Originally posted by PVS
show me a single person here who supports abortions and encourages them. this is just a fairy tale you pulled out of your ass, and proof of what i am saying. so dont talk to me about putting words in other peoples' mouths.
Warning: No black or whites. No absolutes in this argument.
So can we all just agree that abortion is only manslaughter in some cases, and premeditated murder in others?
Urizen>
1) Pro-choice and with the right to condemn those who use the choice?? That just sounds... hypocritical in my ears, you know?
2) No proof? As I thought...
3) Is it very important to you to USE the words UNBORN child (cue choir) instead of the simple word foetus?
4) If you tried telling a woman who had an abortion that she is a murderer that would be slander, since abortion is not murder as we have already established countless times, yes? It is NOT your opinion??? Right then... Then what is???
5) Since I do not know you, your personal opinion on my choice does not concern me. But IF you were my friend, and I knew you judged me for my choice, that would make me sad, yes.
6) Since a foetus in the 12-week period were abortions are legal is just a small cluster of cells, why is it so important to you to use words as SONS and DAUGHTERS (cue choir again)??
Once the woman gives birth, there is the child - Now able to breate independently, no longer in the womb AND also wanted by the woman/couple.
How can a 20-year old man not be his mother's child?
(We may be using words with different definitions in mind, it's customary to refer to unborn babies as foetuses around here...=DK)
7) Also, a foetus is not an independent lifeform either. It is PART of the woman's body, and since the body belongs to the WOMAN what happens to her body is her choice.
Do you want women to sacrifice their "convinience" because of an accident?
If a couple wants to adopt, is it not better they find a poor, starving child in the 3rd world and give IT a chance. It IS born, it HAS a life, it IS aware of it's hunger and misery? Or will you insist on the unfortunate woman in the 1st world to give birth?
8) You wrote about BORN sons and mothers dying of cancer??? I have no clue what you mean?
9) Yes, an unfortunate pregnant woman CAN choose to give birth and give her child away for adoption. So 9 months pregnancy, post-birth hormonal trauma of loosing the child? You are hard and uncaring for the WOMAN, Urizen.
10) Yes, all options should be there.
11) When did I say my standpoint was more valid or correct than yours??
A foetus can be valauble or NOT depending on the circumstance, Urizen. It is not either/or. When I became pregnant at the "ripe" age of 19, it was merely an inconvinienze to me, an unfortunate accident and I had no second thoughts about the abortion. I was not even in uni yet at the time. But to a woman/couple who WANTS a child, that bunch of cells will be very important to them and they're happy. This is how it should be... Life does not necessarily equal good!
12) I just want you to TAKE stand. To me, it seems you're tip-toeing between pro-choice and anti-abortion by saying "yes to immoral choices."
Well, maybe we're different. The things I consider immoral, I would never do, nor just sit by a let happen if I could change it.
My problem, Urizen, is exactly in your "YES to immoral choices." You will not take the heat from going anti-abortion, but also reserve your right to JUDGE women who have an abortion. And you ARE judging them the moment you say abortion is immoral. You can't dodge that fact, I can see that you try... And that, Urizen, is pathetic. Me pointing out the CONSEQUENCES of your stance is not.
13) There is a difference between thinking something is WRONG and that something is IMMORAL, Urizen. Do you know the difference?? I think for example that the DEATH PENALTY is immoral, and if I had the chance, I'd "outlaw" it, yes. I think taking drugs is WRONG, but realise that only education and social changes will eventually get rid of this problem, so that I would NOT ban. I'd educate educate educate.
I'm not the one who BROUGHT morals into this debate, Urizen. It was you, and with that the absolutes of moral - immoral. In MY world, there are things between the two... But I suppose that is beyond you.
Sorry, my stand is clear and precise, so prove I am a hypocrite. IF you can 😆
Originally posted by autumn dreams
I would never have an abortion, to be honest. Actually, I would, but it would depend on the circumstances. I would certainly never dream of using abortion as a method of birth control-it baffles me how some women do.
I meant, what would you do with the woman who supposedly used anortion as birth-control?
Originally posted by The Omega
I meant, what would you do with the woman who supposedly used anortion as birth-control?
Women do use abortion as birth control-thankfully there are not many, but they are out there. I couldn't take that choice away from them, they are free to do as they please-I could only hope they wake up to themselves and start becoming more responsible.
Originally posted by Gay Guy
So can we all just agree that abortion is only manslaughter in some cases, and premeditated murder in others?
Erm...well, as these fine people have been saying, abortion is not murder (I think different, but so what).
How can abortion be manslaughter and murder? Make up your mind so I can think of a comeback...
Originally posted by Gay Guy
Warning: No black or whites. No absolutes in this argument.So can we all just agree that abortion is only manslaughter in some cases, and premeditated murder in others?
??? Even if such terms were somehow applicable (which they aren't) they would be wrong.
