Abortion

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But my question is...if you think something is WRONG that has nothing to do with you...that affects you in no way...then what right to you have to force a change upon it?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

I understand what you mean, but it doesn't change my point of view. I do beleive Abortion is wrong, but i also beleive taking away Choice is wrong. That is why i am pro choice, and no pro life.

You cannot TRULY compare Abortion to things like murder or rape, which are indefinately wrong. Abortion is only wrong in my opinion....does that mean i have to go turning my opinion into law?

If something is truly wrong (as you believe abortion is), then choice must be infringed upon. If you believe murder is wrong, then you must punish a murderer for making the choice to murder.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

I assume that you think its reasonable that Ultra Conservatives fight to ban gay marriage, and that some of them even fight to ban gay sex in general.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

It depends what you mean by "delving a bit deeper"

I feel I explained my stance as extensive as i possibly could.

Originally posted by LighterFluid
If something is truly wrong (as you believe abortion is), then choice must be infringed upon. If you believe murder is wrong, then you must punish a murderer for making the choice to murder.

Then in effect, you are also saying that a woman should be punished for having an abortion, if someone believes it is wrong. I believe abortion is wrong myself, but I am certainly not going to punish any woman who has one. All I can do is disagree.

No, in effect I am saying that if one believes that an action is truly wrong, then one should also believe in the infringement upon choice to prevent/punish that action.

Originally posted by LighterFluid
No, in effect I am saying that if one believes that an action is truly wrong, then one should also believe in the infringement upon choice to prevent/punish that action.

Okay, so if we believe murder is wrong, we should support anyone who tries to prevent it? Is that what you mean? 😕

Yes, although by "prevention", I was referring to punishment as a deterent.

Originally posted by LighterFluid
Yes, although by "prevention", I was referring to punishment as a deterent.

But how can we punish women for aborting, even if believe that abortion is wrong?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
In terms of Abortion, I do not recall claiming the desire to infringe on a woman's choice.

In terms of illegal drug use, i still do not recall claiming the desire to infringe on the person's choice.

I simply think drug taking is more immoral than having an abortion.

You think drinking beer is worse than terminating a foetus? You are an odd, odd man.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Making others sad?🤨

When you screw up your own mind you already become a [b]dangerous person. Therefore you are danger to other people ! What part of that don't you understand?[/b]

No, you don't. That's ridiculous hype and bullshit, because it doesn't apply to everyone. The media want you to believe that if you take drugs you'll ruin everything and that's just not the case. You're not a danger to others just because you smoke pot.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
My Rediculous point of view...and then you wondor why I keep defending it....what do you find so rediculous about it, I'd like to know?

I somehow doubt you even understand my point of view, but let's see...what is my point of view AC?

You seem to be against abortion as a concept, but not willing to take action against it, which is fine. Then I don't get why you keep on about it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1)[b]Debateable you say?...as are your opinions of absolutivity that abortion lacks morality period. Well..this IS a DEBATE...so i dont see what the problem is exactly. If you wish to debate against my opinion, I'd be happy to defend it once again..and again...and for as long as you keep critisizing it. 😉[/b]

You're not making any sense though, Urizen. You have such a warped, upside-down and back to front version of morality that it's difficult.

"I think drug taking is more immoral than abortion.". So as I said, you act like abortion is so immoral, only to claim that drinking beer (a drug), is worse.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What is the actual problem in your understanding? Is your mind that small, or that black/white in mentality that you could not comprehend such a stance?

You don't have some ultra smart. clever stance. You have a contradictory, flip flop stance that makes hardly any logical sense. You'll keep one stance for a while, then say something that contradicts it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And still...let me correct you....

1) I am personally against Abortion. I feel it is an immoral act, yes. Not due to religious ideals or any other influences. It goes against my own moral of what is right and wrong.

