Abortion

Originally posted by LighterFluid
I'm not sure that this is possible. If you have a personal view on a political issue, then it's a political view. The whole point of having a democratic political system is so that you can have a small say in what goes on in your country and use your personal views to try and change your country. What do you do on voting day? Do you just ask somebody who they're voting for and then vote for the same person?

Oh Brother 🙄

1)Abortion- is not just a political issue. It is also a moral one, it is also a social one, it is also a religious one, it is also a matter of life and death, it is so much more than just a political issue.

2) You can be personally against something, but not be politically against something. To be politically against something means you want to make a change in that issue, it means you either want to ban it, strengthen it, whatever..as long as your actions have a socially wide effect.

To be personally against something is to not agree with it, or to dislike the idea of it, but not to have the desire to actively do something against it...especially when it is only your opinion, and so many OTHER factors are involved.

3) Again you are bringing up the whole "this is only a political issue" when you bring up Democracy. Abortion is not JUST a political issue.

Originally posted by LighterFluid
Let's dig up the jay-walking example again. I imagine that you would think that jay-walking is not as immoral as murder, just as you think that abortion is not as immoral as murder. Is jay-walking wrong? Sure it is. Should it be punished with jail time? No - a much smaller punishment will fit the action. If something is wrong, then it should be punished. The punishment doesn't have to be large. The punishment's severity can depend on the severity of the action. If abortion is wrong, then it should be punished.

Again you are trying to force your own logic down my throat, and it aint gonna work 👇 ❌

So get over it.

Just because I think something is wrong according to my own moral standards does not mean I think it is wrong by universal standards. That also does not warrant that I beleive the person should be punished.

Like I said to AC, i am against the ACT itself, not the woman doing it. I have no idea why every individual woman would undergo the Abortion. Who am I to JUDGE the woman? And on top of that, WHO THE HELL ARE YOU OR I TO PUNISH the woman for it?

Originally posted by LighterFluid
I live in a black and white world as far as right and wrong goes. Wrong things should be punished, right things should be allowed. I believe that there are different degrees of immorality, though and that punishments should be scaled according to how immoral an action is.

Well then THAT's YOU. I don't live in the same BLACK and WHITE WORLD you do, in ANY ISSUE.

Originally posted by LighterFluid
You are a hypocrite because you think that abortion is wrong, but you treat it as if it was right (you don't think that any punishment should be given, not even a small one).

P.S. I am not Whob, Capt_Fantastic

I am no hypocrit, nice try 👇

Just because I do not follow the notion that every wrong should be punished, does not lessen my beleif in the idea that something could be morally wrong.❌

You are trying to force your idea of how a wrong should be handled down my throat. I disagree with you entirely.

I am PRO CHOICE...not PRO LIFE...not PRO ABORTION....what's so hard for you to comprehend? Are you THAT black and white in mentality, or does your MIND LACK that much flexibility?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Well then THAT's YOU.

And that's what this issue really boils down to.

Political aspect aside, it's the persons descision. For you it's a moral matter...so we can assume that you will never get an abortion. But, it's not a moral issue for another person.

As it stands right now in the United States, abortion is a matter left up to the individual. What the religious right is trying to do is write their bible into law. And it's funny how there are plenty of dead babies in the bible.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am PRO CHOICE...not PRO LIFE...not PRO ABORTION....what's so hard for you to comprehend? Are you THAT black and white in mentality, or does your MIND LACK that much flexibility?

its obvious from your manner of hypothetically anecdotal debating (selfish whore kills fetuses) that you have your own prejudices toward women who get abortions. thats always been my gripe with you in this thread, and the reason people view you as a conservative and pro-life.

and once again: there is no such thing as pro-abortion, so thats a useless distinction

Originally posted by PVS
its obvious from your manner of hypothetically anecdotal debating (selfish whore kills fetuses) that you have your own prejudices toward women who get abortions. thats always been my gripe with you in this thread, and the reason people view you as a conservative and pro-life.

and once again: there is no such thing as pro-abortion, so thats a useless distinction

1) I NEVER called the woman who gets an abortion a "whore", i never made a judgement on a woman who gets an abortion. I clearly stated my opinion that I feel it is immoral.

Don't put words in my mouth

It's a really pathetic attempt to try and debase my arguments, but then again you usually do resort to childish and pathetic behavior, thinking you can substitute it for an ACTUAL debate..... 🙄

2) I do not have prejudices towards women who get abortions...if i KNEW women who got abortions, maybe I would. But I don't know any really ❌.

