Abortion

This is what happens when groups use PR friendly euphemisms to describe themselves.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Semantically "anti-choice" as illustrated above, is a more accurate terminology to describe people who wish to overturn Roe v. Wade, since the direct opposites of both "anti-abortion" and "pro-life" aren't applicable to the diametric opposition. People who are "pro-choice," are not "anti-life" nor "pro-abortion," they are accurately described as in support of the right to choose.

A prochoice vote does not violate anyone's autonomy nor does it impose any belief upon any particular group. It simply allows the option. A prochoice vote does not imply any judgement on whether abortion is right or wrong.

A "prolife" vote to ban abortion does violate autonomy, and does impose a set of beliefs upon all groups of people, whether or not they agree with those beliefs. It denies an option. It is just as accurately referred to as anti-choice.

Regardless of whether one subjectively thinks abortion is wrong or not, objectively, by voting to ban abortion based on a belief that it is wrong, one is imposing one's beliefs on others.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, and your next reply will be "That's what pro-choicers would be doing if they won.". To which I already asked you;

How, by voting for NOTHING more than a woman having an additional choice, are we oppressing pro-life beliefs? Considering that pro-lifers would still be free to not like abortion, and free to not have abortions.

Also, answer this;

What about if that foetus is born, becomes a woman and wants an abortion? You'd oppress the former-foetus you oppressed her mother to keep? What would be your solution there?

-AC

BTW: I know you could care less, but your new sig is kickin'.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The way a person lives, the way they carry themselves, it is in direct relation to their belief structure. Their beliefs have an impact on who they are as citizens of this world. If you do something to violate their belief structure, then they change as a person, they are forced to adapt, even if they are an outsider looking in. By the prolifers winning, the prochoicers belief structure is violated. By the prochoicers winning, the prolifers belief structure is violated. Either way, beliefs are being forced upon them that they do not want. Yes, I get that the prochoicers would be losing the right to abortion. But in the grander scheme of things, their beliefs would be intruded upon.

BTW: I know you could care less, but your new sig is kickin'.

A prolife vote attempts to insert a "belief structure" into legislation, prohibiting the procedure. Regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with the subjective belief of abortion being wrong, they no longer have the option. Their autonomy has been violated by a "belief structure" they don't necessarily subscribe to.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The way a person lives, the way they carry themselves, it is in direct relation to their belief structure. Their beliefs have an impact on who they are as citizens of this world. If you do something to violate their belief structure, then they change as a person, they are forced to adapt, even if they are an outsider looking in.

Feel free to post something that answers my question and isn't a stream of meaningless babble. What you just said has absolutely nothing to do with abortion or beliefs being oppressed.

Your life would not change because abortion isn't banned. Proof? It hasn't now, has it? You are living proof that pro-lifers can safely, comfortably and peacefully get along with life while abortion is legal, WHILE still holding an opinion of disliking it. Why is there any reason, therefore, to ban it? Like I said; would you ban all the TV programmes you don't like, but don't watch? No.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
By the prochoicers winning, the prolifers belief structure is violated. Either way, beliefs are being forced upon them that they do not want. Yes, I get that the prochoicers would be losing the right to abortion. But in the grander scheme of things, their beliefs would be intruded upon.

Why didn't you answer my question?

HOW, by pro-choicers winning, would our beliefs (The simple right for a woman to have more options.) be forced upon you? As said above, you are proof that pro-lifers can hold their opinion whilst abortion is legal, and still live life with no difference. Life isn't worse because abortion is legal, to you, is it? No. Right now, pro-choicers have it the way they want it, and as a pro-lifer, how is your life altered? It hasn't has it? So we can clearly see that the only reason people want to ban it is to force their beliefs, we do not.

You don't like abortion, you don't have to endorse it or endure it. That is you exercising your freedom, but others have the right to do so. Ergo; pro-lifers winning would be forcing beliefs, pro-choicers winning would not, as we are not right now.

Also, you dodged my OTHER question; what would you do if the foetus you fought to protect, the foetus you claimed deserved rights to life, grew up to want an abortion? Where would your allegiances lie?

I don't know if you're dodging because you realise you're wrong, and we're overwhelming you with evidence and reasoning, but you are dodging nonetheless. Please either stop dodging, or admit you're done.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Feel free to post something that answers my question and isn't a stream of meaningless babble. What you just said has absolutely nothing to do with abortion or beliefs being oppressed.

Your life would not change because abortion isn't banned. Proof? It hasn't now, has it? You are living proof that pro-lifers can safely, comfortably and peacefully get along with life while abortion is legal, WHILE still holding an opinion of disliking it. Why is there any reason, therefore, to ban it? Like I said; would you ban all the TV programmes you don't like, but don't watch? No.

Why didn't you answer my question?

HOW, by pro-choicers winning, would our beliefs (The simple right for a woman to have more options.) be forced upon you? As said above, you are proof that pro-lifers can hold their opinion whilst abortion is legal, and still live life with no difference. Life isn't worse because abortion is legal, to you, is it? No. Right now, pro-choicers have it the way they want it, and as a pro-lifer, how is your life altered? It hasn't has it? So we can clearly see that the only reason people want to ban it is to force their beliefs, we do not.

Also, you dodged my OTHER question; what would you do if the foetus you fought to protect, the foetus you claimed deserved rights to life, grew up to want an abortion? Where would your allegiances lie?

I don't know if you're dodging because you realise you're wrong, and we're overwhelming you with evidence and reasoning, but you are dodging nonetheless. Please either stop dodging, or admit you're done.

-AC

You didn't answer anything in that waffle.