2) No I do not make moves to stop it. I will never have to deal with the issue myself. I am not a woman, i will never be pregnant, and i don't even plan to have my own children. [b]WHY should I make moves to stop it?🤨

3) In cases where the foetus threatens the mother's life, an Abortion is necessary. Yes. [/B]

Exactly, see? You think abortion is totally immoral, yet you condone it's use. You can't think it's that bad if there are cases where you allow it.

-AC

Originally posted by autumn dreams
But how can we punish women for aborting, even if believe that abortion is wrong?

You know, I've realized that your logic is truly infallible. I've also decided that I don't believe murder is wrong. I'm going to go out and murder somebody now - I expect that I won't be prosecuted. After all, how could the public possibly prosecute me? I don't believe murder is wrong! Who are they to tell me that I can't go out and commit murders whenever I feel like it? Next up: several acts of mass genocide WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 😆 🤣 💃 😱 /crazy

Originally posted by LighterFluid
Who says that every punishment has to be an eye for an eye?

You do Whob.

Originally posted by LighterFluid
I'll assume that you meant "even if [B]they don't believe that abortion is wrong", as I think that's what you were trying to say. If it wasn't please correct me.[/B]

You missed my point completley.

Originally posted by LighterFluid
You know, I've realized that your logic is truly infallible. I've also decided that I don't believe murder is wrong. I'm going to go out and murder somebody now - I expect that I won't be prosecuted. After all, how could the public possibly prosecute me? I don't believe murder is wrong! Who are they to tell me that I can't go out and commit murders whenever I feel like it? Next up: several acts of mass genocide WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE 😆 🤣 💃 😱 /crazy

*rolls eyes* You don't get it, do you? Read back a few pages and see what we were discussing, then maybe you'll have an understanding of what I actually mean.

Originally posted by autumn dreams
But how can we punish women for aborting, even if believe that abortion is wrong?

I get what LighterFluid's saying, so I'll try to explain.

There is a difference between something you disapprove of, and what you believe is truly wrong.

I don't believe that littering is good. I don't think that jaywalking is good. Are there punishments? Not really, it's discouraged, but not really punished.

Those are minor infringements: things that do not really matter in the grand scheme of things.

However, things such as killing, stealing, rape, etc. are serious crimes (to the standard set of morals present in people). They are supposed to be punished harshly.

To many pro-life advocates, aborting a foetus is the equivalent of killing a child. Thus, it is a serious crime to have an abortion.

Those who disagree are arguing as to why a) it is not the equivalent of killing a living person or b) that perhaps there are instances where abortion is necessary, just as killing is sometimes "necessary".

The problem with Lord Urizen's logic is that he is against something, and stays so firm on the point that abortion is really wrong, but feels he shouldn't be against it. To believe something is truly wrong, and to repeat it over and over and over and over and over and over again in this thread gives the impression that he is REALLY against it. Yet he maintains that he has no right to be against it...

LF's previous post kinda went over your head. It's kind of an extension of Lord Urizen's flawed logic. I'll make mine more clear:

Hmm, I choose to kill those twenty people over there. Is it wrong? Well, the general public may think so, but since I choose to, and believe that it's right, what gives the populace the right to infringe upon my right to choose?

But here's the thing: if you believe something's wrong, you don't have to actively punish people. (Really, don't go bombing abortion clinics, please) However, you can take a stand; you can tell people why you think it's wrong; you can can vote for politicians who share your view. But DON'T claim that you are okay with it. That's just hypocritical.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You think drinking beer is worse than terminating a foetus? You are an odd, odd man.

Drinking Beer worse than terminating a foetus? No. I do not think drinking a can or even a six pack of beer is worse.

I think drowning yourself in Alcoholism is worse than having an Abortion. "Why do you think this? You're not making any sense ! My simple mind is scrambling!!! NOo0o0o!!!!!"-WELL my freind, I think this because drowning yourself in Alcoholism destroys not only yourself, but families peace, your relationships with other people, AND not to mention makes you a more dangerous person.

