Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
actually, I can say this all I want, because I am not out there burning down abortion clinics.
you guys think that by being prolife I am trying to force my views on others. Fine, I get that. What if I said to you that by being prochoice you are trying to force your beliefs on others? it works both ways. Put the shoe on the other foot before you put it in your mouth and spout off with a bunch of psychobabble about me forcing my views.
You not burning down clinics doesn't mean you're not forcing beliefs on people, it means you're not a psychopath.
Also, it most certainly does NOT go both ways. I said before; By being pro-choice we are voting for the woman to do OR NOT DO whatever she sees fit. Go through with an abortion or NOT. We're simply voting for the choice to do or not to do.
YOU are voting to pass a law that would force away one of her options, due to your personal beliefs. So yes, you are forcing your beliefs on people.
You, a man who claimed he loves America for its freedom. You're a flaming hypocrite.
-AC
We are not taking a woman's choice at all away.You are the ones forcing it down her throat and saying sure kill the baby or keep it alive.
Either way you are scott free.Nothing you did is wrong or sinful it is the woman's choice to kill a human being or to kill one self or steal a car!
That is basicly what you pro-abortion people are saying.JM
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
actually, I can say this all I want, because I am not out there burning down abortion clinics.
you guys think that by being prolife I am trying to force my views on others. Fine, I get that. What if I said to you that by being prochoice you are trying to force your beliefs on others? it works both ways. Put the shoe on the other foot before you put it in your mouth and spout off with a bunch of psychobabble about me forcing my views.
No by being pro choice you are not forcing opinions on others. The opinion is that people should have a choice whether they want to keep their unborn child, or not. The pro life view makes them have to keep it. They are left without other options, which means they are being forced to do something. However with the pro choice view, it is up to the person.
The real issue in all this is the use of terms like "prochoice" or "prolife". One, "prolife", allows for no individual freedom, no individual 'choice'. The vote for "prolife" is the only one that infringes upon the freedoms of another human being to make up their mind themselves. Being "prochoice" allows another to make up their mind on their own. So, equating the reality of the situation is one thing, but make sure it's the real version of "truth".
Both are freedom depending on how you look at it.If you are Pro-abortion then you think that is the way to be.If you are pro-life then you think is also a freedom and that is how others should be.
Either way when both tihnk they are right.It is hard to say who is right and who is wrong!Devil you are pro-abortion there far according to you,you think that Pro-life people don't give others freedom.Now if you were pro-life then you would think the same.JM
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
And people like you who don't listen to anyone and think that all they say is true!jm
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
We are not taking a woman's choice at all away.You are the ones forcing it down her throat and saying sure kill the baby or keep it alive.
Either way you are scott free.Nothing you did is wrong or sinful it is the woman's choice to kill a human being or to kill one self or steal a car!
That is basicly what you pro-abortion people are saying.JM
jm, you are taking away a choice. Your desired pro-life law would force the woman to decide one way because you believe it's right.
You also say we're forcing a choice.......a CHOICE... down her throat. I needn't point out how.....interesting that is.
Again, please remove pro-abortion from your vocabulary. Noone here is pro-abortion. I think you'd be hardpressed to locate anyone on Earth who is pro-abortion actually.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You not burning down clinics doesn't mean you're not forcing beliefs on people, it means you're not a psychopath.Also, it most certainly does NOT go both ways. I said before; By being pro-choice we are voting for the woman to do OR NOT DO whatever she sees fit. Go through with an abortion or NOT. We're simply voting for the choice to do or not to do.
YOU are voting to pass a law that would force away one of her options, due to your personal beliefs. So yes, you are forcing your beliefs on people.
You, a man who claimed he loves America for its freedom. You're a flaming hypocrite.
-AC
Originally posted by Rogue JediNo one is twisting your words, no one is expecting you to change your beliefs, there is nothing to disprove. But you stating in a roundabout way that you would seek to impose your beliefs on others, failing to realise that you would indeed be forcing your beliefs upon others while having previously stated that you're not one of "those people, " means you are indeed a hypocrite.
I am not a hypocrite. And I never claimed to love America. What I see is you and a couple of others here expecting me to change my tune. Not gonna happen. I am not an activist, and I do not go out of my way to push my beliefs on others. I have an opinion on abortion and have voiced it. Unfortunately, you and your cronies think you own the GDF and try to dictate what goes on here, and when I fail to concede every point to you, you will continue to seek me out and quote me left and right, take what I say out of context, twist my words around hoping to disprove my beliefs.
You have stated that you would vote for the prohibition of abortion because you believe it's wrong.
That would be forcing your beliefs on others.
There are no complicated semantics, there is no ambiguity. Accept that based on your personal beliefs you would seek to oppress, and stop whining.