I condemn the ACT itself, not the person. 😉

3) I am not conservative, calling me conservative is like me calling you a Liberal Extremist. You have no weight in the matter to call me a conservative, and I am not pro life.

Pro-Abortion does exist, it's been mentioned since the very beginning of this thread.

People who are Pro-Abortion feel there is NOTHING wrong with Abortion, and in fact encourage it.

I only defend the right to choose to have an abortion ( to choose almost anything for that matter) , i don't encourage The Abortion Act itself.

Originally posted by autumn dreams
I have a question for all of you: What do you think about women who brag about having had an abortion?

Bad idea to use abortion as birth-control. But it happens… And she runs the very real risk of becoming sterile if she continues to use abortion as birth control.
But what would you do, autumn dreams?

Originally posted by Imaginary
Nooo.....I dont have a Yes/No answer on abortions, it would depend on the circumstances involved at the time etc....but that particular person was bragging about having abortions and refused to use protection, using abortion as the answer. Sounds like the type of person who doesnt give a **** as long as they get what they want in the end. My post is mainly, people like that should see how misfortunate others are before bragging and doing it all the time instead of just using protection from the start.

No, people like “that” should not see any damn thing before they brag. How do we know bragging took place? Because autumn dreams mother THOUGHT so??? Circumstantial evidence at BEST!
I’m all behind PVS’ reply here. It’s not EITHER good girls or evil whores. And neither can be used in the case for or against the freedom of women to decide what happens to THEIR own bodies and THEIR own lives.

Lord Urizen> What? Did you give up already? Oh, well…

Some facts: Alcohol kills more people than illegal drugs.
The more accessible abortions are in a country, the fewer are performed.

Illegal drugs are being taken despite their illegality. Abortions are being performed in countries were they are illegal. Obviously making these things illegal will not stop people from using them…

The usual question on illegal drugs is :”Would you start junking up if heroine was legal and you knew the consequences?”

Originally posted by The Omega
Nope, I was hoping you’d loose the anti-abortion rhetoric and take a STAND for yourself. You keep shifting.

1) I do stand for myself. I persisantly defend my position as being Pro-Choice, not pro-life or pro-abortion. 😉

Originally posted by The Omega
Sorry, Urizen, you can’t make me mad, you’re just a KMC-poster with a not always completely clear opinion on the subject. I hope I don’t disappoint you.

1) Clarity-I have made myself as clear as possible, repeatedly at that. If you are still confused, then that is due to your lack of mental flexibility and a possible lack of awareness of how black and white your mentality may be.

2) You could never dissapoint me. You owe me nothing, likewise you are simply a username to me. ✅

Originally posted by The Omega

1) Where is your proof?
2) No, abortion is the removal of a foetus. A foetus is not a child yet. Therefore abortion is not killing a child.

1) My proof of what? That the foetus is it's mother's offspring? DO I REALLY NEED PROOF? 🙄

2) The Foetus is an unborn child. What part don't you get? Abortion is the killing of an unborn child.

Originally posted by The Omega
Massive interviews you have heard??? Ah, yes… And I tell you hormonal turmoil causes post-abortion depressions. And of course – with people like you around to tell an already hormonally depressed girl/woman that she is a KILLER… oh, the good you do. Do you feel good about yourself?
Did you notices the “sounds like”?? I did not SAY you were religious… I say you’re beginning to sound like…
“I would never put a woman down…” “not ban… not judge” “Abortion is immoral.”… This is hypocritical, Urizen. Make up your mind.
And no, they don’t kill their sons and daughters… A foetus is a cluster of cells, Urizen. Are you saying a woman who kills her 3 year old daughter is to be compared to a woman who has an abortion??

1) Get this straight...i would never tell a woman who had an abortion that she is a murderer...that is not even my opinion..i would keep my opinion to myself in that case

I even asked you if I ever called you anything or made any judgement on you personally for having your Abortion?...you have yet to answer. I think you are jumping to conclusions here OR your getting too sensitive about this. ✅

Just Relax ✅

2) A Feotus is the child of its mother. The Gender does not develop fully, so whether the foetus is male or female takes time to decipher. But the X and Y chromosomes are there already...therefore the result of whether or not the child will be son or daughter is still definate.

Is a 20 year old man no longer his mother's child?

I think we are using the word child in different meanings. Would you rather I refer to the Foetus as its mother's OFFSPRING?

3) No. A mother murdering her 3 year old daughter is worse than a woman having an abortion, because the 3 year old daughter is self aware, can feel pain both physically and emotionally.

