it – it does NOT give him the right to rape me.
And if I’m drunk, then what? It’s OKAY to get raped because I have a beer?

Most awesome, oh yes ✅

Originally posted by The Omega
Evy_O> I believe you. Even without links. And that’s simply because you present your case in a mature and sensible manner.
I find the fact that some scientists claim a foetus isn’t living VERY interesting. Can you perhaps give me more info on that? How do these scientists DEFINE life.

oh why thank you 😊

yeah, I think it's interesting too (it even has sub-subjects but they are irrelevant to the current subject, nevertheless really interesting 😄), and I'll ask about that... will get back to you on Friday 🙂

Originally posted by The Omega

Myth>” I don't think people should be punished at this moment for abortions because they don't understand that it is morally wrong.”
You think it is morally wrong. Who gave YOU monopoly on the truth?

Let me put it this way. Do you believe that killing is morally wrong? I sure hope you do. But then again, who are you to have a monopoly on this truth? Anyway, if you believe that a fetus is alive, then abortion is murder, and hence, morally wrong.

You are saying that it is not morally wrong because it is not killing life. If it weren't life, I would agree that it wasn't morally wrong. But it is life. Stem cell research is tests on 'living tissue' (fetal tissue/transplant research in finding disease cures rely upon living tissue). The scientists that do this stuff are pro-choice yet they acknowledge it as living tissue themselves. How can living tissue come from something that is not life? And how can a living thing that is not human become human? It can't. Therefore, it IS human.

For those who argue "my body, my choice," think about this: How can the mother be simultaneously male and female? How can the mother have two blood types? How can the mother be two races? Why are the baby's cell chromosomes distinct from the mother? How is it that one can die and not the other?

With that last part, many of you say that it is not alive until birth. Then why is it that a mother can die, and the baby is still alive insider her? Obviously life comes before birth if the mother is dead and the baby inside her is still kicking.

Originally posted by Myth
Let me put it this way. Do you believe that killing is morally wrong? I sure hope you do. But then again, who are you to have a monopoly on this truth? Anyway, if you believe that a fetus is alive, then abortion is murder, and hence, morally wrong.

You are saying that it is not morally wrong because it is not killing life. If it weren't life, I would agree that it wasn't morally wrong. But it is life. Stem cell research is tests on 'living tissue' (fetal tissue/transplant research in finding disease cures rely upon living tissue). The scientists that do this stuff are pro-choice yet they acknowledge it as living tissue themselves. How can living tissue come from something that is not life? And how can a living thing that is not human become human? It can't. Therefore, it IS human.

For those who argue "my body, my choice," think about this: How can the mother be simultaneously male and female? How can the mother have two blood types? How can the mother be two races? Why are the baby's cell chromosomes distinct from the mother? How is it that one can die and not the other?

With that last part, many of you say that it is not alive until birth. Then why is it that a mother can die, and the baby is still alive insider her? Obviously life comes before birth if the mother is dead and the baby inside her is still kicking.

kill v. To terminate life.

mur·der n. The unjust or unwarranted termination life.

Killing is not wrong. In fact, it is often essential to terminate the lives of some things in order to sustain the lives of others. This is true of harvesting crops, butchering livestock, and even terminating a pregnancy when it threatens the health of the mother.

No one is arguing that a fetus is non-living. However, just because cellular life is present, it does not follow from that a fetus is a life. See my previous post on the matter:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
To determine when life begins, let us consider when life ends. Clinical death is the complete and irreversible cessation of hearbeat and brain activity but it is not the end of the life cycle. Long after clinical death occurs, cells divide and hair and nails continue to grow. Eventhough cellular life is present, the person is clearly not living. This standard is also used to determine when life begins. For if life exists when cellular life is present, then the clinically dead would also be considered alive.

Furthermore, no one is arguing that a fetus is not human. Anything containing human DNA is human. This includes everything from fetuses to fingernail clippings.

Regarding the issue of choice, is it morally incumbent on a woman to accede to a forced pregnancy? Should the government be involved in forcing women to remain pregnant? I refer you to the argument I presented earlier that every pro-life person in this thread has failed to address:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I propose, then, that we grant that the fetus is a person from the moment of conception. How does the argument go from here? Something like this, I take it. Every person has a right to life. So the fetus has a right to life. No doubt the mother has a right to decide what shall happen in and to her body; everyone would grant that. But surely a person's right to life is stronger and more stringent than the mother's right to decide what happens in and to her body, and so outweighs it. So the fetus may not be killed; an abortion may not be performed.

It sounds plausible. But now let me ask you to imagine this. You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, "Look, we're sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you—we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist now is plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it's only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.

Is it morally incumbent on you to accede to this situation? No doubt it would be very nice of you if you did, a great kindness. But do you have to accede to it? What if it were not nine months, but nine years? Or longer still? What if the director of the hospital says, "Tough luck, I agree, but you've now got to stay in bed, with the violinist plugged into you, for the rest of your life. Because remember this. All persons have a right to life, and violinists are persons. Granted you have a right to decide what happens in and to your body, but a person's right to life outweighs your right to decide what happens in and to your body. So you cannot ever be unplugged from him." I imagine you would regard this as outrageous, which suggests that something really is wrong with that plausible-sounding argument I mentioned a moment ago.

God damn it!
too many smart people!

Originally posted by The Omega
Adam_Poe> Excellent post… as always.