Unless this refers to cases where a pregnant women has been harmed in a way that has caused the loss of the unborn. However such cases are lite on precedent, and are a very different part of the legal system then abortion.
So no, no matter how one feels about abortion it is not manslaughter or premeditated murder in any legal or social sense.
OMEGA
I suppose we are very different, so different it is difficult for us to understand each other's stances/objections.
For me immoral does NOT equal evil.To me, Murder, Torture, and control ARE EVIL......drug taking, abortion, harassment, lying...those things to me are immoral, but not "evil".
I think we are using the SAME WORDS, but in totally different intepretations and contexts.
1) Let me ASSURE you that I am in NO WAY judging a woman, nor INTENDING to judge a woman who has an abortion. I do not know any woman personally who has done so. BELIEVING that abortion is immoral, does not warrant ANY judgement on the woman HERSELF. YOU are the one thinking in terms of ABSOLUTES by INSISTING that I am judging women in general, by thinking that Abortion is immoral.....there is no RELIGIOUS bias on my part...i already clearly stated i am Liberal and non-religious.
AGAINNNNN....you keep trying to insist that MORALITY is a RELIGIOUS THING..and it is NOT. MORALITY IS INDEPENDENT OF RELIGION.....everyone's morality and moral opinions are thier OWN and RIGHT TO HAVE.
You can think something is morally wrong WITHOUT putting judgement on the PERSON who commits those acts.
FYI...i go against MY OWN MORALS ALL THE TIME !!!!!!!!! Does that mean I JUDGE MYSELF? HELL NO it simply means i am AWARE that i don't always do the "right thing"---notice i put quotations.....meaning i do not refer to them as absolutes.
2) The Feotus-unborn Child-offspring- ALL THE SAME THING....you keep trying to equate the Feotus with a piece of crap. That may work for you in justifying Abortion is A-Okay, but you are dancing around a valid truth.....The Foetus is NOT just part of it's mother's body/identity.
The FEOTUS is a DEPENDENT LIFEFORM, YES.....but that does not make it just a PART of its mother....the Foetus has its OWN BODY connected to its mother only through the PLACENTA...this is a fact you keep trying to IGNORE for the sake of your own argument. If you are going to look at this issue, LOOK AT ALL THE FACTS..not just the ones you deem convienent for you.
The Feotus/unborn child/offspring is still its OWN LIFEFORM...it is a mix of EGG AND SPERM....not a TUMOR.....not just a cluster of cells.....not just a part of the woman's body.....not a part of the woman's person. It's a NEW LIFE....dependent ? YES.....attached? Yes......just a part of its mother? NO ❌
3) You want me to take a stance? Okay, I'm PRO CHOICE ✅ for the millionth time.
"No you're not Urizen....you think Abortion is wrong and immoral. How can you truly be pro choice?"
Because Omega my freind, I think it would be even worse to FORCE childbirth. I think it would be more immoral to FORCE a woman to undergo the PAIN of childbirth. To undergo the bodily mutiliation.
Abortion is a more complicated matter than you are suggesting it to be. ✅ A ONE SIDED OPINION IS INDEED AN IGNORANT ONE in this case........I would rather ALLOW the LESSER of "two evils" to occur. Abortion to ME seems LESS immoral than FORCING childbirth through banning abortion.
Besides, If I WERE to BAN Abortion...it would SOLVE NOTHING.It would most likely make things a LOT WORSE.....
"Urizen..you naughty boy...you are living in a world of Absolutes...you are a hypocrit...yada yada yada yada"
WRONG 👇....I have every right to my opinion. It seems to me that YOU are living in the world of absolutes because:
A) You deem if something be immoral, it is also EVIL, and NEEDS TO BE BANNED !
B) You are only pro choice, if the choices are "Good" ones. 🙄
C) You seem to think that MORALITY is only something that RELIGIOUS people deal with.....tsk tsk tsk
D) You are basically telling me that If I am going to be pro choice, that I need to think Abortion is A-Okay.....that If I am going to be LIBERAL i should be as LIBERAL in mentality AS POSSIBLE ! And if i am not 100% Liberal, than i can only be a religious conservative
The bigger hypocrisy is coming form YOU, not ME ❌
Originally posted by Lord UrizenI suppose we are very different, so different it is difficult for us to understand each other's stances/objections.
For me [b]immoral
does NOT equal evil.To me, Murder, Torture, and control ARE EVIL......drug taking, abortion, harassment, lying...those things to me are immoral, but not "evil".I think we are using the SAME WORDS, but in totally different intepretations and contexts.
1) Let me ASSURE you that I am in NO WAY judging a woman, nor INTENDING to judge a woman who has an abortion. I do not know any woman personally who has done so. BELIEVING that abortion is immoral, does not warrant ANY judgement on the woman HERSELF. YOU are the one thinking in terms of ABSOLUTES by INSISTING that I am judging women in general, by thinking that Abortion is immoral.....there is no RELIGIOUS bias on my part...i already clearly stated i am Liberal and non-religious.