Abortion only harms the foetus, which is unaware of the fact that it's even being harmed in the first place. It also may emotionally take a toll on the mother, and possibly the father...but that's usually as far as the actual damage goes.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, you don't. That's ridiculous hype and bullshit, because it doesn't apply to everyone. The media want you to believe that if you take drugs you'll ruin everything and that's just not the case. You're not a danger to others just because you smoke pot.

Are you on crack? 🤨 If you persistantly take strong drugs, you are INDEED ruining your mind and body. You are destroying your own logic, mentality, etc. when you go overboard on an addiction, and therefore become a danger to other people.

What fantasy world do you live in where Drugs are not harmful? 😆

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You seem to be against abortion as a concept, but not willing to take action against it, which is fine. Then I don't get why you keep on about it.

I "keep on" about it because you and many others keep challenging it 😉

I welcome you to do so though. I have no complaints, I only enjoy the challenge of debate AC.

And no, i am not against Abortion as a concept. I am not against the WORD abortion or the idea of Abortion. I am personally against the action, but not to the point where I would ban it entirely and take away women's rights in that field.

What black and white mentality are you trying to enforce on me?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You're not making any sense though, Urizen. You have such a warped, upside-down and back to front version of morality that it's difficult.

"I think drug taking is more immoral than abortion.". So as I said, you act like abortion is so immoral, only to claim that drinking beer (a drug), is worse.

1) I think it only lacks sense to a person whose mind is so black and white, and not flexible enough to comprehend.

2) Read statement 1, i do not think "drinking beer" is worse than having an abortion.

3) I don't act like abortion is so immoral...I think it, and I say it as objectively as possible. And so what I i do think it's immoral? I keep explaining why i think so, yet ur trying to label me a hypocrit because i wouldnt take the choice away from the woman.

NICE TRY 👇 ❌ But your argument is desperate and weak. You do not have to take steps to ban something, just because you don't agree with it.

Not all heterosexists take measures to suppress gay civil rights...so why would I go to the extreme to ban abortion? OH wait...cuz im not that extreme...im a moderate liberal, not an extremist conservative. 🙄

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't have some ultra smart. clever stance. You have a contradictory, flip flop stance that makes hardly any logical sense. You'll keep one stance for a while, then say something that contradicts it.

AND YOU DO? You contradicted yourself recently. First you go saying "Abortion lacks morality" "its all up to the woman, i dont care " now you're saying "A woman who has repeated abortions is an idiot"....

Stop telling me to "make up my mind" when you should be making up your own 😉

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Exactly, see? You think abortion is totally immoral, yet you condone it's use. You can't think it's that bad if there are cases where you allow it.

-AC

1) Yes you can think something is bad, but still allow it. You can think being Gay is a sin, but not feel the absolute need to ban civil rights actions, if you also beleive in Free Will.

Ergo....I do think Abortion is immoral...yes...but i also think its MORE IMMORAL to take away a woman's choice, and FORCE her to bear the PAIN of child birth.

What hypocrisy do you see? there's NONE to see....stop making a desperate argument by attempting to label me a hypocrit.....you're better than that. Argue against my opinion if you wish, argue against my stance all you want....

But to suggest that i should have a black and white stance on the matter? Screw that...that's not me. 😉

Originally posted by crazylozer
I get what LighterFluid's saying, so I'll try to explain.

There is a difference between something you disapprove of, and what you believe is truly wrong.

I don't believe that littering is good. I don't think that jaywalking is good. Are there punishments? Not really, it's discouraged, but not really punished.

Those are minor infringements: things that do not really matter in the grand scheme of things.

However, things such as killing, stealing, rape, etc. are serious crimes (to the standard set of morals present in people). They are supposed to be punished harshly.

To many pro-life advocates, aborting a foetus is the equivalent of killing a child. Thus, it is a serious crime to have an abortion.

Those who disagree are arguing as to why a) it is not the equivalent of killing a living person or b) that perhaps there are instances where abortion is necessary, just as killing is sometimes "necessary".