The rest of the above quote is just waa waa bullshit
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No one is twisting your words, no one is expecting you to change your beliefs, there is nothing to disprove. But you stating in a roundabout way that you would seek to impose your beliefs on others, failing to realise that you would indeed be forcing your beliefs upon others while having previously stated that you're not one of "those people, " means you are indeed a hypocrite.You have stated that you would vote for the prohibition of abortion because you believe it's wrong.
That would be forcing your beliefs on others.
There are no complicated semantics, there is no ambiguity. Accept that based on your personal beliefs you would seek to oppress.The rest of the above quote is just waa waa bullshit
A: She cannot afford the baby. She cannot afford the after birth expenses.
B: She is too young. ie: she is like 13 or 14.
C: By going through labor, she will endanger her own life. There will be a complication that will threaten her life.
D: She doesn't want to go through the physical discomfort of carrying the baby for nine months.
E: The baby will be born deformed, with various physical defects.
Now....what is your solution to the listed scenarios?
Originally posted by Rogue JediI'll take that as you finally accepting that you would try and impose your personal beliefs on others by attempting to enact an oppressive law, despite your vehement denial about being one of "those people."
OK, we are getting nowhere with this. let's try a different tact. From what I can tell, here are five of the more popular scenarios in which a woman might consider an abortion:
Originally posted by Rogue JediThe woman decides whether or not she will carry the pregnancy to term or have an abortion.
Now....what is your solution to the listed scenarios?
Originally posted by xmarksthespotyou can take it however the hell you want to take it. sure, I could have responded to you as a child, but I decided to point out my stance from a different point of view. for you to take me being a gentleman and throw it back in my face shows you are not wiling to acknowledge this.
I'll take that as you finally accepting that you would try and impose your personal beliefs on others by attempting to enact an oppressive law, despite your vehement denial about being one of "those people."
The woman decides whether or not she will carry the pregnancy to term or have an abortion.this is your answer for all five?
Originally posted by Rogue JediYou could have responded to what I posted at all. But you didn't. You chose to ignore the fact that you doth protest too much about not being one of "those people," when in fact as stated you would vote to prohibit abortion and ergo are one of "those people."
you can take it however the hell you want to take it. sure, I could have responded to you as a child, but I decided to point out my stance from a different point of view. for you to take me being a gentleman and throw it back in my face shows you are not wiling to acknowledge this. this is your answer for all five?
Then in some sort of attempt in vain to distract from this you post a series of scenarios, to which my response is exactly the same as it has been. Which doesn't in any way, shape or form change that you made contradictory and relatively hypocritical statements. All while attempting to project some sort of sanctimonious "maturity."
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I am not a hypocrite. And I never claimed to love America.
What you claimed is:
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I like living in this country for one reason only. Freedom.
What freedom? You're voting to rob the woman of her right to an abortion based on "Well...my opinion of abortion is that it should be banned.", based on? Nothing but your subjective morals. I fail to see why you feel you're not forcing beliefs, but I expect that to be dodged.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What I see is you and a couple of others here expecting me to change my tune. Not gonna happen. I am not an activist, and I do not go out of my way to push my beliefs on others. I have an opinion on abortion and have voiced it. Unfortunately, you and your cronies think you own the GDF and try to dictate what goes on here, and when I fail to concede every point to you, you will continue to seek me out and quote me left and right, take what I say out of context, twist my words around hoping to disprove my beliefs.
Nobody is expecting you to change anything, but you are being an ignorant hypocrite. You're forcing your beliefs on people and you won't admit it because you simply don't like the stigma that comes with it; Tough. You chose that stance, you deal with what comes with it, like...a man would do?
Don't make this debate about me or "cronies" just because you're getting crushed...again, please. Nobody here is twisting your words. You claim to not be forcing your beliefs and everyone here has proven how you are.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
honestly, we are outsiders looking in here. Unless we have been through this, our opinions matter very little. the people whose opinions we should listen to the most are the women and men who have been in a position where abortion was an option. just like everything else in life, we don't know 100% how we will react in any given situation until we are in it. For all I know, if my partner was pregnant, I might support her decision to have an abortion. maybe not. unless we have been there or done that, we have no idea what we will do.
Men have never been in the position where abortion was an option, I don't know if you passed biology.
Secondly, why are you weaselling out? It's not about who would do what. It's about YOU saying you'd not force beliefs, and then forcing beliefs, us calling you on it and you running away.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
you can take it however the hell you want to take it. sure, I could have responded to you as a child, but I decided to point out my stance from a different point of view. for you to take me being a gentleman and throw it back in my face shows you are not wiling to acknowledge this.