Regardless of how dedicated one is to anti-abortion "cause." The fact that women have the right to decide whether they want to carry a pregnancy to term has no impact on their autonomy, no beliefs are being imposed to restrict their behaviour, they are not compelled to undergo the abortion procedure nor agree with it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It has everything to do with it. To say otherwise is just ludicrous.

It doesn't, because as X just showed you, and as I proved by example; The current state is one of pro-choice victory, and nobody other than insecure, oppressive idiots are suffering.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I am talking about prolifers who are so dedicated to their cause it is coming out of their ears. these are the people who are affected by it. Me? you are right, it has no affect on me whatsoever, that's why I would not vote unless forced to do so.

Yeah, and those people spending their moments getting upset because they cannot bear the thought of people doing stuff they dislike, because they chose religion, are idiots. What about religious folks who want to ban gay marriage, inter-racial marriage etc or anything else?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
If they wanted to have an abortion, then they have that right, under the current law. If it were to be banned, they wouldn't have that right simple as that.

But you would have it banned, if you had to, because you feel the foetus has rights to life. What good is that if you'll just oppress it later?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
How would I feel about it personally? Depends. Like I say, our stances on some issues can change in a heartbeat. I might be prochoice by then, and you could be prolife, you never know.

I just answered.

So you're a flip flopper? As expected.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It doesn't, because as X just showed you, and as I proved by example; The current state is one of pro-choice victory, and nobody other than insecure, oppressive idiots are suffering.

Yeah, and those people spending their moments getting upset because they cannot bear the thought of people doing stuff they dislike, because they chose religion, are idiots. What about religious folks who want to ban gay marriage, inter-racial marriage etc or anything else?

But you would have it banned, if you had to, because you feel the foetus has rights to life. What good is that if you'll just oppress it later?

So you're a flip flopper? As expected.

-AC

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You didn't answer anything in that waffle.

Regardless of how dedicated one is to anti-abortion "cause." The fact that women have the right to decide whether they want to carry a pregnancy to term has no impact on their autonomy, no beliefs are being imposed to restrict their behaviour, they are not compelled to undergo the abortion procedure nor agree with it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so you think that someone's belief structure has nothing to do with the person they are?

I don't think what kind of person you are has anything to do with this debate, probably because it doesn't.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I could care less about gay marriage. If gays want to marry, more power to them. And I am the least racist person I know. But you have to consider the impact abortion has on these people, even though you and I are not one of them. all aspects have to be considered. Just as I considered your scenario, you have to consider mine.

I am considering it. Gay marriage and inter-racial marriage has "impact" on those fiercely dedicate to fighting it also, because it too contradicts their own beliefs. What about them?

I don't care about what "impact" it has on them, mostly because it has no "impact" on anything besides their beliefs. "OH MY GOD! ABORTION?! THAT DOESN'T COINCIDE WITH WHAT I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE!", that's the only impact it has on their lives. It doesn't actually alter the way they live, and even if it does, it's because THEY cannot move on, not because something is actually stopping them from the outside. They obviously don't care what impact an abortion ban would have on millions of women. They have no right to do that.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
As I said before, nothing is set in stone. Beliefs change, just as people change.

Has nothing to do with anything. You and I know that your examples are bs, and that an abortion ban is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
no, I am a realist. I realize that people change, as I just said. life events could happen that change your views on everything. Religion, racism, and yes, even abortion.

So stick to your guns.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
But you have to consider the impact abortion has on these people, even though you and I are not one of them. all aspects have to be considered. Just as I considered your scenario, you have to consider mine.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't think what kind of person you are has anything to do with this debate, probably because it doesn't.

I am considering it. Gay marriage and inter-racial marriage has "impact" on those fiercely dedicate to fighting it also, because it too contradicts their own beliefs. What about them?

I don't care about what "impact" it has on them, mostly because it has no "impact" on anything besides their beliefs. "OH MY GOD! ABORTION?! THAT DOESN'T COINCIDE WITH WHAT I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE!", that's the only impact it has on their lives. It doesn't actually alter the way they live, and even if it does, it's because THEY cannot move on, not because something is actually stopping them from the outside. They obviously don't care what impact an abortion ban would have on millions of women. They have no right to do that.

Has nothing to do with anything. You and I know that your examples are bs, and that an abortion ban is ridiculous.

So stick to your guns.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Feel free to elaborate on how someone vehemently opposed to abortion is having their personal beliefs, behaviour and autonomy in life in general affected or altered as a direct result of the fact, that (other) women have the freedom to choose whether they carry a pregnancy to term, in any tangible and significant manner.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You really need an explaination for this?

Tell me how (other) women having the freedom to decide whether or not they will carry a pregnancy to term in their body, is currently impacting on the personal beliefs, personal behaviour, personal freedom and autonomy of someone who opposes abortion?

Tell me how (other) women having this autonomous decision to have or not have an abortion amounts to imposing a belief upon someone who continues to maintain a subjective belief that abortion is wrong regardless, and also feel free to elaborate on what exactly that imposed belief with regard to abortion, is.

Anyway be nice for a couple of days PVS and maybe I will add you.How about that?Sounds fair?Anyway pm me and we can talk that way.People who are pro-life don't force anyone not to have an abortion or anything li ke that.
No idea why pro-abortion people think we do.jm

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Anyway be nice for a couple of days PVS and maybe I will add you.How about that?Sounds fair?Anyway pm me and we can talk that way.People who are pro-life don't force anyone not to have an abortion or anything li ke that.
No idea why pro-abortion people think we do.jm

so we're on for that rim job? 😱 AWESOME!!!pvs 💃

💃

Uh not sure what you mean by that.No more insults or any mean comments and I will think abot it ok?jm

no, its no insult. and i promise i will shower first and scrub well.pvs

How did I earn a spot? 😖