A foetus can't. The only wrong in killing a foetus, in my opinion, is that you are killing a life for your own convienence.

It's not as extreme to me as killing a child who already has thier life and identity intact.

Originally posted by The Omega
Sorry, but I do not view a woman as a mother when she’s in the 4th week. I view a woman with a child in her arms as the mother of the child.
The foetus will eventually mature into a child.
And what is that with the BORN sons and mothers dying of cancer??? I have no clue what you mean?

1) Your views are just as valid or invalid as my views. Neither of ours are absolute. So why bother fussing over that?

2) I don't get your second question...

Originally posted by The Omega
I do not consider a foetus a child yet, Urizen.

I do....it's the mother's offspring. You can't deny that. You treat it as if it's a peice of feces or something, like it's that disposable. 🙄

But whatever....we obviously are using different defintions

Originally posted by The Omega
You may not accept that that is what you want unfortunate pregnant women to BE, Urizen, but if you tell them to give birth and give the child up for adoption, that is essentially what you’re making them.
What argument? That the women should do whatever the hell she wants??? That is not an argument.

1) No....again you don't get it...you keep putting words in my mouth.

I said a pregnant woman CAN give birth and settle for adoption. I never said she should.

2) I think ALL OPTIONS should be made available, not just one. In the end, I beleive her choice is all that matters.

I just think her choice should be a definate, educated, and thought out one. 😉

Originally posted by The Omega
You may think what you want, Urizen. I am merely telling you’re my position and giving you arguments to show you were I stand. When did I say my standpoint was more valid or correct than yours??
How can I dictate anyone’s choice by saying what I would rather want??? I’m not world dictator, Urizen. You’re dodging my points but saying I somehow want to dictate anything: I would first of all rather that children were BORN to parents who want them and look forward to having them. That the parents are ready and willing for the responsibility. If the time is not right, then “no”, then I think the couple/woman should wait until their/her life are better. The lives of living people, who are someones lover/spouse/brother/sister/etc. should always come before a bunch of cells that will have such a large impact on their lives.

1) I agree that the lives of an already living human being are more valuable than that of a foetus. But that doesn't make it absolute that the foetus is worth nothing...as you seem to be suggesting.

I still think Abortion is wrong, hence why I said it can be " a necessary evil".

I beleive that sometimes you have to make the "immoral" decision for a better future.

Originally posted by The Omega
You view abortion as immoral. That – by definition – means you’d rather ALL pregnancies resulted in birth. That is definitely about the QUANTITY and NOT the QUALITY of life.
Where do I say that a child born to parents who want it is ensured happiness and quality?? Please, show me that. I would like to ensure the chances are better. And that those wanting to adopt kids first look in countries where there is starvation, poverty and war.
So by suddenly making ALL kinds of peculiar assumptions as to WHAT I mean (instead of asking me if in doubt) you remain in your world of absolutes. I do not.

You seem to be more in the world of Absolutes than myself. You who demand I take an ALL OR NOTHING type of stance, as you are.

No thanks....my greyish opinion seems valid to me.✅

There you go again, defining my stance to better suit your understanding of it.

I never said i would RATHER all women give birth. Just because i thnk something is immoral, does not mean i don't think it should EVER occur.

Do you remember that i ALSO think the woman should HAVE the choice? And I specifically said that it would be even WORSE to FORCE childbirth......you just LOVE to ignore that.

You love to ignore fractions of my stance, and emphasize on what you see as the negative...to make your own point seem more valid.

Pathetic 👇

Originally posted by The Omega
How can you THINK abortion is immoral (as ALL actions are maybe either MORAL or IMMORAL??) and then be pro-choice? I think AC already adequately described what that makes you. I’ll merely second his post.

Because I beleive that CHOICE should be allowed...whether it be the "moral" choice, or the "immoral" choice.

So easy for YOU to be pro-choice, when you think there's nothing WRONG with Abortion.

So if you thought something was WRONG, you would BAN everyone else from doing it, just because it doesn't conform to YOU opinion?

But if something is morally right in your opinion, THEN you're all for freedom of CHOICE 😆

The HYPOCRIT here is YOU, not myself.

I also do not see Abortion as immoral as something like Rape, Torture, or murder. Therefore I see no need to BAN it.