Oh stop being such a baby, for crying out loud. Everything always comes down to "I'm trying to be a gentleman." with you, as if we're all going to break out the violins. You are asking a lot of questions and answering none for yourself, so answer mine:
You claim you are not forcing beliefs, so what exactly do you think it would be to ban abortion based on your very own subjective morals and beliefs, that others may not adhere to?
Pro-choices are not voting to make her have an abortion, we're voting to make sure she can choose between adoption, keeping the baby for herself or abortion however she wishes. There are two options; Have the baby, or don't. We are making sure she has the chance to choose either of those. YOU are making sure she only has the option to choose one, based on a personal belief. You are forcing your beliefs and you are not man enough to admit it.
-AC
Originally posted by xmarksthespotby "those people" I mean the ones who picket abortion clinics and bomb them. What I am is a far cry from what they are. I was asked my opinion and i stated it. You disagree and cannot handle the fact that I could possibly disagree with you.
You could have responded to what I posted at all. But you didn't. You chose to ignore the fact that you doth protest too much about not being one of "those people," when in fact as stated you would vote to prohibit abortion and ergo are one of "those people."
Then in some sort of attempt in vain to distract from this you post a series of scenarios, to which my response is exactly the same as it has been. Which doesn't in any way, shape or form change that you made contradictory and relatively hypocritical statements. All while attempting to project some sort of sanctimonious "maturity."A hypothetical scenario was posted earlier by another member, the voting scenario. I was just following suit. The scenarios that I brought up are actually more valid, everyday occurences than some hypothetical "vote" that will never happen.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriI never said I loved America. I said I loved the freedom I have here. So you are back on the "you are forcing beliefs" tip? OK, here we go.......You claim that since I am a prolifer that I am forcing my beliefs on others. I now throw that back at you. You seem to think that since I would vote prolife in this ridiculous "voting" scenario that I am limiting a woman's rights. What about the unborn fetus? What about the fact that when a woman has an abortion, she takes away any and all chance of this fetus experiencing the joy of life? What if this fetus is to become an great leader, or a doctor, or some other great occupation? Which is the lesser of the following two evils: 1. Making a woman be uncomfortable for 9 months (at the end of which she can give up the baby for adoption if she doesn't want it) or 2. Robbing a potential living breathing being of a chance at life?
What you claimed is:[b]What freedom? You're voting to rob the woman of her right to an abortion based on "Well...my opinion of abortion is that it should be banned.", based on? Nothing but your subjective morals. I fail to see why you feel you're not forcing beliefs, but I expect that to be dodged.
[quote]
Don't make this debate about me or "cronies" just because you're getting crushed...again, please. no one is getting crushed here. this is not a competition. You take this way too seriously, man. And when others chime in it just fuels your ego. I just don't understand why you can't be like "OK....RJ believes this, so I am going to discuss it like an adult." No....you are like the high school bully, the crowd cheering you on, puffing your chest out.
Men have never been in the position where abortion was an option, I don't know if you passed biology.They can be the.....Father?
Secondly, why are you weaselling out? It's not about who would do what. It's about YOU saying you'd not force beliefs, and then forcing beliefs, us calling you on it and you running away.No one is weaselling out. Running away? so I leave for a few hours to shower and have dinner, so this means I am running away?
Oh stop being such a baby, for crying out loud. Everything always comes down to "I'm trying to be a gentleman." with you, as if we're all going to break out the violins.You don't come here to talk, you come here looking for windows of oppurtunity to bash other members. Somehow I have made it to the top of your list. And what is wrong with being polite and being a gentleman?
You claim you are not forcing beliefs, so what exactly do you think it would be to ban abortion based on your very own subjective morals and beliefs, that others may not adhere to?See the first part of this post.Pro-choices are not voting to make her have an abortion, we're voting to make sure she can choose between adoption, keeping the baby for herself or abortion however she wishes. There are two options; Have the baby, or don't. We are making sure she has the chance to choose either of those. YOU are making sure she only has the option to choose one, based on a personal belief. You are forcing your beliefs and you are not man enough to admit it.
-AC
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
by "those people" I mean the ones who picket abortion clinics and bomb them. What I am is a far cry from what they are. I was asked my opinion and i stated it. You disagree and cannot handle the fact that I could possibly disagree with you.
So you're somehow not forcing your beliefs simply because the distinction between you and them is that you aren't a murderer?
No, that doesn't work. Do you have another argument? Because none have made sense so far, regarding the "I'm not forcing my beliefs." debacle.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centaurisee my last post.
So you're somehow not forcing your beliefs simply because the distinction between you and them is that you aren't a murderer?No, that doesn't work. Do you have another argument? Because none have made sense so far, regarding the "I'm not forcing my beliefs." debacle.
-AC