The problem with Lord Urizen's logic is that he is against something, and stays so firm on the point that abortion is really wrong, but feels he shouldn't be against it. To believe something is truly wrong, and to repeat it over and over and over and over and over and over again in this thread gives the impression that he is REALLY against it. Yet he maintains that he has no right to be against it...

LF's previous post kinda went over your head. It's kind of an extension of Lord Urizen's flawed logic. I'll make mine more clear:

Hmm, I choose to kill those twenty people over there. Is it wrong? Well, the general public may think so, but since I choose to, and believe that it's right, what gives the populace the right to infringe upon my right to choose?

But here's the thing: if you believe something's wrong, you don't have to actively punish people. (Really, don't go bombing abortion clinics, please) However, you can take a stand; you can tell people why you think it's wrong; you can can vote for politicians who share your view. But DON'T claim that you are okay with it. That's just hypocritical.

WRONG 👇

1) I am personally against Abortion. Not politically against it.

2) I DO NOT EQUATE Abortion with things like murder, rape, or drug selling/taking.

3) I never said i was "okay" with Abortion. I am not. I just don't think I have the right to BAN it.....I am not a woman, i will never have to deal with this situation myself, not directly.

I can be against it ALL I WANT, i can think it's the worst thing possible If i really felt that way (which i dont)

But I am not against it SO MUCH that I feel I have the right to take initiative and ban it.

I repeat it over and over cuz you guys keep challenging my stance over and over,

There is no hypocrisy here, nice try but NO. You guys cannot successfully argue against my actual STANCE or OPINION, so in a desperate attempt to devalidify my argument, you TRY to label me a hypocrit. Stop being desperate. 😉

Sorry to post again so quickly, but I noticed the used of "homosexuality is a sin" as an example of why believing something is wrong whouldn't be enforced.

Does homosexuality harm anyone? No.

Christianity is against homosexuals, but they also believe that gay people will be punished once they die. As far as I can tell, they are only trying to save people from eternal torment. I don't believe in it, but it may or may not be true. Also according to the Church, God dictates what is right and wrong, so there can be no ambiguity.

But do those against homosexuality punish those who are? No.

This is a bad example, be quiet.

Originally posted by crazylozer
Sorry to post again so quickly, but I noticed the used of "homosexuality is a sin" as an example of why believing something is wrong whouldn't be enforced.

Does homosexuality harm anyone? No.

Christianity is against homosexuals, but they also believe that gay people will be punished once they die. As far as I can tell, they are only trying to save people from eternal torment. I don't believe in it, but it may or may not be true. Also according to the Church, God dictates what is right and wrong, so there can be no ambiguity.

But do those against homosexuality punish those who are? No.

This is a bad example, be quiet.

How deluded are you?🤨

There are many conservative Christians who protest highly against the progression of gay civil rights.

There are Conservative Christians and Muslims who pull up signs saying "God hate ****"

Does homosexuality harm anyone? I agree that it doesn't, but ASK SAM Z, ask many of the conservatives on this forum, and they will ARGUE that Homosexuality harms people (for stupid reasons)

Abortion only harms the foetus...what is your point?

Crazylover, again another desperate attempt to weaken my argument has failed. 👇

Try AGAIN

Urizen, I guess your opponent's "Losing at something, somewhere" location would be accurate!

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How deluded are you?🤨

There are many conservative Christians who protest highly against the progression of gay civil rights.

There are Conservative Christians and Muslims who pull up signs saying "God hate ****"

Does homosexuality harm anyone? I agree that it doesn't, but ASK SAM Z, ask many of the conservatives on this forum, and they will ARGUE that Homosexuality harms people (for stupid reasons)

Abortion only harms the foetus...what is your point?

Crazylover, again another desperate attempt to weaken my argument has failed. 👇

[b]Try AGAIN [/B]

Again, my point flies right over your head. Are there laws made to punish homosexuals? No. When a gay couple is married, do they get thrown in jail? No.