AGAINNNNN....you keep trying to insist that MORALITY is a RELIGIOUS THING..and it is NOT. MORALITY IS INDEPENDENT OF RELIGION.....everyone's morality and moral opinions are thier OWN and RIGHT TO HAVE.
You can think something is morally wrong WITHOUT putting judgement on the PERSON who commits those acts.
FYI...i go against MY OWN MORALS ALL THE TIME !!!!!!!!! Does that mean I JUDGE MYSELF? HELL NO it simply means i am AWARE that i don't always do the "right thing"---notice i put quotations.....meaning i do not refer to them as absolutes.
2) The Feotus-unborn Child-offspring- ALL THE SAME THING....you keep trying to equate the Feotus with a piece of crap. That may work for you in justifying Abortion is A-Okay, but you are dancing around a valid truth.....The Foetus is NOT just part of it's mother's body/identity.
The FEOTUS is a DEPENDENT LIFEFORM, YES.....but that does not make it just a PART of its mother....the Foetus has its OWN BODY connected to its mother only through the PLACENTA...this is a fact you keep trying to IGNORE for the sake of your own argument. If you are going to look at this issue, LOOK AT ALL THE FACTS..not just the ones you deem convienent for you.
The Feotus/unborn child/offspring is still its OWN LIFEFORM...it is a mix of EGG AND SPERM....not a TUMOR.....not just a cluster of cells.....not just a part of the woman's body.....not a part of the woman's person. It's a NEW LIFE....dependent ? YES.....attached? Yes......just a part of its mother? NO ❌
3) You want me to take a stance? Okay, I'm PRO CHOICE ✅ for the millionth time.
"No you're not Urizen....you think Abortion is wrong and immoral. How can you truly be pro choice?"
Because Omega my freind, I think it would be even worse to FORCE childbirth. I think it would be more immoral to FORCE a woman to undergo the PAIN of childbirth. To undergo the bodily mutiliation.
Abortion is a more complicated matter than you are suggesting it to be. ✅ A ONE SIDED OPINION IS INDEED AN IGNORANT ONE in this case........I would rather ALLOW the LESSER of "two evils" to occur. Abortion to ME seems LESS immoral than FORCING childbirth through banning abortion.
Besides, If I WERE to BAN Abortion...it would SOLVE NOTHING.It would most likely make things a LOT WORSE.....
"Urizen..you naughty boy...you are living in a world of Absolutes...you are a hypocrit...yada yada yada yada"
WRONG 👇....I have every right to my opinion. It seems to me that YOU are living in the world of absolutes because:
A) You deem if something be immoral, it is also EVIL, and NEEDS TO BE BANNED !
B) You are only pro choice, if the choices are "Good" ones. 🙄
C) You seem to think that MORALITY is only something that RELIGIOUS people deal with.....tsk tsk tsk
D) You are basically telling me that If I am going to be pro choice, that I need to think Abortion is A-Okay.....that If I am going to be LIBERAL i should be as LIBERAL in mentality AS POSSIBLE ! And if i am not 100% Liberal, than i can only be a religious conservative
The bigger hypocrisy is coming form YOU, not ME ❌ [/B]
From dictionary.com
Evil: morally bad or wrong
Immoral: violating principles of right and wrong
Hmm, sounds like immoral and evil mean the same thing, no?
1) You just seem to be rambling on about nothing. Yes, you are indeed judging when you see someone do something immoral. To judge means to form an opinion or idea of something based on consideration. So unless you don't recognize that a person did anything wrong, you realize that the person did something wrong. Since wrong and right are opinionated...yes, you do judge people.
2) You just don't get it. Is a foetus have its own life or not? If it does, then is it human? If it is human, then getting rid of it is killing. Following that, abortion is the equivalent of killing a person.
Here is the big idea. Try to keep up.
A foetus may or may not be a human being. There are arguments either way. If you do indeed believe that it is so, then you should logically equate abortion with killing. If you then oppose killing, you should oppose abortion. Pro-choice advocates, for the most part, do not believe that foetuses are living people; thus they can believe that abortion is not wrong while simultaneously believing that killing is wrong.
3) See above, and try to see why everyone is repeating the same point in order to make you understand.
4) A) See above
B) Duh! Not many support the right of people who choose to murder others.
C) No one said that; don't put words in other peoples mouths.
D) Not everything is about Liberal and Conservative. No one is throwing around those terms; you simply are drawing lines around people, sorting them into groups from what you believe to be the respective groups. In truth, the two camps of thought are ambiguous, with no real definitions. People are merely pointing out the flaws in your logic.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Stop it, just stop mentioning the word "Murder". It has no place here, just stop it.It's factually not, you have no say in the matter.
-AC
What about something like, say, euthanasia? The law makes it illegal because it is thought to be murder, isn't it? Does that mean all those who think it is not murder are wrong? 😕