//Lord_Urizen.cpp

#include <iostream.h>

int main() {
int response;
char argument[100];

cout << "Please enter your argument: ";
cin.getline(argument,100,'\n'😉;

response = rand() % 3 + 1;
if (response == 1) {
cout << "I am PRO CHOICE...not PRO LIFE...not PRO ABORTION....what's so hard for you to comprehend? \n";
}else if (response == 2) {
cout << "I don't live in the same BLACK and WHITE WORLD you do \n";
}else {
cout << "I condemn the ACT itself, not the person. \n";
}
cout << "Please come back and debate me again some time! \n";

system ("PAUSE"😉;
return 0;
}

😂 ROFLFALAFEL

Originally posted by LighterFluid
//Lord_Urizen.cpp

#include <iostream.h>

int main() {
int response;
char argument[100];

cout << "Please enter your argument: ";
cin.getline(argument,100,'\n'😉;

response = rand() % 3 + 1;
if (response == 1) {
cout << "I am PRO CHOICE...not PRO LIFE...not PRO ABORTION....what's so hard for you to comprehend? \n";
}else if (response == 2) {
cout << "I don't live in the same BLACK and WHITE WORLD you do \n";
}else {
cout << "I condemn the ACT itself, not the person. \n";
}
cout << "Please come back and debate me again some time! \n";

system ("PAUSE"😉;
return 0;
}

NICE 😉

The responses just keep getting more and more pathetic. 👇 😆

Originally posted by The Omega
Bad idea to use abortion as birth-control. But it happens… And she runs the very real risk of becoming sterile if she continues to use abortion as birth control.
But what would you do, autumn dreams?

I would never have an abortion, to be honest. Actually, I would, but it would depend on the circumstances. I would certainly never dream of using abortion as a method of birth control-it baffles me how some women do.

Originally posted by crazylozer
LF's previous post kinda went over your head. It's kind of an extension of Lord Urizen's flawed logic. I'll make mine more clear:

Hmm, I choose to kill those twenty people over there. Is it wrong? Well, the general public may think so, but since I choose to, and believe that it's right, what gives the populace the right to infringe upon my right to choose?

But here's the thing: if you believe something's wrong, you don't have to actively punish people. (Really, don't go bombing abortion clinics, please) However, you can take a stand; you can tell people why you think it's wrong; you can can vote for politicians who share your view. But DON'T claim that you are okay with it. That's just hypocritical.

Thanks, you make a lot of sense! 😉

Originally posted by LighterFluid
//Lord_Urizen.cpp

#include <iostream.h>

int main() {
int response;
char argument[100];

cout << "Please enter your argument: ";
cin.getline(argument,100,'\n'😉;

response = rand() % 3 + 1;
if (response == 1) {
cout << "I am PRO CHOICE...not PRO LIFE...not PRO ABORTION....what's so hard for you to comprehend? \n";
}else if (response == 2) {
cout << "I don't live in the same BLACK and WHITE WORLD you do \n";
}else {
cout << "I condemn the ACT itself, not the person. \n";
}
cout << "Please come back and debate me again some time! \n";

system ("PAUSE"😉;
return 0;
}

...someone took just a little too much time writing this...

I think post-partum abortions should be legalized. 😕

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Pro-Abortion does exist, it's been mentioned since the very beginning of this thread.

People who are Pro-Abortion feel there is NOTHING wrong with Abortion, and in fact encourage it.

show me a single person here who supports abortions and encourages them. this is just a fairy tale you pulled out of your ass, and proof of what i am saying. so dont talk to me about putting words in other peoples' mouths.

going off of PVS. the movement is called Pro-Choice and not Pro-Abortion for a reason.

And if you think its merely becuase it sounds better...(not like pro-death)
Pro-lifers dont give a darn about life, because they'd rather have the mother die than let her kill a clump of cells.

I wasn't aware of that, 387 pages in.

-AC

I'm always glad to shine the light a little brighter 😕

Sorry if I made your evening redundant.

Originally posted by Alliance
they'd rather have the mother die than let her kill a clump of cells.

The Catholic church has cannonized people for just this kind of stupidity.

Originally posted by PVS
show me a single person here who supports abortions and encourages them.

Pro choicers support choice. They don't have to actually support the abortion, but they can support the womans decision to make a choice which is best for her.

Originally posted by Alliance
And if you think its merely becuase it sounds better...(not like pro-death)
Pro-lifers dont give a darn about life, because they'd rather have the mother die than let her kill a clump of cells.

All of my pro life friends, and I have a few, would support the womans decision to abort in special circumstances. I can think of no one who would put the life of an fetus before the mother-but I haven't met every pro lifer, so I don't know. I like to think there are not people like that out there, but sadly, there is.