FE> I understand your point of view. You hold life as sacred – human life that is. And that is your right. It is also your right to view abortion is just wrong.
But can you AT LEAST understand AND accept that not everyone believes as you do, and holds the views that you do?

RaventheOnly> Well, your mum sounds cold-hearted. Why on EARTH tell you, that you were unwanted?
Those of us who are born, and do well in life, are HAPPY with life. I don’t know about you, but I’m neither suicidal nor wanting to die anywhere in the near-future.
But the mere FACT that people try to kill themselves should show us all, that not ALL lives are worth living and should be protected by zealots who’re blind to the fact, that some people are serious when they say “I wish I’d never been born.”

Myth>” I don't think people should be punished at this moment for abortions because they don't understand that it is morally wrong.”
You think it is morally wrong. Who gave YOU monopoly on the truth?

Myaktrustsnoone> Interesting.
Sex->accident->Pregnancy-> Abortion->Murder->Against the law->Jail
Why don’t you just stick people in jail for having sex.
(Listens to sex-crime by Eurythmics.)

” 83% of rape cases are because the girl led a guy on sexually, was under the influence, ect.”
Yes! You are one of those impotent suckers who can’t get laid, and therefore believes that girls are ASKING to get raped.
Look – newsflash – I can flirt with a guy as MUCH as I like when I like it – it does NOT give him the right to rape me.
And if I’m drunk, then what? It’s OKAY to get raped because I have a beer?

Well my mother tries to avoid lying to me 😐 which is not grounds for you to try and insult me. Only those who do not consider a life worth anything can say that some people basicaly do not deserve life. You did not address my point and rather tried to sound smart and avoid it by attacking me.... totally useless. What a person decides when they have had a taste of thier life is thier own. To deny a person a life is the ultimate denial. Who is anyone to say their life will be miserable?

When I'm talking about killing, I'm talking about killing humans and you unlike many people, at least admit that a fetus is human. I'm glad you admit this but it also disturbs me even more that you still approve abortion. Btw: People have argued that the fetus is non-living and that the fetus is not human.

" even terminating a pregnancy when it threatens the health of the mother."
I agree with you here (some what). I have stated that the only time I side with abortion is when their is substancial(sp?) proof that the possibility of the mother dying is great. I do not approve of abortion as a cop-out because somebody doesn't want it or because they feel it is better because they can't give it a good life (let it grow and decide for itself later). How often do you hear people 'seriously' say, "I wish I wasn't born"?

Lastly, I will answer your violinist question, I just haven't seen it before. This is simple. It is not their responsibility. The baby inside a mother is. She had sex while knowing the risks involved. The person with the violinist had nothing to do with the violinist and therefore it is not their responsibility. The person who gets pregnant, took part in the creation of the baby.

Most mothers, at least the ones with actual love would gladly sacrifice thier life for the child in thier womb if it had a chance at life. 😐

^^Stupidest comment I've heard all week^^

Congratulations!

Originally posted by RaventheOnly
Most mothers, at least the ones with actual love would gladly sacrifice thier life for the child in thier womb if it had a chance at life. 😐

Some may, but that's not for anyone but them to decide.

Originally posted by RaventheOnly
Most mothers, at least the ones with actual love would gladly sacrifice thier life for the child in thier womb if it had a chance at life. 😐

Those 14 year-olds sure like to die. 🙂

Those 14 year olds were irresponsible. If there is a serious chance of death for the mother, than I think it is ok. Other than that 😬

Omega: Of course we all have diff views on here thats what KMC is about, so not sure what you mean by saying that in your post.

The main problem with those 14-year-olds was not that they were being irresponsible, but that they were uninformed and uneducated.

If anti-abortionists spent 1/2 of the time and money that they spend on trying to deprive a woman of her right to choose on sex education, the number of abortions in america would plummet.

Furthermore, when asked, the majority of women who had an abortion say "I did it because I wasn't prepared to support a child economically. And, I wish I had known the risks beforehand." This is why abortion rates were decreasing under Clinton (look it up, but not from a partisan source), and now increasing under Bush. It's all about the economy and education.

I completely agree that sex education should be increased to avoid accidental pregnancies.. But no matter how well the economy thrives, there will still be poor people, and being poor is no excuse to kill a fetus.

Originally posted by myaktrustsnoone
Abortion=Murder=Against the law=Jail

Thats all i have to say, becase you choose to have sex then you should deal with the results.

83% of rape cases are because the girl led a guy on sexually, was under the influence, ect.

therefor rape is pretty much ruled out.

I cannot believe you posted that. If I could, I would slap you across the face right now. I know someone who was raped, and guess what? She WASN'T leading the guy on, and she WASN'T drunk. And even if the woman did lead the guy on or was drunk, that's NO excuse whatsoever.

Omega, nice to see you back 🙂

Tpt -- we NEED more smart people in here.

Originally posted by Myth
I completely agree that sex education should be increased to avoid accidental pregnancies.. But no matter how well the economy thrives, there will still be poor people, and being poor is no excuse to kill a fetus.

It is an excuse when you have 3 other children and by having a 4th you will not be able to provide for 4 children but you can just afford to support 3.

Well i think we all have heard the story about
"Little mary going to a party and drinking then not being able to control her sexual actions ( yes alocohol is a proven sex stimulant ) and then having sex and the next day saying she was raped"... i dont that is getting raped to me, i think she was ignorant for not listening to her mother.

HATExEDGE