And here's the idea: pro-lifers claim that the foetus is a living person, thus it harms them. Get it yet?

I also seem to lack confidence in your reading abilities when you consistently are unable to get my screenname correct.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Drinking Beer worse than terminating a foetus? No. I do not think drinking a can or even a six pack of beer is worse.

You stated that drug taking was worse. Next time be specific.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I think drowning yourself in Alcoholism is worse than having an Abortion. "Why do you think this? You're not making any sense ! My simple mind is scrambling!!! NOo0o0o!!!!!"-[b]WELL my freind, I think this because drowning yourself in Alcoholism destroys not only yourself, but families peace, your relationships with other people, AND not to mention makes you a more dangerous person.[/b]

This is all opinion, but if that's what you meant, then fine. However, not all instances of drug use (there's a difference between drug users and drug abusers) end or continue that way.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Abortion only harms the foetus, which is unaware of the fact that it's even being harmed in the first place. It also may emotionally take a toll on the mother, and possibly the father...but that's usually as far as the actual damage goes.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Are you on crack? 🤨 If you [b]persistantly take strong drugs, you are INDEED ruining your mind and body. You are destroying your own logic, mentality, etc. when you go overboard on an addiction, and therefore become a danger to other people.[/b]

No, that's your opinion. I know people who have used and continue to use recreational drugs, they're perfectly fine. Any effects they have suffered have taken no toll, and if they have, then it's not on a level that has wrecked them. So your argument falls flat.

Of course drugs like heroin are immediately more dangerous, but drugs like mushrooms and pot, some would argue the benefits outweigh the negatives, and in the case of pot, that's fact.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What fantasy world do you live in where Drugs are not harmful? 😆

I don't live in a world where drugs aren't harmful, I just live in a world where logic reigns, because by legalising all drugs you more or less render dealers obsolete, and they are the biggest problem. Also, you can keep a record of who has and has not taken drugs. You don't have the right to tell me not to take a substance into my body, nobody does.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I "keep on" about it because you and many others keep challenging it 😉

Then start refuting things or you're just making it more pointless.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I welcome you to do so though. I have no complaints, I only enjoy the challenge of debate AC.

You can call it a challenge if you wish.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And no, i am not against Abortion as a concept. I am not against the WORD abortion or the idea of Abortion. I am personally against the action, but not to the point where I would ban it entirely and take away women's rights in that field.

Do you honestly not see the fall of your logic there? "I'm not against the idea, or the concept, or the word, just it happening.". What? So if abortion didn't exist, and I came up with the idea of it, you'd say "I have nothing against that."?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) I think it only lacks sense to a person whose mind is so black and white, and not flexible enough to comprehend.

2) Read statement 1, i do not think "drinking beer" is worse than having an abortion.

1) I comprehend it, it's just incredibly illogical, everyone says so, and you're the only person who truly gets it.

2) You said drug taking.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
3) I don't act like abortion is so immoral...I think it, and I say it as objectively as possible. And so what I i do think it's immoral? I keep explaining why i think so, yet ur trying to label me a [b]hypocrit because i wouldnt take the choice away from the woman.[/b]

I'm not, I'm saying that essentially I think you're just scared to admit you're for abortion, because everything you say points to that. You seemingly just cover up by saying "Oh, but I don't like it.".

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
NICE TRY 👇 ❌ But your argument is desperate and weak. You do not have to take steps to ban something, just because you don't agree with it.

No, you don't, you're right. However, you sit there actually saying you're not against it, by concept or idea. So I honestly don't see how you think you're against abortion, you're not, you just don't like it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not all heterosexists take measures to suppress gay civil rights...so why would I go to the extreme to ban abortion? OH wait...cuz im not that extreme...im a moderate liberal, not an extremist conservative. 🙄

See above.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
AND YOU DO? You contradicted yourself recently. First you go saying "Abortion lacks morality" "its all up to the woman, i dont care " now you're saying "A woman who has repeated abortions is an idiot"....

That's not contradictory is it? No. I'm not taking away her choice and I NEVER said a woman who has repeat abortions is an idiot, not once. I said a woman who uses it frivolously as birth control, is an idiot. I'd never take her choice away though. I don't LIKE that idea, but I'm not against it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Stop telling me to "make up my mind" when you should be making up your own 😉

You're the one who confuses people's posts and just now tried to pin something on me that I never said.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Yes you can think something is bad, but still allow it. You can think being Gay is a sin, but not feel the absolute need to ban civil rights actions, if you also beleive in Free Will.

Then that's not liking abortion, not being against it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ergo....I do think Abortion is immoral...yes...but i also think its MORE IMMORAL to take away a woman's choice, and FORCE her to bear the PAIN of child birth.

What hypocrisy do you see? there's NONE to see....stop making a desperate argument by attempting to label me a hypocrit.....you're better than that. Argue against my opinion if you wish, argue against my stance all you want....

But to suggest that i should have a black and white stance on the matter? Screw that...that's not me. 😉

You seem to be putting me in a position where I'm saying things, just so you can retort like a hero, despite me never saying them.

You are mislabelling your own stance.

-AC

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

1) I am personally [b]against Abortion. Not politically against it.

[/B]

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

3) I never said i was "okay" with Abortion. I am not. I just don't think I have the right to [b]BAN it.....I am not a woman, i will never have to deal with this situation myself, not directly.

I can be against it ALL I WANT, i can think it's the worst thing possible If i really felt that way (which i dont)

But I am not against it SO MUCH that I feel I have the right to take initiative and ban it.
[/B]

I live in a black and white world as far as right and wrong goes. Wrong things should be punished, right things should be allowed. I believe that there are different degrees of immorality, though and that punishments should be scaled according to how immoral an action is.

You are a hypocrite because you think that abortion is wrong, but you treat it as if it was right (you don't think that any punishment should be given, not even a small one).

P.S. I am not Whob, Capt_Fantastic

^^You stole my example, ya dirty rat 😠

j/k

I'll do my own elaboration on it.

Let's say I don't believe that jay-walking is wrong. Let's say that Mr. Apple does.

Now Mr.Apple argues that jay-walking endangers not only my life, but the life of drivers. I disagree, because I think that if everyone's reflexes are quick enough, everything will be fine. Then Mr.Apple goes around and argues for a law against jay-walking in a Legislature. He proves conclusively that jay-walking is hazardous and can cause serious injuries to people.

Now abortion is different. There is no conclusive proof to say that abortion will harm anyone seriously. Therefore, a law may or may not be passed in different regions of the world, depending on whether or not the judge believes that abortion is wrong. The only way to keep abortion legal would be to attempt to prove, if not with facts then with logic and rhetoric, that abortion is not wrong. The way to outlaw abortion would be the other way, obviously.

But what you said earlier, Lord Urizen, is that you think that abortion is "the killing of an unborn child", "killing for convenience". Those are very strong words that show that you indeed think that abortion should be outlawed; "killing" has a connotation that is highly negative in terms of morality, and it fits your phrases, because you think that abortion is indeed wrong. But unless you think that killing is less wrong than taking away choice, then we should be allowed to kill anything, right? I can go out and shoot deer, dogs and cats as much as I please, because they are not human, just as a foetus isn't.

You're sitting on the fence, trying to seem like you're the champion of justice: defending a person's right to choose while simultaneously feeling great empathy towards unborn babies, and all the while claiming that it's none of your business to boot. Guess what? Sometimes you have to pick one side or the other.

Do you believe that abortion is wrong? Do you think abortion is killing? Do you think that killing is wrong? Do you believe that people have a right to abortions? Do you believe that killing should remain outlawed?Do you think that people have no right to choose whether or not to kill?

From what I can tell, your answers are yes, yes, yes, yes and yes, and I find that to be a mess of contradictions.